My Wireless Rulings, Attempting to clear the ambiguity Options

[hobgoblin]

a gunfight can be way harder then you think if your not out to kill anything that moves. fisrt you have to id a potential threat, then you have to aim, and then fire. and then you have to ensure that the target is down before moving on or else you may risk him getting back up and shooting you in the back.

i still hinge this debate on the thing that its AR, not VR, that is used as the basis for most of the matrix chapter. this to me indicate that whoever wrote it wanted you to use AR most of the time, and VR if needed.

and one of the core concepts behind the new matrix rules was to give a way to have a hacker move with the rest of the team. but how do you do that if you have to drop into VR every other door to be effective?

so the matrix chapter is in dire need of more and better text. and i would prefer it to be in english. i see some people are collecting info of the german fanpro boards, but to me thats second hand info at best.

[Wiseman]

I think it falls more on the "if it sounds to good to be true, it probably is" category. Its more of a stretch that a spellcaster can make an even better (and cheaper) AR matrix hacker than even a wired hacker (one spell, 3BP, drain that doesn't affect matrix persona anyway).

I think people are just in love with
a) getting 4 passes (1 more than VR!)
and
b) immune to all black IC.

The immunity to black IC and being able to still see your enemy coming IS the advantage to AR, not matrix breaking speeds. If WR works because it speeds up perception, than a techno's overclocking would work for AR, and it explictly doesn't. I could argue my "system" is going faster all I want, but its meat-body speeds I get.

To see it for what it is, a blatant attempt to exploit the rules for (yes we all admit) poor wording, you have to sometimes interpert the intent of the rules rather than assume because it doesn't say no you can. I'd rather error on the side of caution, than have a game where everyone has to have wired reflexes or be a mage, otherwise they missed out.

I know disputing terms gets us no where, but I'm trying to understand how people think something so good/and game breaking as applying wired reflexes to the matrix in any form isn't counterproductive to the whole system as its implied (and sadly little more than implied). And that should be obvious reason enough that its wrong.

e.g. "My character can lift his own weight according to my strength attribute, so I can fly". (though gravity isn't defined, its implied in the game, and its game breaking if every character could fly if he bought his strength attribute up for only X BP).

[X-Kalibur]

[hobgoblin]

muscle memory only helps for the aim and shoot part. your brain still have to go "ok, thats a valid target. shoot!".

[booklord]

[hobgoblin]

[hobgoblin]

[Wiseman]

By that rational, wired reflexes and reflex spell should stack. Since one is using adrenelin, electrical stimulation, and other biological process to go fast and the other is magically speeding up your movement. But alas, you can't do that either. My brain says "hey it could work" but it would be game breaking so it they don't allow it and then even go as far as to cap it at [4] passes.

Wired reflexes already have incredible use.

AR already has incredible use. But people can't seem to reconcile that for getting to shoot their gun (as in action, simple or complex) and be immune to black ice they don't go as fast.

AR vs VR matrix initiative is implied at least a dozen times, such as the time it takes to do an extended probe hacking test. 1 Hour vs 1 Day?

Still by following the logic of "its the only way hackers would be worth it", then why doesn't the sample hacker have it? Why isn't there a commlink mod similar to SR3's response increase? simple, because your initiative speed and passes are based solely (with one exception) on the method you use to access the matrix. AR, CSVR, & HSVR

[Wiseman]

how about this, you acknowledge that hot sim is faster than cold sim, why? specifically because hot sim exposes you to more danger and grants another initiative pass.

Just like cold sim is slightly more risk and speed than AR.

Its really as simple as that. It makes sense. It doesn't make your hacker with WR2 any less cool.

He can still shoot a semi auto pistol 5 times and unload a program in 3 seconds. wow.

that DOES make him more viable as a mobile member of the party.

Also the arguement that VR is outdated is plain wrong. Deckers don't use hot sim VR because its out of date. and who uses this illegal hot sim module....hackers. So why would any decker ever even think up the means to illegally modify (and expose himself to addiction as well as black ice) his sim mod when he could have that speed and more in AR?

[Wiseman]

I read the whole post Booklord, and yes your rules work very nicely. In fact, I think its almost exactly as the book implies it works, and more or less, thats what i'm arguing. Calling it a houserule almost seems generous.


Mostly i'm just extremely bored at work and happy to debate (which would explain why i'm posting like crazy).

[Samaels Ghost]

First to respond to booklord:

He's got all the power of a hot sim decker with none of the risk. If the characters want to break into a high-security corporate site then the team accepts the danger and the risk.

