 Making Strength stronger |
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 Jul 13 2006, 08:20 PM
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#26
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Horror  Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445  |
From my own experiance with shooting, I would also say that it is precompensation that affects the first shot's aim. When someone's been taught to aim properly but has never actually fired a live round before, their first shot is almost always right where they were pointing it.
The rest of learning to shoot is learning to properly compensate. ^_^ |
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Jul 13 2006, 08:21 PM
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#27
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 16-October 05 Member No.: 7,850 |
How about also having jump test be STR + Gym instead of AGL + Gym? I have also thought about averaging STR and AGL for some skills though haven't really tried it out or given too much thought on which besides melee combat.
@Lilt I have always thought casting spells requires gesturing and thus are not able to be performed when subdued since they "cannot take any actions requiring physical movement." Though to make STR more important I have just two words TROLL ARCHER. I mean doing 17DV (21DV with calling a shot) out to 900 meters, it is perfectly legal and there is nothing the GM can do about it! :grinbig: |
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Jul 13 2006, 08:23 PM
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#28
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Other than saying "No." |
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Jul 13 2006, 08:26 PM
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#29
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
I wouldn't have a problem with high levels of strength granting recoil compensation, but I think penalising low strength characters is a dubious concept.
A low strength character is already limited from firing large weapons by the weapon's weight. I'm sure that there are many weapon experts here who can quote the weight of an SMG or even a machine gun, but given that a character with strength 2 can only carry 20kg without incurring a penalty... well, you can see what I'm getting at. Strength does come in handy in many situations, and if a group has noone with a strength above 3 they are going to be in trouble whenever those situations arise. The most obvious is of course melee combat, but they could also need to lift something heavy, such as a sewer grate. An example I have from a game I ran recently follows. 2 Street Sams had fought their way into a mob boss's compound, to restrict their pursuers they used their prodigious strength to shove a big chest freezer up against the door. If they hadn't both been pretty buff (with certain 'ware to help them) they wouldn't have been able to move it fast enough. |
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Jul 13 2006, 08:46 PM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
I am with you on that. After all, why should low strength be punished this way. when all the other stats are not? For example, I wouldn't give a char an extra penalty in social tests just because that chars happens to have low charisma, or an extra penalty on a toxin resistance roll because his body is low. Changing melee damage to Str instead of Str/2 is a NO. This would really unbalance damage for chars with higher strength. |
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Jul 13 2006, 08:49 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Iraq Member No.: 1,789 |
But ornot the obvious cop-out to your situation is: "MAGIC"
Because the mage/shaman/spell-slinger just could have conjured up a "strong" spirit to do it "so much faster", which is what Lilt is getting at. I think STR is important for more than just melee. I support the RC based off STR extra rule and carrying weights are a little hokey. I, personally, as a GM would not allow a single person with a 1 in any stat (no matter what), because each of them are useful in and of themselves. |
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Jul 13 2006, 09:06 PM
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#32
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
I agree with this position, if you're going to have an extreme high or low stat it needs to be cleared with the GM and it needs to make sense in character. Further if you take a 1 in a stat you should get disadvantages fot doing so, I don't think handing out a penalty to someone with 1 Strength trying to fire an Ares Predator that represents 20-25% of his total carrying capacity is unreasonable (Ok at the low end the carrying capacities get a little silly). |
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 Jul 13 2006, 09:14 PM
