I worked out this matrix house rule list.
Most of these are not true house rules and are instead my opinion on how the rules are supposed to work or should work in areas where the book was rather unclear such as messing with cyberware. Some of them though are true house rules like my rule on augmented reality initiatitive.

Tell me what you think.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMON SENSE HOUSE RULES

A character cannot switch modes after being hit by a Black Hammer or Blackout attack. In addition the Black Hammer or Blackout attack will jam all open connections. So if a runner is connected to six other nodes he can't log off or take any action in any of them until the program or user that hit him with that attack is crashed.

Once a hidden node is detected, a hacker may attempt to hack into it. The rules are unclear on this point so I will be.

Someone may set his commlink so it only accepts security access(+3) or admin access(+6). Most set it for admin access.

The +4 active alert bonus to firewall does not apply to resisting the Attack program. Using the Attack program automatically triggers an active alert on most systems assuming the system is still up to give one.

Upon entering a node, a hacker must do a Datasearch+Browse to locate any file or program that he wants to analyze, edit or attack. The exception is for active agents or IC which can be detected by a Computer+Analyze Perception test, In a simple node it may be a very simple test but it still must be done. It's not uncommon for a hacker to just default to his Datasearch skill and not use his Browse program to save on his program load when hacking simple nodes.

A drone that has a user logged in and currently running a command program is completely immune to spoofed internet traffic and editted wireless signals aimed at the drone. This is especially true of drones whose owner is "jumped in".

If a character's matrix condition monitor is filled up then his commlink crashes and everyone, friend or foe, who is currently in the commlink node is logged off. If the character is knocked unconscious or dying then the commlink remains active until someone shuts it off.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AUGMENTED REALITY HOUSE RULES

Switching from one node to another is a free action, but you cannot take a simple action in one node and then a simple action in another node or in the physical world during the same initiative pass! I gotta draw the line somewhere.

One of the quickest and meanest things you can do to someone once hacked into their commlink is simply download an advertisement virus program. The maximum dice pool modifier you can inflict on the poor soul is -3. To aim for a modifier worse than that you'll need to hack his sim module. Can you imagine forcing an XXX BTL download in the middle of a fight?

Physical reaction has a limited affect on augmented reality initiative. If the player chooses to take an Augmented Reality action during an Initiative pass then subtract his Reaction from his initiative for that initiative pass. In addition he forfeits the right to take an action in any of the remaining initiative passes that combat turn. This is the best I can think of for limiting Augmented Reality initiative without resorting to more dice rolls.

If any enemy hacker or agent manages to hack his way into a character's commlink and is detected breaking in then his icon appears as part of the normal visual overlay of the commlink. The commlink wearer's icon is always visible and present in his commlink's node and cannot be hidden by a stealth program. If a hacker breaks in undetected and the commlink wearer suspects he is in there then he may try to find using a Matrix Perception test.

When accessing another node with Augmented Reality than the user takes a -2 distraction penalty for any defensive real world actions he's forced to take. If the character is performing an augmented reality action within his own commlink node the penalty does not apply.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MESSING WITH CYBERWARE HOUSE RULES

Just to be clear. You cannot do an Electronics Warfare-signal intercept or jamming on any piece of cyberware. Nor can it affect any device which is currently connected by a skin link. All cyberware is considered connected to a character's electrical field whether it comes in contact with the skin or not. The skin link is only needed for connecting to external devices like smart linked guns.

A Character's PAN counts as a single integrated network. It isn't possible to hack into someone's cyberware or skin-linked electronic equipment without going through the commlink unless the commlink is down. The firewall program of a character's commlink applies to the whole network. But it cuts both ways. Once a hacker gets into the commlink they can simply find the cyberware control program with a Datasearch+Browse action and then may try to analyze or crash it. If the hacker has analyzed either the program, node traffic or the owner then they can use a Spoof+Hacking Test to try to issue fake commands.

Note that there are limits to how much havoc a hacker can do to a runner's equipment and cyberware. You can turn off the smartlink system, fool with the targeting data, or command the gun to eject its clip but you can't command the gun to fire. That's what triggers are for and they haven't gone as far as to get rid of them yet. Likewise a cyberarm can't be forced to work against its owner. It's controlled by a direct neural interface. But you could trigger an overheat alarm and cause it to shutdown.

