I don't remember seeing this anywhere and was just curious.
What is the standard size round for each category(Heavy Pistol, Shotgun, smg, Heavy Machine Gun, Sniper, etc....)

From what I've read, SR decided to avoid listing "calibers" for it's firearms as a way to simplify the game. However, that method doesn't satisfy everyone (Raygun and I espeically). Check out his site: Shadowrun and Firearms, and this page in particular http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/ammo/cartridg.html for a good idea of which calibers belong where.

As for standard, in my games use the following:

Light pistols: .32, .38, or 9mm (most common)
Heavy pistols: .40 S&W, 10mm, .45 ACP
SMG: 9mm and .40 S&W
Shotgun: 20 guage, 16 guage, and 12 guage (most common)
Assault Rifle: 5.56mm x 45 (most common), 7.62 x39 (AK's)
LMG's: 5.56mm x 45 (like M249 SAW)
MMG's: 7.62mm x 51 (like M-60)
HMG's: 12.7mm x 99 (alias .50 cal BMG)
Sniper: 7.62mm x51, .300 Winchester, .338 Lapua

Those are the most common ones, though I use many more types of ammuntion in my games. This should give you a basic start, though.

What Ronin said.

Each weapon class has its own ammunition that can be swapped between any weapon of the same class. For example, a Colt Manhunter and a Ares Predator, both being Heavy Pistols, can share ammunition. However, you can't use Heavy Pistol ammuntion in an SMG, and you can't use SMG ammunition in an Assault Rifle and so on.

All of that is talked about on page 279 of SR3.

considering its the future, they use different calibers, things that have probably evolved from todays smaller armor-defeating ammunition types (4.7, 5.7, etc.) except that they have evolved because armor certainly has and they must keep up, so none of todays ammunition is used, almost certainly.

and certainly they did not decide to go back to the 50's and start using ammo that is outdated even by todays standards, like the 7.62x39 caliber round that has already been replaced by the 5.45, which can compete with the more modern ammo types like the soon to be replaced 5.56 etc.

If everyone including your next door neighbor's grandma ends up wearing body armor, that might be true. Unfortunately, that's extremely unlikely. While every shadowrunner, police officer, security guard and infantryman might wear body armor regularly (doubtful), the, oh, 9.5-ish billion other people on the planet won't, and they don't need AP ammunition for other uses, such as hunting and competition.

I can gaurantee you that plenty of people will be using AKs and 7.62x39mm sixty years from now. Not only because there are reportedly 100,000,000 AK-type rifles floating around in this world, but consider this. Both the 9mm Parabellum and .45 ACP, two of the most popular handgun cartridges available today, which also happen to be right around 100 years old, can easily be stopped by common forms of body armor today. Yet manufacturers still produce pistols and submachine guns, in those calibers. Lots of them. Hell, in the US alone, making .45 ACP ammo amd the guns that fire them is a multi million-dollar industry in its own right.

Why is that? They should be worthless, right?

to address the first point, every lonstar officer military grunt and security officer and shadowrunner does wear body armor. (per the achetypes) as do many of the civilian archetypes (hence armor CLOTHING and the armored suits, working jumpsuits and such.). in real life you have places like bulletproofme.com that cater to civilians and armor your everyday clothing, and in this much more dangerous future the wealthy nations like the ucas would have civilians who armor themselves.

also, im talking about evolution of ammo, specifically in response to the evolution of body armor, that is weapons have always evolved. There were billions of years before the first evoluytion of the gun (from nothing) so time does not equal innovation, need does.

anyway, i dont need to convince you that you are wrong, i already know this. it is the most ridiculous thing ive heard all week. But if you want to play with enhanced ammo rules, i can see why youd rather substitute current ammo than have to invent ammo that obviously hasnt come around yet, you are no scientist im sure.

Not to mention the massive stockpiles. Why spend money on new ammu when you have a billion rounds of the original? You'll need new guns to fire the new rounds, and all that costs money. Otherwise governments would give their soldiers new rifles every year or two.

well they did have that whole euro war thing, and all the ongoing regional conflicts (phillipines, africa, and atzlan come to mind) and you think they would keep making old ammo (the old stockpiles will go bad, no?) for these wars? these major wars between powerful world armies didnt spur development though? people on todays streets here in cali use weapons from our last major war, vietnam (and the gulf, same weapons, easy war no need for innovation) or newer. They arent using weapons from ww2, maybe the guys with the shittiest guns are, but no one is using guns from ww1, they are all relics now.

yet you think that we as a world will either continue to make 40-50 year old weapons for years to come, or reuse these gunes when they are 100+ yrs old.

