 Making Strength stronger |
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 Jul 12 2006, 09:34 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 14-November 03 From: MSP Metroplex Member No.: 5,822  |
This is inspired by the poll that seems to elect Strength the most useless attribute. I would have to agree. If all the attributes cost the same in BPs, then they should be equally useful. Here's the question: how can you make it more useful through houserules?
1) encumbrance rules? 2) using Strength to offset recoil? 3) enforce strength minimums to use certain guns? 3.5) allow strong character to use 2-handed guns one-handed? and here's one I've been thinking about, untested, and probably controversial: 4) change base melee damage from Str/2 to Str. This will increase the damage done by melee weapons from 1-4 points, typically. A troll with a sword could do 10+ points of damage. Really, a strong troll should be able to chop an unarmored person in half with a sword, but is this getting too harsh? Any other ideas? Dread Polack |
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Jul 12 2006, 09:39 PM
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#2
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
I think except for changing the damage codes, those all sound like pretty decent ideas. The Melee damage change could quickly run in to problems from a balance perspective and would really need some playtesting.
2 and 3 could be combined, maybe add a recoil penalty to really low strength characters for certain types of guns, while allowing characters with really high strength to offset some recoil. |
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Jul 12 2006, 09:58 PM
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#3
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Encumbrance rules already exist, so there's no need to house rules those. Either the gear book or the 'ware book will incorporate the optional rule for strength supplying recoil compensation. I assume it will work like SR3 did, as opposed to the earlier versions which were too beefy.
3 and 3.5 seem unnecessary to me. Actually, I think it's logical for strength to be an undervalued ability 60 years from now. We're already at a point where being strong is mostly used for people doing labor jobs and people wanting to look buff. 60 years from now the trend will probably continue so that people strong enough to do really heavy lifting might be a massive minority. |
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Jul 12 2006, 09:58 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
We already have encumbrance rules:
[ Spoiler ] Do you mean encumbrance rules that are significantly tougher than that? In that case, I'd vote no. I think #2 is sufficient to make strength more attractive to a lot of characters, but it does make the troll merc with the HMG really, really scary. |
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Jul 12 2006, 10:24 PM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 70 Joined: 20-January 06 Member No.: 8,185 |
Well, the book does specifically mention big trolls firing Panther cannons, when done carefully.
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Jul 12 2006, 11:16 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 18-April 03 From: The UV Nexus Member No.: 4,474 |
Enforce gun control. |
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Jul 13 2006, 12:11 AM
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#7
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I'd be a bigger fan of the encumberance rules if they'd bothered to include any vague suggestions as to how much half the shit in the game weighs. I work off RL knowledge for most of it, but telling a non-gunner friend "look, dude, that much armor, ammo, grenades, and weaponry easily runs 30+ kilos" can get annoying after a while.
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Jul 13 2006, 06:23 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,754 |
I've always used the houserule that strength adds RC. Glad to see others use it too :)
Specifically, 6 str is 1 RC, 9 str is 2 RC, 12 is 3, and 15 is 4. But I'm considering lowering this to 5, 8, 11, and 14 to make it more attainable - my players so far have ignored the houserule and still dump strength and don't pick orcs and trolls :/ Another thing I do to make strength more worthwhile is I've changed the running and swimming rules. Now running is a free action that doesn't prevent the character from taking other free actions, but doing it more than once doesn't stack. So if you have enough dice to reliably avoid glitching (which makes you trip), you might as well use the skill to add an extra meter or two per IP. |
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Jul 13 2006, 02:30 PM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
You also could change armor encumbrance from Body*2 to Strength+Body.
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Jul 13 2006, 04:05 PM
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#10
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
I like Butterblume's suggestion of having armor encumberance based on Strength+Body.