If the commlink or the cyberware control program goes down then the cyberware or electronic device goes into independent mode and will have to be hacked seperately. The firewall and system rating for normal, alpha, beta, and delta cyberware is 3, 4, 5, and 6 respectively. (Administrator mode only) However the response is 1 and the signal is 0. (Though it still can't be jammed or have its signals intercepted) The cyberware will even try to maintain communication with other nodes such as a smart-linked gun it was connected to before and do other tasks as best it can until the connection to the commlink is reestablished.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ISSUING FAKE COMMANDS HOUSE RULES

A hacker cannot order a drone or agent to do anything that he does not have the command codes for. For example a hacker intercepts the wireless signal of a drone and its owner orders the drone to move forward and scan the area. The hacker cannot order the drone to fire its weapons on its owner because he has not intercepted those command codes for using the weapons yet. Likewise a hacker cannot send a signal commanding a drone to change its subscription list unless he intercepts a message from its owner giving it that command. (As such you can imagine many hackers never transmit such vital command codes) The same holds for intercepting traffic between a Hacker and his agent. The command codes can be gained doing an Analyze on an agent or a drone's pilot program.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MANIPULATING YOUR SIGNAL HOUSE RULES

The satellite link may used to send out a directional signal. For example a hacker near a corporate facility in a remote area may use a sattelite link to send a signal out the other direction and connect to the maatrix without the corporate facility learning of their presense.

A commlink signal may be set to work at a lower signal strength to prevent others from overhearing the signal. It can either be done through a software command or a hardware switch. Anyone connected to the node who is no longer in range will lose their connection. If done through a software command a connecting hacker may try to stop the action using the same method of resisting having his connection terminated. In done by a hardware switch, as might be done by an AR user, then nothing can be done to prevent the connections of all those out of range from being terminated. A signal reduction software command cannot be done by anyone under the effects of Black Hammer or Blackout while a hardware switch under these circumstances will cause the user to crash and suffer dumpshock.

A hacker, node or drone may change their signal by first shutting down all outside connections, and then rebroadcasting on a different ID. Note a hacker may try to prevent having his connection severed and if successful will stop the signal change unless the signal change is being done by a hardware switch. Once changed anyone intercepting traffic from the hacker, node, or drone will have to start all over from the beginning. As a last resort the signal ID can be changed as part of a system reset.

I like, I like.

Some interesting stuff. Have you read my SGM (see signature) maybe you find some stuff in there usefull.
(some rules are also in SHP, the augmented reality action for example)

Im not proclaiming these as facts or anything but they are things i would question with your rules.

Normal hack path...

Decript signal -> perception test to find node -> hack node. Then once your inside you Decript data -> perception test to find whatever -> whatever program you wanna run on it.

Intiative while AR...

Why would taking an action in AR drop your intiative?? ok your in the middle of a fight and you have 3 init passes. On the first one you try to edit a file and as a consequence you lose the rest of your init passes?? Thats...extreme and i think totally unnecessary?? I dont know i guess i dont understand when you are gonna implement this. Can you give an example of it being used?

Cyberware.....

I think a body's electrical field(skin) is different than its nervous system. I think you should have to skinlink any cyberwear you want to communicate with something that is using your electrical field(skin) to pass data like a commlink or a gun.

Oh yeah... You sure as hell can fire a smartgun without pulling the trigger So if you have your smart weapon linked through your comm and some hacker gets access they should easily be able to fire the gun. But yeah you cant move cyberlimbs.

Hacking cyberware is something that is hinted at in the rules but not explicitly explained. I imagine such information will be in Unwired. Until such time as it comes out, these rules (like many of Booklords other musings) appear considered and well presented. I shall definately take them into consideration when running my games. Kudos!

Does that initiative thing happen with mages who are using astral perception? Because they are suppose to be the same thing and its probably been heavily covered in magic before.

Lets say a hacker turns off a players cybereyes. How long or what kind of actions would it take for a player to turn them back on or counter whateverthe hacker did to them?