Sorry Slam -- Ray makes more sense than you do.

You might make a case for SRT units carrying armor-defeating ammo, but for the rank-and-file who deal with unarmored civilians, standard 9mm, .40 and .45 ammo loads are just fine.

And while you can buy and wear armor -- it's expensive stuff and hardly common place, even in this day and age. Not to mention bloody uncomfortable for casual, daily wear.

-Siege

Hey Slamm, you are right about us not using weapons from ww1. We sure aren't that dumb. But guess what. We used the same round, the Enfield, for our sniper riffles from ww1 right up into today. When someone makes a new riffle they chamber it for the old round, why? Proven reliability. Think of it this way.

When the US Navy Seals go on an Operation, they take with them H&K SOCOM pistols that are chambered for the .45cal. This is a round that's been around for over a hundred years and will continue to be around for a hundred more. Now the technology of the bullet may change, the material it's made of may change, hell the shape of it may change, but the caliber will remain the same. And that is what were talking about here.

let me try to explain it.

armor has gotten good, so good that it has made it vurtually impossable to defeat with conventional rounds, hence the low number of gunshot deaths among us soldiers in iraq, even an rpk cant penetrate their vest.

faced with this type of body armor, and the prospect of a war between two groups of nations, each one fielding this armor, the coalitions of nations decided to develop armor defeating rounds and weapons, the 5.7 and 4.7 for nato.

these weapons as i understqand it render kevlar and ceramic plates as little more than an obstacle, what the flak jacket did in vietnam.

So what then? then the armor companies in shadowrun have to develop better armor (hence the kevlar 5 or whatever that sr2 says they make armor out of, among other materials)

then the weapons manufacturers must develop better rounds, better than the cutting edge 4.7 and 5.7 family rounds which ALREADY REPLACE our current ammo, against armored targets current ammo loads are impotent.

would anyone really argue that the archetypes in sr dont all wear armor? and this armor is described as being made of yet un developed materials, presumably stronger, so why would people fighting opponents thus armored, use ammo loads taht are ineffective by todays standards?

btw, so everyone else here thinks it makes sense that the AK went back to 7.62 instead of 5.45?

Excuse me, but what production pistols fire a 5.7/4.7 round?

And just so you know, soldiers don't wear armor, or at least very few. Mostly just Ranger's when they expect city fighting use flak jackets. The entire time I was in the army I only ever wore armor when I was on guard duty at the main gate.

While the same ammunition will probably be used sixty years from now, I think things would likely be different in SR's 2060. If cybeware, AI, and rigging are possible, a lot of other things would be as well. It's an environment where today's impossible is ordinary (I'm not even including magic).

Also, because of cyberware, a lot more people will have forms of "body armor" even when not wearing their kevlar (or the 2060 replacement) vest. Dermal plating and other types of protective cyberware won't be common to most people, but it's another thing for weapons to defeat. Even "normal" cyberlimbs make targets harder to kill (bonus Body stat).

Who knows what kind of ammunition will be used in a future like SR. As far as I know, there's no canon list besides "heavy pistol," "smg," etc. one for each weapon category. It's less realistic, but makes sense in a game aspect.

I don't know ballistics, so I don't know if current ammunition sizes would work (maybe with improved propellants and/or harder materials) in the SR 2060's, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were all kinds of crazy rounds. If not using advanced firearms rules, like those on Raygun's site (I like the detail), it's probably not worth thinking too much about.

I go to Raygun's site all the time I don't know how I missed that page .

Thanks TheOneRonin

on the m2, i wasnt talking about designs, i was talking about the actual guns, the pieces of metal.

those shitty mini assault rifles (ak 10x) are nothing but proof of concept, they have a 5.45 and 5.56 model too, so why fly with one over the other? especially the one that uses the outdated ammo?

nato is still planning a transition to the 5.7 4.7, though since ww3 never happened they might wait until the next generation of ammo to transfer.

as far as the weight et al of armor, i am assuming that gets better to deal with the 5.7 4.7 and 5.45 rounds, that link of yours proves my point, replacing the older ammo in the event of a war with a wealthy nation, we went to a different caliber they developed a new one of the same caliber, but in your world they get rid of that ap round for the old 7.62

