What ammunition is SR Canon standard, Raygun or anyone? Options

[Steel Eyes]

I don't remember seeing this anywhere and was just curious.
What is the standard size round for each category(Heavy Pistol, Shotgun, smg, Heavy Machine Gun, Sniper, etc....)

[TheOneRonin]

From what I've read, SR decided to avoid listing "calibers" for it's firearms as a way to simplify the game. However, that method doesn't satisfy everyone (Raygun and I espeically). Check out his site: Shadowrun and Firearms, and this page in particular http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/ammo/cartridg.html for a good idea of which calibers belong where.

As for standard, in my games use the following:

Light pistols: .32, .38, or 9mm (most common)
Heavy pistols: .40 S&W, 10mm, .45 ACP
SMG: 9mm and .40 S&W
Shotgun: 20 guage, 16 guage, and 12 guage (most common)
Assault Rifle: 5.56mm x 45 (most common), 7.62 x39 (AK's)
LMG's: 5.56mm x 45 (like M249 SAW)
MMG's: 7.62mm x 51 (like M-60)
HMG's: 12.7mm x 99 (alias .50 cal BMG)
Sniper: 7.62mm x51, .300 Winchester, .338 Lapua

Those are the most common ones, though I use many more types of ammuntion in my games. This should give you a basic start, though.

[Raygun]

What Ronin said.

Each weapon class has its own ammunition that can be swapped between any weapon of the same class. For example, a Colt Manhunter and a Ares Predator, both being Heavy Pistols, can share ammunition. However, you can't use Heavy Pistol ammuntion in an SMG, and you can't use SMG ammunition in an Assault Rifle and so on.

All of that is talked about on page 279 of SR3.

[Slamm-O]

considering its the future, they use different calibers, things that have probably evolved from todays smaller armor-defeating ammunition types (4.7, 5.7, etc.) except that they have evolved because armor certainly has and they must keep up, so none of todays ammunition is used, almost certainly.

and certainly they did not decide to go back to the 50's and start using ammo that is outdated even by todays standards, like the 7.62x39 caliber round that has already been replaced by the 5.45, which can compete with the more modern ammo types like the soon to be replaced 5.56 etc.

[Raygun]

If everyone including your next door neighbor's grandma ends up wearing body armor, that might be true. Unfortunately, that's extremely unlikely. While every shadowrunner, police officer, security guard and infantryman might wear body armor regularly (doubtful), the, oh, 9.5-ish billion other people on the planet won't, and they don't need AP ammunition for other uses, such as hunting and competition.

I can gaurantee you that plenty of people will be using AKs and 7.62x39mm sixty years from now. Not only because there are reportedly 100,000,000 AK-type rifles floating around in this world, but consider this. Both the 9mm Parabellum and .45 ACP, two of the most popular handgun cartridges available today, which also happen to be right around 100 years old, can easily be stopped by common forms of body armor today. Yet manufacturers still produce pistols and submachine guns, in those calibers. Lots of them. Hell, in the US alone, making .45 ACP ammo amd the guns that fire them is a multi million-dollar industry in its own right.

Why is that? They should be worthless, right?

[Slamm-O]

to address the first point, every lonstar officer military grunt and security officer and shadowrunner does wear body armor. (per the achetypes) as do many of the civilian archetypes (hence armor CLOTHING and the armored suits, working jumpsuits and such.). in real life you have places like bulletproofme.com that cater to civilians and armor your everyday clothing, and in this much more dangerous future the wealthy nations like the ucas would have civilians who armor themselves.

also, im talking about evolution of ammo, specifically in response to the evolution of body armor, that is weapons have always evolved. There were billions of years before the first evoluytion of the gun (from nothing) so time does not equal innovation, need does.

anyway, i dont need to convince you that you are wrong, i already know this. it is the most ridiculous thing ive heard all week. But if you want to play with enhanced ammo rules, i can see why youd rather substitute current ammo than have to invent ammo that obviously hasnt come around yet, you are no scientist im sure.

[Diesel]

Not to mention the massive stockpiles. Why spend money on new ammu when you have a billion rounds of the original? You'll need new guns to fire the new rounds, and all that costs money. Otherwise governments would give their soldiers new rifles every year or two.

[Slamm-O]

well they did have that whole euro war thing, and all the ongoing regional conflicts (phillipines, africa, and atzlan come to mind) and you think they would keep making old ammo (the old stockpiles will go bad, no?) for these wars? these major wars between powerful world armies didnt spur development though? people on todays streets here in cali use weapons from our last major war, vietnam (and the gulf, same weapons, easy war no need for innovation) or newer. They arent using weapons from ww2, maybe the guys with the shittiest guns are, but no one is using guns from ww1, they are all relics now.

yet you think that we as a world will either continue to make 40-50 year old weapons for years to come, or reuse these gunes when they are 100+ yrs old.

[Siege]

Sorry Slam -- Ray makes more sense than you do.

You might make a case for SRT units carrying armor-defeating ammo, but for the rank-and-file who deal with unarmored civilians, standard 9mm, .40 and .45 ammo loads are just fine.

And while you can buy and wear armor -- it's expensive stuff and hardly common place, even in this day and age. Not to mention bloody uncomfortable for casual, daily wear.

-Siege

[Shadow]

Hey Slamm, you are right about us not using weapons from ww1. We sure aren't that dumb. But guess what. We used the same round, the Enfield, for our sniper riffles from ww1 right up into today. When someone makes a new riffle they chamber it for the old round, why? Proven reliability. Think of it this way.