If a hacker with a skinlinked comm touchs somebody else he can hack all their cyber? Forget the commlink on the target, how easy is it for a hacker to disrupt a piece of cyber like that? Would he have to waste a turn finding the node?

I like your rules also, I am so hella weak on this matrix stuff, I just don't get it.

I think I agree with your last statement about not being able to hack cyberware without going through the commlink...

I mean, I think you could hack the commlink by entering through the wi-fi (or whatever connection) of cyberware, but in order to do anything to it, you have to go through the commlink. I haven't completely finalized my thoughts on this, but I kinda think of it as a security camera, connected to the security system via wi-fi.

The security camera could be a entrance point to the rest of the system, but you really can't hack into the camera by itself, because it really doesn't do anything on its own by "see". So maybe you could subscribe it to your commlink and see what it is seeing, but actually doing something to it...you would either need to intercept some commands then spoof them, or access the controlling node and do your actions from there...

So, the same thing for the cybereye (or any cyberware). Hacking just the eye, you would have actually had to intercept a "shutdown" command in order to spoof one. The other option would be to hack the commlink via the cybereye, get a list of commands then spoof them or attempt to run them from the node...so still, you really need to get to that commlink to cause any sort of damage...

All understanding is subject to change:)

For example...

Bob has cybereyes and they run with wi-fi turned off 99% of the time. He uses skinlinks for his smartguns so there is no need for a comm.

Now a hacker with a skinlinked comm touchs bob. The hacker wouldnt even see the node for Bobs comm unless bob had it skinlinked which he does not. Now if things are not part of your comm then they are indidivual nodes?? And most likely in hidden mode. So the hacker would have to try and find the node? Such as bob's cybereyes.

???

You can turn wi-fi OFF on cyberware. So if its not connected to a comm its turned off and you cant even detect it. But thats not what im asking.

A hacker with a skinlinked comm can turn the wi-fi off on all his cyberware and as long as he has a skinlinked datajack he could still be in total control of it all. Because his body acts as the medium for the data.

Now if he touches somebody else, he should be able to have access to all the cyber in his opponent that is skinlinked or not (seems like people keep flip flopping on this). Even if his opponent has no comm and his crap has its wi-fi turned off because its using his body as the means to transfer data which the hacker is now tapping into.

Instead of hacking through wi-fi he is trying to hack through skinlink?

I don't that IP's gained from other sources ('ware or magic) should be thrown out the window when using AR. THink about what Wired Reflexes are, for example. They augment your perception of the world around you.Things slow down like bullet-time and you can react to threats and have more time to make decisions. When using AR the only time I think you should be moving at "meat-body" speeds is if you're using stupid AR gloves to manipulate ARO's. But what if Mr. Sammy is using a straight sim module hook up? Here's what he's using speifically:
-Sim Module
-Datajack (for DNI)
-Comm (duh)
He can interact with his AR display by merely thinking about it (via partial sim sense feed of his AR). Why would how fast his body is affect those commands? If I'm using my Wired system for those 4 IP's then the world and my AR display is slowed down considerably. Why couldn't I shoot my grenade launcher and then make a mental comand without penalty? SHooting a freakin' gun takes time to aim, move your arm and pull the trigger. Thinking "close the gate" takes less if not the same amount of time as shooting that gun.

But Hot Sim VR and Wired Reflexes are both designed to boost the time you have to react to a situation. Being as Wired 3/Synaptics 3 costs so much I think its safe to say the the technology is on par with hot simsense. if not superior. It's possible that they are actually paralell technologies. The book may say that Hot sim is faster than AR, but it never says that it is faster than a Wired sammy. You're making that assupmtion. The two are never really compared. From the way it is described both Hot SIm and Wired systemsboost mental reaction time. Why can't AR be at least as fast then?

But Hot Sim VR and Wired Reflexes are both designed to boost the time you have to react to a situation. Being as Wired 3/Synaptics 3 costs so much I think its safe to say the the technology is on par with hot simsense. if not superior. It's possible that they are actually paralell technologies. The book may say that Hot sim is faster than AR, but it never says that it is faster than a Wired sammy. You're making that assupmtion. The two are never really compared. From the way it is described both Hot SIm and Wired systemsboost mental reaction time. Why can't AR be at least as fast then?