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#33
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,353 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
My recoil house rule:
;) Bye Thanee |
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Jul 13 2006, 09:20 PM
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#34
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
If the carrying capacity is that silly, then going out of your way to house rule additional penalties related to it is pretty unreasonable. I could only ever be considered STR 2 by ruling out STR 1 as "crippled" or "adolescent", and I never had trouble with a 1kg handgun or a 3.5kg assault rifle. I would have been in trouble if I had to fire a very heavy weapon (in the 7+kg range) from the shoulder without support, especially at long ranges -- fortunately the FDF standard LMG can't really be fired like that. Otherwise, well, keep in mind that the #1 weapon of choice of child soldiers everywhere is the 4.3kg empty AK-47. |
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Jul 13 2006, 09:58 PM
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#35
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
Ok I was using 2kg or 2.5kg for the Predator (which may be wrong that was from memory) and the carrying capacity rules which state that you can lift and carry STR x 10kg without requiring any lifting test (which means that a loaded AK would account for 50% of your carrying capacity!). My understanding is that Carrying Capacity is representative of your total load carrying ability (so add up clothes, accessories, a backpack etc) meaning that to have a strength of 1 (ie only able to carry a grand total of about 22 pounds) is a catagory that most healthy adults don't fit in. It's a case of bad rules inconsistency because at the low end which is described as weak a Person could only carry 10kg. However Maximum Unaugmented Strength means being able to carry 60kg or roughly 135lbs. However for all the weirdness at the extremes 3-4 work pretty well 30-40kg (66-88llbs) because the typical to slightly above average person probably could throw on a pack with 50-60lbs and go hiking. Carrying capacity also completely fails to account for load distribution, but that's a whole new subject. However putting all those issues aside 10kg x Strength is the way the game was designed and given those parameters a 1 Strength character should in my opinion have more difficulty handling a 1-2kg Pistol than a 2 Strength character and the 1 Strength character may not be even able to use an assault rifle. My issue isn't so much the realism as it is the fact that I disapprove of dumpstats and I think that there should be consequences for building extremely min-maxed characters. |
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Jul 13 2006, 10:16 PM
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#36
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Yeah, it weighed something like that according the books. That, too, is unreasonable. :)
If you aren't looking for realism, then saying this is kinda pointles... but "STR 1" people can definitely fire most assault rifles and handguns just fine in the real world. If you can hold 2lbs relatively steady 2 feet in front of you, you won't have trouble with most long arms. With firearms as heavy as those described in canon SR3 there might be trouble. Fortunately, as a general rule, people don't make guns that stupid. Like I said, though, I would've had trouble firing particularly heavy weapons from the shoulder without support, and I'm not going to say a STR 2 guy should realistically be able to fire a 15kg machine gun from the shoulder with perfect accuracy, but I really feel that sort of thing shouldn't need any specific rules. |
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Jul 13 2006, 10:17 PM
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#37
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
One of the fastest ways to show people why you shouldn't dump strength is to have them try to drag an unconcious teammate or move a large object. Admittedly, summoners can get around this, but even with them present, you can get around this (for example, there could be astral surveilance looking for bigass spirits... summoning one to carry something would draw fire).
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Jul 13 2006, 10:35 PM
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#38
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
The same was true in previous editions, although there were options to take geasa to offset magic loss and similar which I'm sure will come back in Street Magic. One of these was 'gesture', whereby mages would need to gesture to cast spells at full power. If the geas was broken mages could still use magic, albeit at a higher TN, so mages have never really needed to gesture in shadowrun.