When the US Navy Seals go on an Operation, they take with them H&K SOCOM pistols that are chambered for the .45cal. This is a round that's been around for over a hundred years and will continue to be around for a hundred more. Now the technology of the bullet may change, the material it's made of may change, hell the shape of it may change, but the caliber will remain the same. And that is what were talking about here.

[Slamm-O]

let me try to explain it.

armor has gotten good, so good that it has made it vurtually impossable to defeat with conventional rounds, hence the low number of gunshot deaths among us soldiers in iraq, even an rpk cant penetrate their vest.

faced with this type of body armor, and the prospect of a war between two groups of nations, each one fielding this armor, the coalitions of nations decided to develop armor defeating rounds and weapons, the 5.7 and 4.7 for nato.

these weapons as i understqand it render kevlar and ceramic plates as little more than an obstacle, what the flak jacket did in vietnam.

So what then? then the armor companies in shadowrun have to develop better armor (hence the kevlar 5 or whatever that sr2 says they make armor out of, among other materials)

then the weapons manufacturers must develop better rounds, better than the cutting edge 4.7 and 5.7 family rounds which ALREADY REPLACE our current ammo, against armored targets current ammo loads are impotent.

would anyone really argue that the archetypes in sr dont all wear armor? and this armor is described as being made of yet un developed materials, presumably stronger, so why would people fighting opponents thus armored, use ammo loads taht are ineffective by todays standards?

btw, so everyone else here thinks it makes sense that the AK went back to 7.62 instead of 5.45?

[Shadow]

Excuse me, but what production pistols fire a 5.7/4.7 round?

And just so you know, soldiers don't wear armor, or at least very few. Mostly just Ranger's when they expect city fighting use flak jackets. The entire time I was in the army I only ever wore armor when I was on guard duty at the main gate.

[Entropy Kid]

While the same ammunition will probably be used sixty years from now, I think things would likely be different in SR's 2060. If cybeware, AI, and rigging are possible, a lot of other things would be as well. It's an environment where today's impossible is ordinary (I'm not even including magic).

Also, because of cyberware, a lot more people will have forms of "body armor" even when not wearing their kevlar (or the 2060 replacement) vest. Dermal plating and other types of protective cyberware won't be common to most people, but it's another thing for weapons to defeat. Even "normal" cyberlimbs make targets harder to kill (bonus Body stat).

Who knows what kind of ammunition will be used in a future like SR. As far as I know, there's no canon list besides "heavy pistol," "smg," etc. one for each weapon category. It's less realistic, but makes sense in a game aspect.

I don't know ballistics, so I don't know if current ammunition sizes would work (maybe with improved propellants and/or harder materials) in the SR 2060's, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were all kinds of crazy rounds. If not using advanced firearms rules, like those on Raygun's site (I like the detail), it's probably not worth thinking too much about.

[Steel Eyes]

I go to Raygun's site all the time I don't know how I missed that page :eek: .

Thanks TheOneRonin :grinbig:

[Raygun]

[Slamm-O]

on the m2, i wasnt talking about designs, i was talking about the actual guns, the pieces of metal.

those shitty mini assault rifles (ak 10x) are nothing but proof of concept, they have a 5.45 and 5.56 model too, so why fly with one over the other? especially the one that uses the outdated ammo?

nato is still planning a transition to the 5.7 4.7, though since ww3 never happened they might wait until the next generation of ammo to transfer.

as far as the weight et al of armor, i am assuming that gets better to deal with the 5.7 4.7 and 5.45 rounds, that link of yours proves my point, replacing the older ammo in the event of a war with a wealthy nation, we went to a different caliber they developed a new one of the same caliber, but in your world they get rid of that ap round for the old 7.62

[Raygun]

*sniffle* :( (He edited the flaming, darn it!)

[Slamm-O]

oh, sorry raygun, had a fight with someone on this end, i am just tired of everyone trying to make the rules in sr gel with rl stuff, even when it looks like asquare peg and a round hole.

but i understand people who love guns wanting to expand the rules to accomodate rl differences in guns and ammo.

its a moot point, i should tell the original poster taht fasa/fanpro/whoever never put calibers and im sure never will as the game is supposed to be in the future and they dont want to look out of date

(like the 3mb of ram in neuromancer)

off to bed then, to cool down

soz all

[Kagetenshi]

Hehehe aww... *Hugs Raygun*

~J

[Slamm-O]

i believe my ceramic plates guarantee they can stop like 3 7.62wp rounds, not sure, but i may take taht bet, make it 200 meters and assure me you are a great shot and wont fire more than 2...or maybe ill just keep going since i just read a story(in the news) where a soldier was hit by an rpk on full auto at less than 50 meters, no injuries whatsoever, what do you think of that? was time lying? was he lucky? id really like to know. i am going on what ive read on all of this, btw, read a lot on how great body armor is at the site where i bought in granted, but if not for ap ability why else would nato want to switch to 5.7 ? (if you can point me to a reputable article that says it was invented for something other than an ap alternative to 5.56 plz post it, cause thats all ive heard about it)

by your logic though that rpk should have at least wounded our brave young man, no?

and as for the 102, its just another akm but upgraded? or is that an oversimplification? because im not arguing that the gun isnt being used or made today (the akm that is) just that with the proliferation/improvement of body armor that it is unlikely to be used/made in 60 years, because russia has developed the 5.45 for various reasons, believing themselves that the 7.62wp is nearing its end.
i am saying that the ak 102 does not present a leap in technology, it is not a member of the 'new generation' of firearms.

[Kanada Ten]

[Slamm-O]

this was in the oct 13 time magazine, no link available sorry.

[Herald of Verjig...]

Do you mean this?

If not, take the effort to point out the exact article.

[Slamm-O]

yes that looks like the article in question

[Raygun]