How I view the reaction boosters......

Reaction Enchancers = boost reaction by replacing part of the spinal column with conductive metal
Wired Reflexs = Runs wires through the body to speed up the nervous system.
Synaptic booster = An enhancement to the motor reflexes part of the brain

Heck for that matter even a non-cybered AR user is not significantly slower than a hot sim user. Hardly the "Lightning Fast" Compared to "AR users" described in the book.
Reaction+Intuition
vs.
Response+Intuition+1


Now the reason I suspect that the writers did this was because a significant intiative dice penalty would prove crippling when it came to surprise tests. That's something I agree with. Which is the house rule I came up with doesn't affect surprise tests. It also allows reaction to play some role as when the initiative dice are rolled successes from the dice from reaction are included. The penalty comes into play during the initiative pass that the AR user decides to act on the matrix and any subsequent initiative passes which are then lost.

Yes, but why lose IPs? You said it yourself, the book seems to exaggerate the speed of hot sim. Why wouldn't IP enhancers affect matrix actions?

I do see why physical reaction (and therefore REA) might go out the window during AR manipulation, but whole IPs?

If the world really "slows down" around me when I click on my Wired, why can't I use AR with those IPs?

Because from my point of view the character has two Init Pass scores:

Say in Hininjai's case it would be

Physical IP : 4
Matrix AR IP : 1

As long he keeps to physical actions from Init Passes 1 - 3 Hininjai has another init pass coming. But once he switches to an AR action Hininjai only has 1 init pass and when its over then he's done for the combat turn.

The obvious solution then for Hininjai is to do the AR action on his last Init Pass unless an emergency situation like charging Barghests arises.

Oh, well see there you go. I was trying to argue the point of veiw, not the rule persay. I don't understand why the rule is neccesary to begin with. I know there is a perceived problem, just not what that problem is. Could you explain why a houserule for this particular situation is neccesary? (AR and Phys IP's conflicting)

But if you've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on enhancements don't you deserve to have that buffer between you and biofeedback? And having that buffer by no means makes you an invincible hacker. Your node will crash just like anyone else's and will get locked open to IC attacks just like anyone else's. After you get owned it doesn't hurt as much. Those IP's won't help you out much either if you've spent all your money on them instead of programs. Wired 3 costs $100,000, Synaptics 3 cost $240,000! With all that money down the tubes you're not going to have enough to keep your comm on the cutting edge either. The hypothetical Wired Hacker is very cost prohibitive. Considering hot-sim costs you all of 300ish nuyen to use, that damage seems to balance it out. If players are actually using this combo they have far too much money to begin with. That's the balance issue here. Where is all that nuyen coming from? Sure if you give your players enough money to pay for bleeding edge programs AND insanely expensive implants there is going to be a balance issue. Flooding character with money always has that effect.

Sure VR is fast and the book even says that it is superior to AR. It doesn't seem to take into account that the AR user "interfacing with augmented reality while walking down the street" might just be able to shoot 8 guys dead in 3 seconds flat. Sure Wired is bodyware but the "fluff" description mentions that the user is in "a whole new world where everything seems to move in slow motion." It also says the the use of adrenaline is part of the system. That has to have some pretty major effects on how a wired character interacts with AR. Synaptics are actual augmentation to the nervous system. The spell Inc Reflexes is pretty cheap, I'll admit. That seems to be more of an issue of balance for the spell than AR IPs.

Don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from. I'm just playing devil's advocate here. There doesn't seem to be enough of a problem here to warrant a rules adaptation, though. It's not as clear cut as, say, changing the attribute rigging uses from AGI to INT. And there doesn't seem to be a balance issue. Let sam's use their wired and chastise hackers for hoarding so much money that it makes the game unbalanced.

Gah, the delete button is missing, and I didn't think before responding to someones post when this page had been opened for a while, ignore this post.