@ornot: Strength can be used to overcome obstacles, but many characters don't need personal strength. IE: I can dump strength, but still rely on summoned spirits or levitate spells to overcome obstacles through 'strength'. A well-stocked, large, chest freezer would probably weigh 400KG or so and have an OR of 3. That's based on this big-looking freezer here. Casting levitate to move it would require a threashold of 6, thus a force 6 spell with DV 4. A good mage with the levitate spell (fairly common from my experience) could thus probably cast the spell, given a coupple of attempts, and take the drain on average. Once the spell is cast, however, moving the freezer should be much faster. That's only one character, and if there's a strong sammie around too (or two mages) then a mid-force earth spirit (or two) should be able to move it as well as the sammies. @Shrike30: That situation strikes me as being somewhat contrived. Why would dragging the downed teammate out anyway draw less fire? If the answer is that the fire is purely astral then a levitate spell should suffice and couldn't be stopped from the astral alone. The only situation I can think of where personal strength is needed more than anything else is if someone demands an arm-wrestle with the character in a social situation. I've never seen such a situation arise, however, and probably won't spring it on my current party who have an uber-strong troll (str 11?). Even then, I suspect any roll would be strength+body rather than pure strength. |
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Jul 13 2006, 10:49 PM
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#39
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
Yeah I agree that in reality the average guy probably wouldn't have much difficulty with an M-16. I would imagine that most weapons procured by an army (US or or foreign) probably are looking for effective firepower in a lightweight frame that's easy to use (which pretty much describes none of the canon cannons). Most of the sport rifles I've fired (mostly .22) didn't require much strength to handle at all (and for tha matter probably weighed less than the canon predator). I won't go so far as to say I don't care about realism but I'm probably more willing than most around here to give some up for game playability or or balance. Still good to know about the reality of firearms though, for personal edification if nothing else. |
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Jul 13 2006, 10:55 PM
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#40
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
*shrug* If your group is hiding somewhere downrange and trying to carry a wounded/unconcious teammate with them, they might be trying to hide. Whipping up a force 6 spirit to help them carry their too-heavy sammie teammate is a real good way for the opposition's mage to mark their position on AR and have his teammates start launching grenades at it.
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Jul 13 2006, 11:20 PM
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#41
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
That is a forseeable circumstance, but summoning a low-force spirit should still pass unnoticed.
[ Spoiler ]
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Jul 14 2006, 02:26 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 498 Joined: 31-May 02 From: All the way in the Back to the Left. Member No.: 2,800 |
So kill the weak and Might makes Right? Great plan. Next you can make the Sammies fight just magical threats. :please: |
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Jul 14 2006, 04:35 AM
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#43
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 16-October 05 Member No.: 7,850 |
I never really played SR before SR4 I was basing that off the noticing magic on page 168. I don't know that I like magic just being only concentration, but that is more a personal thing as I like there to be a ways to spot and then to restrain a mage with out knocking out or killing them. As a side note it doesn't seem that a mage would be able to use a touch spell unless he breaks free of subduing since the act of touching requires a melee attack. He could then still drop a mana ball on his position and hope his grappler doesn't have any counter spelling available. |
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Jul 14 2006, 04:41 AM
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#44
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 16-October 05 Member No.: 7,850 |
I was thinking more of balancing adventures/runs so that people have to be flexable and not completely specialized. Making a low str person have to run and there by make str checks doesn't seem too bad to me, it is after all something that they could have points in unlike a Sammy with magical threats. |
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Jul 14 2006, 05:44 AM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
Trouble is that 400BP isn't really that much.
If a player wants his character to be an expert in his field then he must spend several points for it. These points must come from areas that are less important to the character's concept and resposibilities. Putting such an emphasis on Str penalizes everyone who plays a character whose ' Str is less important to his job, such as a Hacker. Making players roll for fatigue if they have been running is fine, but as a Player I need to know why I have to run instead of attempting to sneak up, or casually walk up and bluff an guards into believing that I should be there. If encumberance rules are to be used then it would be useful to have some weights listed for the equipment. seam of them I can look up and figure out, but others I really have no Idea. Ex: How much does a Tool Kit weigh? How big is it? The one I have at work I move with wheels. |
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Jul 14 2006, 10:14 AM
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#46
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Target Group: Members Posts: 67 Joined: 30-May 06 Member No.: 8,621 |
oddly, the troll i play uses a bow, at my GM's recommendation. then after i told him that i do more damage with a single (javelin sized) arrow than an assault cannon, he capped damage at 8. then at 6. I still haven't actually USED it. he's pretty much implied i won't be getting anything better weapon wise. And that is the GM's peroggative. And for the record, i don't actually approve of maxing out damage like that. When you make something like that, theres only one thing that character can do, and they'll be able to out perform everyone in the party by a disgusitng amount. 21P is equivilent to 9 kilos of rating 7 commercial explosives. At that point, you're using a arbalest or a ballista with pinpoint precision. Don't complain when "you take 2P of fire damage which you can easily resist, and oh yea, your bowstring snaps." slips from your gm's lips. as for gymnastics: try not to get things too complicated. The logical conclusion would be "well, since it requires coorination, timing, agility, power and precision, you would average these 4-5 stats and add it to the skill". Gymnastics works off agility. Running works off strength. Its a fair trade. |
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Jul 14 2006, 10:43 AM
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#47
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
My example wasn't supposed to supply a situation where strength trumps all else, merely one where it is useful. There ought to be multiple ways of solving a problem anyway. In the example I gave there was no spell slinger about and in fact I didn't put the freezer there to be used as a barricade. There happened to be a big freezer as they had entered via a storage room behind a kitchen and the decision to barricade the door with it was their own.