See, that's where we differ the most, I think. I know there are many ways that my corphackers can get at the runners. The overconfidence that comes along with thinking that you're invincible just because those whitecaps can't frag you over the phoneline will lead to sloppy work. Those who know their limits and are careful are less likely to have gotten fragged in the first place. A good hacker is a good hacker. A sloppy hacker is a sloppy hacker. And there is more than one way too skin a hacker (eww). There is plenty of risk involved in hacking into Renraku databases. Most of which are not that the IC there can kill you. Many other things at the company can try killing you too. Corpsec can come barging, you could get traced, your comm could get compromised by enemy agents, you could get flat out beat in cyber combat and have to start the matrix run over or could have have failed as soon as you were caught analyzing where your analyzer doesn't belong. So what, you can't get killed? What player out there isn't gonna burn edge anyway?
This, however, falls into subjective terms as well. It's up to each GM to decide what he is comfortable with. If Black-immunity just absolutely can't work within your campaign setting then implement booklord's or Serbitar's rules.

Because I believe that you can't go from an environment where you have a high number of IPs to an environment with a low number of IPs and back again in the same combat turn without penalty.

And hence my argument that AR isn't excluded from normal intiative passes. See above. And I respect fyour right to penalize.

______________________________________________________
Wiseman, here's what I think:

It was my understanding from the RAW that AR speeds were "Meat-Body" speeds. Not "Physical" speeds.

I think I have no idea what that means, or rather, if that makes sense. What is meat-body speeds if not physical speeds? And if increased IPs makes lots of physical things possible, why is AR (meat-body actions here) not included?


The benefit of using AR applies to real world actions as in simple or complex. Not multiple initiative passes.

During multiple IPs you can take more complex and simple actions than if you had less, right? How does AR benefit "simple and complex actions" like you mention above? What does that mean? What are you talking about?


Spending 90 times the amount for a commlink with hot sim is irrelevant as that cost gets you the benefit of up to 3 extrra physical action phases in 3 seconds. Only your unmodified meat body of 1 pass may be used for AR.

Are explaining how booklord's rule work here? You spend 90 times the amount for Wired2 against a sim module. That's not insignifcant. It gives you 3 IPs either way. One way you don't have to interface with dangerous Black progs, that's all.


Notice that cold sim and hot sim both have a (two total) and (three total) annotation at the end of the paragraphs in matrix initiative. If wired reflexes boosted adrenelin, yada ya, then shouldn't it stack with VR (as in my brain is super pumped on reaction so I think faster than you think fast)? But it doesn't.

Did I ever imply that VR and Wired should stack? I don't think so. Usually IP enhancements don't stack. If you meant that Wired shouldn't stack with AR then I would refer you to the earlier discussion about that. In summary it went "Wired slows down your perception of events allowing you to act quickly". The exact nature of HOW Wired or any other IP enhancement work can't be reasonably disscussed here as it assumes a lot of things. The description of Wired Reflexes talks about neural boosters and adrenaline but not how such a thing would actually work. It does say what it's effect is, which is important. Bullet-time is in the mind, not your hands.

Multiple types of initiative modifiers do NOT stack. So a mage casting a reflex spell on a hacker doesn't help in the matrix in anyway (just like it doesn't help the mage in astral projection). Matrix is matrix whether it is VR or AR.

You make the point that IP enhancements don't stack. THat's great. But VR and Wired are two different systems. Sure they don't stack, that's obvious. But VR gives you passes in VR. Wired gives you passes in AR (meat-body world, physical world.)


You get 1 initiative pass (out of any multiples you have) for AR. your reaction doesn't go up in the matrix because you are "wired" either

Your reaction doesn't go up in VR because Reaction the attirbute isn't factored into VR intiative. IPs should carry over because your capacity for processing information and acting upon it to give matrix commands is increased by Wired.


(thats why adjusted reaction and passes should be shown seperately, like the character samples in the book do)

Those are shown separately in case the implants/spells/abilities that give those bonus are shut off or taken away for any reason. For example, walking down town with my Wired system off is a good idea unless you want to take a seemingly epic journey down the block. If I get ambushed by ninjas on the way I would use my unagmented attributes to react to said ninjas. If my character sheet is drawn up with natural (augmented) formats used then it will be easy to tell what numbers I am using. Knowing what your natural(augmented) numbers are is useful when dealing with caps as well.


You may split up that initiative pass into physical or matrix actions and any bonus initiative passes from wired reflexes must be taken in the physical.