BHammer and BOut dont have any effect on an AR user, that's true. Using attack on their persona does, however. Crash their persona and you just might have enough time to screw with their comm or find something you were there looking for to begin with. Hacking someone's comm becomes all kinds of difficult if you're detected anyway. But that's a different subject i think. Sure the Black programs become less useful, but you've still got Attack which is just about as useful.

Making a Wired 2 hacker is making a hacker with a 32,000$ sim module, essentially. Except Probing takes days, enemies are less likely to use biofeedback against you and are forced to become more creative (which is more fun than just "I kill him" anyway). and hot sim users are still better than you (+2 to all actions, more moolah for programs). Without high IPs and with it you just end up playing a different type of character and approach problems from different angles.

Is Hininjai that out of balance? He can't do anything major with those extra AR IPs anyway. He closed a gate, so? Whats wrong with that. The example above was a pretty good example of good game play. I wouldn't have had a problem with it in game. Hininjai thought on his feet, got the job done, and the whole scene was pretty exciting. Doesn't seem like anything was wrong with it.

I'll write more later

I missed your persona house rule. I'll have to mull that one over.

How is Black IC useless? Oh, just reread the rules... Black programs and Black IC are required for the connection jamming. Hmmm....

My point about the Wired 2 was that the Hacker isn't getting much more for his buck. He could be Hot Sim hacking for much less and with the added +2 bonus. It was a comparison between the sim module and the wired 2 implant.

Maybe you should post an example for AR IP abuse. I understand how your rule works, just not ehy it needs to be there.

I would like to say that you've pretty much got me convinced at this point but only by a slim margin. I do see the imbalance here and have seen it before, but still think that a houserule might not be needed. If there does need to be a change I think I prefer Serbitar's rule. It has the same effect (without the -REA to initiative score) and doesn't fall into a weird metagaming hole ("If I wait a second I can close that gate and run back down that hallway, but If I do it now then I'll have to stand around for a second or two doing nothing." That makes no sense)

Also I do like a few of your other rules. This one:
spoiler to save room

and the manipulating signal rules which I used before in my own games.

Sidenote:
Highly specialized character are often out of balance, but that's off topic

EXAMPLE OF WHY HIGH INITIATIVE AND HIGH IP AUGMENTED REALITY IS UNBALANCED
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chesire the technomancer skimmed through the node at typical lightning fast VR speeds. Normally he would be carefree without a worry in the world, but lately some individual had been attacking technomancers. The matrix had become a dangerous place and he didn't have a fault sprite handy. Suddenly a loud booming voice transimitted accross the node. "I Challenge!" The hacker known as Goth stepped out of view. Chesire's highly tuned senses easily identified the hacker as an Augmented Reality user. He scoffed under his breath. "He's got to be kidding...still no need to wait around this might be a trap." He turned to leave and then Goth attacked

Combat turn
------------------------
Ip Pass 1:
Goth shockingly enough moves faster than Chesire hitting him with Black Hammer and Chesire can not escape any longer.
No longer able to flee Chesire fights back using the only weapon he has that will affect his opponent, Attack, threading it for 2 more points. ( low enough that he can completely negate the drain )
Ip Pass 2:
Goth continues to attack with black hammer. He has inflicted a wound modifier on poor Chesire.
Chesire continues to attack with attack. But Goth suffers no wound modifier as Cherire's attacks only affect his matrix damage track.
Ip Pass 3:
Goth attacks again with black hammer.
Chersire continues to attack with attack.
Ip Pass 4:
Moving with horrific speed Goth gets a 4th attack injuring Chesire further.
Chesire gets no 4th attack as he's reacting at slower hot sim VR speeds than his AR opponent.

They were evenly matched when it came to program ratings. If anything Chesire's ability to thread his attacks and his natural +2 die hot sim bonus should give him the edge. But Goth's ability to inflict wound modifiers while taking none of his own plus his 4 attacks to Chesire's 3 attacks gives him the advantage. Eventually Chesire's persona sinks to the matrix floor, his meat body dying. Goth hits him with Black Hammer two more times to finish him off and so that he can hear him scream. A medic program later his icon is operating is fully operational.

Then the matrix shimmers around him as twenty-nine technomancers log onto the node. "Murderer! You won't escape us!" they scream. Goth merely chuckles.