Frankly saying strength is useless 'cos a magician can always summon a spirit to do heavy lifting is like saying guns are useless cos a magician can always sling a combat spell. It doesn't help out non-magic types much. |
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Jul 14 2006, 10:48 AM
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#48
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Well, spotting is still possible even if they don't need to gesture. They can vary it from spell to spell, and if they don't gesture then they'll make-up for it in different ways, like chanting. if they choose not to gesture or chant, then they may just sit there looking constipated, grunting, and convulsing. Regardless, only concentration is needed to cast the spell but the spell as as easy or hard to notice as the noticing magic rules say it is. Sadly, I don't think any mundane forces will ever be able to restrain a mage without knocking out or killing them. Even if the mage did need to gesture, he could still astrally project and summon a spirit to free him. In 3rd edition MitS added the Magemask, a hood specifically designed to restrain spellcasters. Not only did it block LOS, I think it also had a high OR (it was hard to destroy with a powerbolt), and a white noise generator which gave +6 on magical TNs (probably -6 to magical dice pools under 4th edition) and meant that casters had to make a fairly tough willpower test to project. That was good, especially with the fact that casters couldn't summon when projecting in 3rd edition, but unless you had some form of awakened support then the mage could just project (most mages could do the will test given a coupple of attempts) and get help from friends.
You only need to make a melee attack if you need to touch an unwilling target. Cuddles the troll is most willing to touch you, in-fact that's part of the problem.
In any case, if the GM chooses that interpretation then the caster can still Mannabolt or Control Thoughts his assailant as long as he can see them. If he can't see his assailant then he can summon something. Grapples are a fairly good way to take-out weak non-mage characters, however. They're one of the very few ways (bows are the other one) that damage can be based on strength rather than strength/2. Still, shock frills are a good way to defend against grapples, so any potential grapplers should really grab armor with the Nonconductivity modification. @Dender: There's a troll with a bow in my game, but he's not used it yet. This is largely because it's too hard to transport stealthily. It is, after-all, probably somewhere between 8 and 10 feet long. That's easily less concealable than a sniper rifle, the ammunition is more expencive than sniper rifle ammo, and sniper rifles can choose to use more powerful ammunition if they wish to (such-as AV, EX-E, Flechette), the skill to use sniper-rifles is more versatile (it covers some full-auto and burst-fire weapons too, plus shotguns which allow for the use of the spread rules), and sniper rifles don't require a huge strength to use (how many BP/:nuyen: did you spend boosting strength?). Perhaps point some of these factors out to your GM if you want him to change his tune. |
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Jul 14 2006, 10:58 AM
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#49
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
And my counter-example was to show that the DM can throw very few situations at a party that require strength. The same could also be said about guns, no situations require them. I don't think that anyone would complain if a party was made without guns, making them 'dump-equipment' if you will, but as it stands strength is a fairly common dump-stat and some people don't like that by concept. |
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Jul 14 2006, 11:02 AM
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#50
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
I'm pretty certain you don't need to see a subject you can touch. I'll try and find you a page reference, but I don't have my RAW with me.
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