Where did this come from? Is this what you intended booklord when you wrote your rule? If so I think my own points about how the value of a action for matrix actions and physical actions is equal are actually supported here. If I can do a Matrix perception (simple) and shoot at ninjas (simple/simply awesome) in the same pass then that would imply both those actions are equally complex and take an equivalent amount of time. If I melee attack (complex action) or matrix attack (complex action) since the two are made up of equally complex and time equivalent parts (2 simple actions) then they both take just as much time. Period.


You can argue all you want that you paid for that right since its more expensive. But you didn't, just because something is more expensive doesn't mean it does something it wasn't designed or intended to do. (my house costs more than my car but I can't drive it to work). At best you could argue you should use your physical reaction in AR but not the additional passes.

I may not have intended to buy the immunity to black IC but I did. Just becuase i didn't intend to doesn't mean that I didn't. Your house/car analogy is worthless here, and I would have to say a downright fallacy (though I'm not sure exactly which kind.) The SimModule and Wired Reflexes are both designed to, in game terms, increase Initative Passes. Immunity to Black IC when using Wired in AR is another benefit of Wired but not the sole intention of its creators. If I do not interface with simsense signals through DNI I do not receive biofeedback. If I use Wired to increase IPs when using AR I do not interface with simsense signals, therefore I do not receive biofeedback. Cost was only brought up in regards to game balance issues, not actual mechanics. That was obvious. To be more concise: Items often have unintended uses, regardless of cost.


Also, when talking about AR initiative, they state "regular meat-body speeds". Regular alludes to the unmodified speed. Meat by slang definition is unaugmented by cyberware (or the part left behind when you VR). Effectively saying the unmodified unaugmented-body speeds.

WHAT! That same AR init section directly refers you to the Combat section Initaitive entry where there is no mention of augmentation either. Does that mean that augmentations that affect your initiative don't affect your initative? Does that even make sense? Regular, in the context of other forms of matrix intiative, means just like any other initative test (REA+INT). The same sentence that you got "regular" from goes on to say

[Wiseman]

Couple of things to note:

Meat-body..what is meat? well in the appendix in the back of the book, they reference meat. Meat under matrix jargon is defined as "an unwired individual, or the physical part left behind when in VR".

Second note that under Cold Sim VR it says "one extra initiative pass (total two). So I get one extra than what? than what I would have if I used AR.

Third look under Initiative and switching initiative during combat. This section is written specifically for two differing environments from the physical, the matrix, and the astral. Note the part about losing extra initiative passes also.

Next check out the description in Hot Sim VR about hackers only using this to gain the edge on speed over the slower access types. You CAN do everything just as "powerful" as VR with AR, just not as fast. Also under AR initiative it clearcly states ACTIONS, with no mention of using wired reflexes passes. Some argue then why not say "unmodified", so I'll argue why not say under wired reflexes or under AR that the wired reflexes do count.

You even accept that the benefits from wired reflexes are shown seperately because they're bonuses. keyword, bonus. They adjust your regular reaction, initiative and passes.

Even if you read the whole book and still can't see any references to the speed of VR over AR, and even if you want to dispute the jargon as defined, or the system as it works for a very similar environment (astral), you still can't claim that its common sense that you should be able to break the pass cap on the matrix (implied at 3, except overclocking) and still be immune to black ice at no penalty.
its not only counter-intuitive, its counter-productive.

Now in the end, anyone can play the game they want to. I can rule that dermal plating is specific to locations, and that multiple locations stack. It never says you can't. But any GM worth his dice is not going to allow an obvious stretch of the rules for personal benefit and at the cost of balance.

No matter how you spin it in your mind, AR should never be both faster and safer than AR. And if you were honest about it, and stopped looking at 1 pass AR as an attempt to limit the hackers, you'd see the honest intent was to give an unwired hacker the option to move along with the party (at all) and that when the going gets tough, the tough go VR (for speed). Not being confined to a Deck IS mobility. Getting to split actions IS mobility. Everyone uses AR, real hackers use hot sim.

As much as you'd like to seperate AR into the physical category, all its actions are listed as "Matrix Actions". AR is matrix that uses regular meat-body speeds period.

If you want to allow it go ahead (hell if I'm going to convince someone how to have fun), but it only serves to blur the lines of defined roles in the party, since every SAM is a hacker and every hacker is a SAM (few skills/skillsofts aside). Again, why not make a mystic/magician with one reflex spell and a commlink. Its cheaper than WR and according to you gives the same benefit (and spirits can sustain spells for you). You show me a game where AR gets WR/Magic passes, and I'll show you a game where everyone has WR and no one plays a technomancer.