Combat Turn
--------------
Ip Pass 1:
Goth's has an initiative score faster than the technomancers' but they really hate him so they all spend edge so they'll go first. Goth could spend edge to counter them but he doesn't care. They all blast him with every program they've got but Black Hammer and Blackout are all useless. Only Attack affects him and that only damages his matrix damage track. Under the blistering assault his icon crashes.


Back in his mansion, Goth completely unhazed and feeling a little hungry smiles as the messages flashes before his eyes "Commlink offline. System Reset in 30 seconds." He does a quick system check on his beta wired reflexes 3 and reaction enhancers 3. He then checks the skill wires 5 with all his loaded activesofts including cybercombat. And to think just last week he only used his AR for online shopping and porn! Oh the joys of being a spoiled rotten rich boy! "Commlink online - all systems restored - Initiating Augmented Reality Mode" Ah... yes eating could wait. He'll go off and find himself another technomancer or perhaps a hot sim hacker. This truly is the best video game ever!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The above was a completely fictional account based off the rules in SR4.
Or was it?
<Insert Evil Laugh Here>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To sum up:

AR users by virtue of how they work take no personal risk when running the matrix. They do not suffer stun or physical damage. There is no way to prevent them from logging off. Even if you crash them it is a minor inconvience as they suffer no dumpshock and can reset their persona within a few combat turns. With the right cyberware or bioware they can have a higher initiative than any hot sim hacker or technomancer. They can easily obtain an IP pass count equal to a hot sim hacker and with some financial support can reach an IP pass count surpassing all but an overclocking technomancer.

Unbalanced! Edging on Broken!

There is a simple answer. AR requires command input similar to modern computer (using virtual keyboard/mouse & some voice command). Even a fully optimized UI means you have point-click actions like a video game.

Compare point&click to think. Think outruns point & click every time.

So make every AR action take more time.

VR AR
free simple
simple complex
complex 2xcomplex

Now the cyberbunny can wave his hands at blinding speed, allowing him to outrun other AR users but not anyone using full VR.

I have to admit that I am not completely familiar with TMs...but shouldn't a "powerful" TM have a bunch of sprites for support???

I don't have a problem that AR, when you cyber yourself out, can achieve VR speeds and rival/beat the TM. Honestly, I have always viewed the Matrix as the heart of SR, so having ANYONE be able to hack/crack is certainly something I am supporting.

Granted, that weakens the TM (which I don't care about because I don't allow them as PCs) and a focused hacker-only character, but overall, I think that makes for a more fun game where everyone can be a part of the Matrix environments...

I still don't have a problem with the non-stereotypical hacker that uses AR and focuses on cyberware for speed in the matrix. I think that makes a very well-rounded character...

It just reminds me of what some of my players asked me before their first game. They wanted to know what kind of classes there were...I told them, don't think about classes, think about skills, matrix and magic. Decide what you want to have strengths in and do it...don't worry about classes.

So, if all the players in SR4 are cybered-hackers or magic-wielding hackers...I am not going to be all that worried, because all the characters get to enjoy the matrix!

Not sure if my players are afraid of VR, its just that they like being able to function in the real world and AR. I mean, besides the extra IP and the bonus for hot-sim, AR is adequate for most of what my players are doing in the matrix.

One of the players only go cold-sim VR to avoid the physical damage track...they can still take stun damage, which will carry over, but apparently they found that safer...

The funny thing is, minus lack of skills, my one player with Wired Reflexes 2 is just as fast as the cold-sim hacker...he just doesn't realize it yet:) Granted, my players are relatively new and they haven't got to a point where they are trying to squeeze the rules to full advantage.

If the do, I may just end up locking AR at one IP regardless of cyber...but again, I don't see a complete imbalance and the issue has not come up yet in my games.