Allowing free RC based on strength is something which has appeared in previous editions and makes enough sense for me to allow it if good enough rules could be made for it. Just so that it actually gives a penalty to weak characters, I'd also suggest a revamp whereby the 'no recoil from the first bullet' rule is removed. How much recoil compensation to provide, however? Str/2, Str/3, or Str/4? Round up or down? I personally think that it should round down, so that someone really weak (str 1 or 2) has 0RC and so would be on a penalty to fire most weapons if the 'no recoil from first bullet' rule was removed. Perhaps free RC = Str/3, rounding down, with recoil from every bullet If you're still keeping the rules whereby there's no recoil from the first bullet then perhaps Free RC= STR/4, rounding down |
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Jul 13 2006, 04:07 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
Or, you could just put PCs who ignore the STR stat into a situation that requires STR to save their lives.
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Jul 13 2006, 04:28 PM
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#12
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
I'll second that statement as well. Relying on body only to reflect the ability to wear armor and effectively move is not realistic. I personally have a better than average body (based on my size, nothing more) but my strength (especially for purposes of endurance) is probably on the low average side of the scale. Wearing armor will wear me out faster than any of my skinny friends with average strength simply because I have to wear more armor and carry my above average self around along with it. |
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 Jul 13 2006, 05:18 PM
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#13
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,353 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Adding recoil compensation is an obvious one (and certainly will be an optional rule in some upcoming book, as it was before).
Also switching armor encumbrance from Body to Strength might be worth a thought. Bye Thanee |
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Jul 13 2006, 05:21 PM
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#14
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
Personally I would see armor, with the exception of FBA, using Body + Agi if anything other than just body. All it would really serve to do is make trolls and orcs even stronger for their BP cost than they already are. Also, to one of the suggestions above, how can you possibly even consider adding recoil to the first shot? There is no recoil until AFTER it has been fired. Ergo the first bullet cannot be affected by it. |
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Jul 13 2006, 05:26 PM
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#15
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
The problem is that there are very few areas which require personal strength, or even require actual strength at-all. I need to move that heavy object, do I? A mage can levitate it or summon a strong spirit to move it. It could be blasted through, or worked around, ETC. The enemy is grappleing me? Thank goodness I have shock frills or touch-range spells. @X-Kalibur: Hmm. Having never fired a firearm, I'm no expert on this. What you say makes sense though, so I'll retract the suggestion for now. |
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Jul 13 2006, 05:34 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
You can give bonuses to intimidation tests for characters with high Str. A lot of visible muscle helps to intimidate.
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Jul 13 2006, 05:37 PM
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#17
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Erm... Making strength more powerful/useful is the whole point of this. As both trolls and orcs get an equal or larger bonus to body than they do to strength, I don't see how this woudl make them more powerful. The one race it would make more powerful is Dwarves. Dwarves get a larger bonus to strength than they do body, but dwarves are so strong anyway (and strength is so useless) that I've never seen a non-melee dwarf put a point in strength. 3 is usually fine.
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Jul 13 2006, 05:47 PM
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#18
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Well, that's covered already with the 'subject is physically imposing in some way' modifier, which maxxes at +3 dice. I suppose you could increase that cap slightly, or add direct mechanics for it, but as it stands I don't see why ultra-big muscles would be more of a bonus than some other displayed physical ability. Also, I'd have said that size (more accurately a function of body and strength) was just-as or possibly more important than plain-old biceps. I mean look at cats who arch their backs to look bigger, or peacoks who have the big tail fans to frighten-off would-be attackers. |
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Jul 13 2006, 05:49 PM
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#19
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
I would agree that having a recoil penalty prior to the first shot makes no sense at all. I think to penalize very low strength characters perhaps they should lose a dice because being physically underdeveloped makes it difficult to hold a gun steady, as an example I am a much better shot with a .22 rifle on a bench rest than prone or standing and using the encumbrance rules I'd probably have a 4 strength. I would also say that really low strength characters might get an additional recoil penalty, maybe +1 on the second shot as the gun bucks further off target. |
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Jul 13 2006, 05:52 PM
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#20
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Target Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 26-June 06 Member No.: 8,783 |
It might be hard to implement, but I'd like to see certain physical skills currently based only on Agility incorporate Strength as well. For example, real-world gymnastics depends easily as much on pure muscle power as on coordination. There's a reason why the Iron Cross is considered really challenging.