You call a few of my arguements cheap, but you still offer nothing substantial other than wired reflexes doesn't specificallys state it doesn't add to AR.

Show me 11 examples of AR being faster. Hell show me one.

I'll post the other 11 examples when I have access to my book so you can have all your quotes and such nicely lined up with pages (or you could just read the entire matrix section).

[Xenith]

Personally, I not fond of overt exploitation of rules, but frankly this isn't all that unbalancing. Whoo... you go fast in AR. There are still things you have to do in VR that you can't in AR. At least not as well.

Frankly, each game and player is different and the rules are friggin guidelines. They are not set in stone. A GM has to make a call depending on the situation. Its fine to allow the magical init boosting apply to AR. But if it seems like they are abusing it, you have two options. 1) Disallow it after the character gets crazy with it. Or 2) Explain to them that NPCs will get to do that too! And then use one on them and see how they like it. Number 2 is my favorite. It works wonders. XD

Also, if you're casting magic against others through AR.... that has to lay down some hefty mods with all the distracting picitures and overlayed data. Frankly, the same distraction would apply to shooting a gun working on an disconnected Maglock, and so on. There is a trade off of some kind.

Edit: Oh, and half the point of a freeform point based system is to blur the lines between archeotypes... you know.... an attempt at realism and freedom.

[X-Kalibur]

After re-reading the matrix section, it is implied many times that VR is faster than AR. It might not even be a limit of how fast your character is thanks to wires or SAs, it might be a limit imposed on AR that makes it process information slower than going digital.

And it makes sense, no matter how fast you might physically be, there is technological lag involved in going through peripherals. You can't even comprehend the speed of thought. Seriously. And moving faster physically and "slowing everything down aka bullet time" doesn't make your AR go any faster. AR v VR is like saying 56k v cable/DSL (cold sim) or T1/3 (hot sim).

[hobgoblin]

mind giving some page refrences to where its implied that AR is slower then VR?

grr, by the looks of it, unwired will be one big FAQ...

[X-Kalibur]

[hobgoblin]

i take it your refering to the "you move at digital speeds, which can be the extra edge you need while pulling a hack job".

notice the "while pulling a hack job" part.

my guess is that this is refering to the "beaking in" part on page 221. there VR is clearly faster then AR.

outside of that we can argue until a FAQ shows up about what the writer wanted to say with "while pulling a hack job"...

[OIOOIOOIOIOOIIII]

[X-Kalibur]

[Moon-Hawk]

Okay, that quote convinces me. I'm going to adopt the house rule that AR users are restricted to one matrix pass, but they can do whatever they want in the meat world with their other actions.
So one matrix complex action or two matrix simple actions per turn, but I don't care if they're mixed in with their physical actions.

[hobgoblin]

so i noticed x-kalibur but didnt bother to edit my post in case someone replyed to it while i was doing it.

however, the speed increase they are refering to can be coverd by the change from reaction+intuition to response+logic when calculating initative score. this means that you can have a meat/AR initative of 1+1 and still have a VR initative of 6+6 (or higher if response is ever allowed to go above 6).

hmm, i wonder if response loss from running to many programs can impact your iniative score. would make a theoretical system drop something in the area of cruel and unusual punishment ;)

[X-Kalibur]

How about this one then...

[hobgoblin]

again, reaction+intuition vs response+logic.

[X-Kalibur]

[Wiseman]

Adding up to more than coincidental evidence though.

just for color they put a nice intro on each chapter. pg 205

", probing for a number of exploitable flaws with the speed and hyper-intensity that only hot sim can provide."

Frogger sure thought he had the fastest way in.

ok. follow me here on page 229 to the most important part of this all. under Hot Sim

"A hot sim interface has been modified to bypass the simsense peak levels that protect your nervous system from damaging biofeedback."

now just five lines down, same page

"It may seem like sheer madness to redline this way, as even random line noise could potentially be translated into lethal amounts of biofeedback, but many hackers rely on the boosted signal strength to provide them the speed they need"

The point is, if your operating at "safe" levels (I.E. your immune to bio-feedback), you can't achieve any greater speed because the signal isn't as strong. You can wave your arms and shoot all you like (see below) but the safe level of feed your getting off the matrix just aint enough juice.

As for initiative and switching, combat section, page 134, Switching Initiative

"If the number of initiative passes available to a character decreases, then that character immediately loses any extra initiative passes for that turn he might have had."

So if you have WR and intend to do something in AR and also use your extra initiative passes, then you had better do that AR action last. It helps if you think of the Matrix as another environment all together (similar to astral).