Hacksassination like what Goth is doing is pretty rare. Tracking someone down to fragg them online is less efficient then sneakily tracking their comm, implanting sniffers, and hunting them down through contacts and legwork. Well, maybe not more efficient, but not without it's very high failure rate. Characters can jack-out if the going gets rough. If they get Blacked then they better have precautions in place. Programing a drone to pull your plug for you when your biomonitor detects damage isn't a bad option and it bypasses the Black-jamming. This is something that all hackers should consider. For non-hackers they should be using their Hot-SIM modules on the run so they should only get Stun. Sure there's some dumpshock for Jacking-out early, but not enough to prevent you from turning off that comm after you get your bearings. Not being able to get fragged online isn't the end of shadowrun or hacking. I really don't think that hacksassination is a huge problem.

Think about what hackers DO end up doing most of the time in a game. The hacker bypasses security, finds and steals data, and protects the team's communication network by distributing programs and beefing up security during downtime. In the first two roles a hacker is probably hacking a corporate system. If, after all the work you put into hacking that system, you get booted with an Attack program that IS a major set back. Say i'm Wired3 the hacker. I hack into my target (a corp network) and search for my target paydata. During my Matrix romp I get pulled over by some nasty lookin' IC. They try Blacks when I turn out to be an intruder (or they can tell I'm in AR, whatever.) and whip out their Attack progs after they see it doesn't work and blast me. If I get cocky here, I'm royally screwed in several ways.

One, I get booted and have to hack in again. If the network admins are smart they'll either beef up security on the nodes I hacked previously or they'll move data somewhere I can't get to if they have any idea why I'm there to begin with (which is likely if I was close to my goal).

Two, I might get tracked. If there are two IC (and there usually is if that node is worth being in) then I end up playing tug-o-war with one while the other Attacks my Spoof program. Once that's gone I'm toast! They know where I am and can directly attack my comm. That is assuming I have Spoof up and running to begin with. If the security hackers are smart they have their IC Track before triggering alarms so that intruders are unaware they're getting screwed. Depending on where you are you could get fragged/caught in the RL before you even know what's going on. "I was seen?" You won't get killed in cybercombat with AR IPs maxed, sure. But that is only a small part of the hacking picture.

Whatsmore, your example illustrates one of my earlier points. These hypothatical Wired hackers have to be rolling in it to get this combo to work right. Goth was a spoiled ass rich boy with expensive toys. Even if he wasn't a little kid, he'd still be a very rich hacker (or poor now after all that shopping ). In order to do this it will cost him:


WOW. The problem here is NOT that Goth has Wired3, 4IPs, that he has too much cyber in his body (Standardware = 5+0.9+1 = 6.9 Essence spent. ) or that the boy has far too much time on his hands. It is that, as a character, he has been flooded with money. Not to mention Cheshire didn't handle the situation very well.

Even if mister Goth was a little more conservative with his moolah (wired2, Skillwires 4, no REA boosters...other hacker stuff) he'd still be a lousy hacker. He is spending too much of his money on cyber. It will cut into how much he can spend on programs (if he were a normal 400 build), how much BP he had to spend on everything else, and would probably make him TOO specialized that he would be useless
(*Goth* Let me frag him online, guys!
*guys* No, he's right over there and we don't want to even kill him! Why don't you hack into RichCorp security instead? We'll need access.
*Goth* I can't. I spent all my money getting implants and now I have crappy programs.
*Gunbunny* I'm so sick of this. BANG!)

I do see the point that you are trying to get across but I have to stick with my position that doing such abusive things in the Matrix is very expensive and therefore not unbalanced. The cost balances it. Plus, Goth is a tool.

And if a GM threw that at me as an NPC I'd throw the book at him!

The skillwires that Goth uses aren't even available to starting characters. Availability=rating*4. The highest rating skillwires he could possibly have at character gen are rating 3. Even so, this does not detract from the point that a character tricked out for meat IP is faster in AR than virtually anyone in VR and immune to matrix icon damage effects.

This is an extreme example and is only supposed to demonstrate the flaws in the system. Perhaps it can be self limiting, but the advantages of even simply buying wired2 and being able to hack, for the most part, as fast as someone in VR, without exposing yourself to danger seem to great too me.

Bear in mind that this hacker is not just super fast in the matrix, he is also as fast as any other tricked out by-the-book starting street sam. By foregoing any other 'ware (which he doesn't even need) he can still afford all the programs he might reasonably need. I would crunch the math, but my hangover is starting to kick in and I need to go to bed.