Also, I second the notion of Intimidation in combination with Strength. Hell, I think Intimidation can come in many forms -- basically anything bad-ass enough to strike fear into the heart of one's adversary. The whole William Tell, shoot-an-apple-off-my-head thing... that's pretty terrifying. Envision a ganger's reaction when you part his mohawk with a bullet. :) -S |
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Jul 13 2006, 06:08 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,754 |
I'm no gun expert, but I do have a bit of experience firing different types of firearms. There certainly is recoil in the first shot. The gunpowder in a bullet explodes while still in the chamber, which is what causes the kick. It happens quick, but it's slow enough to affect your aim. Take a shotgun for example: when you're shooting skeet, you're generally only going to need one shot (and with many shotguns you have no choice). Does that mean you can shoot at the hip? No, you still need to hold the stock against your shoulder or your shot is going to be way off because otherwise the recoil is going to throw you off balance. And even then, a 100 lb girl is going to have a tougher time than a 200 lb man.
Now game balance wise, I think the gun skills simulate this initial recoil well enough. I don't like the idea of penalizing characters for having low strength beyond having less goodies than someone with high strength. Characters SHOULD have a dump stat because stats are so expensive. I thought the idea behind this thread is to make strength more attractive so players will consider using a different stat as a dump stat, not force characters to have 3 strength or more. |
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Jul 13 2006, 06:29 PM
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#22
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Theoretically as soon as the bullet and the propellant gases start traveling forward inside the gun there is some recoil force acting on the weapon itself. However, the timeframe within which such a force would have to screw up your aim to affect the accuracy of the first shot is measured in microseconds. Let's assume a 5" barrel from which a projectile will exit at 1200fps, and that the projectile will undergo constant acceleration within the barrel. The average velocity of the bullet within the barrel is then 600fps, so it clears the muzzle in ~0.0007 seconds. Even ignoring that the propellant and the projectile are still contained within the weapon at this point and the effect this has on any mechanical work the weapon does on its surroundings (like the shooter), how far do you figure the force of the recoil will manage to shift the muzzle before the bullet is well out of it? That's a rhetorical question, BTW.
That's got nothing to do with recoil. With a long arm, even with no recoil whatsoever, firing from the shoulder with one hand on the grip and on on the fore end is the most accurate firing posture because it allows 3 points of contact to the weapon. |
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Jul 13 2006, 06:42 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
In my (limited) shooting experience, the only reason recoil affects aim in a single shot is because the shooter is over compensating for the recoil before they actually shoot. Reactively pulling the gun down to counter the recoil before the recoil happen, and that would be from a lack of skill, not strength.
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Jul 13 2006, 07:21 PM
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#24
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
Well, to be fair I could see low str players getting penalized for firing Long Bursts or Full Auto, but certainly not SA or Short Burst.
As for strength being more attractive, lets face it, there are going to be situations where guns aren't available. Now what? |
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Jul 13 2006, 07:57 PM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 67 Joined: 30-May 06 Member No.: 8,621 |
as my team's Troll with destructo-levels of strength, i have to say, i am for the built in RC, and for giving a penalty for having 1 str, i am for having rules on using a gun in one hand that really shouldn't be (a shotgun or a machine gun for instance), but i am against having melee weapons changed to str.
very opposed to that. Why? combat ax. for balance purposes, it makes melee combat ultra deadly and pushes my base damage to 15P. Sure, a troll with an ax should have a one shot kill most of the time if he hits, but thats enough to take down most materialized spirits when a mundane is the one doing the swinging. I like the idea of making strength more useful, but regrettably, its never going to happen in my group. They already think its too powerful and want to nerf it. As if being a troll wasn't a penalty enough... oh, and as an afterthought, changing armot limit to body + str is good too. |
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