I'd really like to see the numbers you used for Chesire and for Goth, as it makes it hard to know you did any sort of close comparison by you just saying he gets hammered. At least the basic deck ratings and program ratings.

That actual numbers for the BP of the characters in the fake story are not important. The point was to show the percieved imblanace between AR and VR.

IE. Goth can run around all day long killing people while AR w/ 4 IP's, while VR users or TM's cant do shit to him except send him nasty emails most of the time with less IP's.

Im not supporting either side thats just the point he was trying to convey.

Okay, I went back and reveiwed the previous thread on this subject that I know of. Just for reference, here it is, the VR? thread.

Here are some interesting posts that either brought up points I have already in our disscussion or explained things better than I have managed to do. They aren't in order of posting and grouped ones are grouped becuase they illustraate a point and nit because they respond to each other.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Glayvin34

Wow, that was long.

time to bring out old sparkey i guess, and have the comlink go ZAP!

It was my understanding from the RAW that AR speeds were "Meat-Body" speeds. Not "Physical" speeds. The benefit of using AR applies to real world actions as in simple or complex. Not multiple initiative passes.

Spending 90 times the amount for a commlink with hot sim is irrelevant as that cost gets you the benefit of up to 3 extrra physical action phases in 3 seconds. Only your unmodified meat body of 1 pass may be used for AR.

Notice that cold sim and hot sim both have a (two total) and (three total) annotation at the end of the paragraphs in matrix initiative. If wired reflexes boosted adrenelin, yada ya, then shouldn't it stack with VR (as in my brain is super pumped on reaction so I think faster than you think fast)? But it doesn't.

Multiple types of initiative modifiers do NOT stack. So a mage casting a reflex spell on a hacker doesn't help in the matrix in anyway (just like it doesn't help the mage in astral projection). Matrix is matrix whether it is VR or AR.

You get 1 initiative pass (out of any multiples you have) for AR. your reaction doesn't go up in the matrix because you are "wired" either (thats why adjusted reaction and passes should be shown seperately, like the character samples in the book do). You may split up that initiative pass into physical or matrix actions and any bonus initiative passes from wired reflexes must be taken in the physical.

You can argue all you want that you paid for that right since its more expensive. But you didn't, just because something is more expensive doesn't mean it does something it wasn't designed or intended to do. (my house costs more than my car but I can't drive it to work). At best you could argue you should use your physical reaction in AR but not the additional passes.

Just my thoughts, as I am new to SR4, though fairly familiar with how SR3 ran. Also this is my first post so feel free to debate.

ugh, forget magic, forget weapons, forget everything else, the first book that needs to come out after runner havens are unwired!

I actually looked into this further, and according to the rules for adjusting initiative, there isn't even an arguement for using the modified reaction from wired reflexes on the AR usable initiative pass (you would adjust the initiative score as noted in the rules for initiative in the combat section, either up or down depending when they decide to use the AR pass).

Also, when talking about AR initiative, they state "regular meat-body speeds". Regular alludes to the unmodified speed. Meat by slang definition is unaugmented by cyberware (or the part left behind when you VR). Effectively saying the unmodified unaugmented-body speeds.

What does confuse me is does that imply that since you have a lower initiative score as an AR action, that the AR usable pass would be the last one out of the total of physical (modified) passes? Note that this doesn't dispute the intent of AR as the same thing would occur if a character "switched on" his/her wireless reflexes as a free action after a regular attack when they were off. (suddenly gaining a higher initiative score and therefore shooting faster than the previous attack....).

Only thing I can think of is that you resolve the wired reflex passes and actions first rather than last. This would then mean that a wired character would get its actions not only first (if they had the higher initiative score) but would take their extra passes first. So a SAM with WR2 and the higher initiative score would definitely get three passes before an unmodified character would get one.

Any thoughts?

if they wanted us to use the unmodified meat reaction and passes there is one word they could use that would lead to no confusion. yep, its "unmodified".

anything else can and will be interpeted until the cows go on strike and we have to load the orbital launcher with whales...