*sniffle* (He edited the flaming, darn it!)

oh, sorry raygun, had a fight with someone on this end, i am just tired of everyone trying to make the rules in sr gel with rl stuff, even when it looks like asquare peg and a round hole.

but i understand people who love guns wanting to expand the rules to accomodate rl differences in guns and ammo.

its a moot point, i should tell the original poster taht fasa/fanpro/whoever never put calibers and im sure never will as the game is supposed to be in the future and they dont want to look out of date

(like the 3mb of ram in neuromancer)

off to bed then, to cool down

soz all

Hehehe aww... *Hugs Raygun*

~J

i believe my ceramic plates guarantee they can stop like 3 7.62wp rounds, not sure, but i may take taht bet, make it 200 meters and assure me you are a great shot and wont fire more than 2...or maybe ill just keep going since i just read a story(in the news) where a soldier was hit by an rpk on full auto at less than 50 meters, no injuries whatsoever, what do you think of that? was time lying? was he lucky? id really like to know. i am going on what ive read on all of this, btw, read a lot on how great body armor is at the site where i bought in granted, but if not for ap ability why else would nato want to switch to 5.7 ? (if you can point me to a reputable article that says it was invented for something other than an ap alternative to 5.56 plz post it, cause thats all ive heard about it)

by your logic though that rpk should have at least wounded our brave young man, no?

and as for the 102, its just another akm but upgraded? or is that an oversimplification? because im not arguing that the gun isnt being used or made today (the akm that is) just that with the proliferation/improvement of body armor that it is unlikely to be used/made in 60 years, because russia has developed the 5.45 for various reasons, believing themselves that the 7.62wp is nearing its end.
i am saying that the ak 102 does not present a leap in technology, it is not a member of the 'new generation' of firearms.

this was in the oct 13 time magazine, no link available sorry.

Do you mean this?

If not, take the effort to point out the exact article.

yes that looks like the article in question

you obviously have your views, but for what its worth you have failed to convince me.

all you have said in the way of my main argument (armor improvements are fueling a drive for better ammuntion and weapons, capable of defeating these armors) is that you are right and i am wrong, but im afraid everything i have read (at sites like bulletproofme and others, including fbi papers) contradicts what you have said.

The rpk scenario is just an example, after all why do you think that with 150,000+ troops in iraq, patrolling on foot and in thin-skinned vehicles so few have died, and almost all of these are through explosives? yet they come under fure so often? the answer is good body armor.

after all the south armagh sniper claimed as many lives as he did with a rifle, do you think that no iraqi has a rifle and would rather shoot that than an rpg? the fact is that they shoot, they hit, it has minimal effect, they die.

i am looking for links on the 5.7 to see if i was wrong, i will also look for tests on armor penetration, i am very interested as im sure you can see

edit: and i must say, that my argument may just be so much crap against rounds like the 5.56, but certainly in a world where everyone wears armor, and my heavy pistol will rather easily kill a cop in a vest w/plates, i think my argument more than holds for pistol rounds like the 45acp, perhaps they are still used, just as hold-outs.

after all, vests nowadays WILL stop even a 45 acp round, let alone 38s and such

this is interesting, though certainly not conclusive http://www.bulletproofme.com/PHOTO%20pages...ng_PHOTOS.shtml

also the new material zylon looked good, but appearently doesnt age too well

slamm-o, one story about one soldier does not set a trend. this soldier got lucky; the armor US troops are issued will not reliably stop a 7.62 burst the first time it happens, much less every time. armor is a factor in the incredibly low casualty numbers among our troops--but better training, better equipment, and better health are larger factors.

raygun has provided you with logical, concise arguments about why the 7.62 round will still be with us in 2060--the main one is that almost everybody uses it. introducing a new round to the firearms community is a very difficult proposition for a large number of reasons, not the least of which is price and availability. the FN P90 is a perfect example--it's a pretty good weapon, but one of the reasons it's not very popular is because the ammo is expensive and hard to get. this, in turn, springs from the fact that there's basically only one place that makes the ammo; not only does this drive up production costs by several orders of magnitude (because FN had to pay for the invention, building, and personnel training for the equipment which produces the ammo), it also means that an enemy of someone who relies heavily on the P90 only has to take one production facility out, and the guy with the P90 is screwed--he's got no place to buy more ammo, when he runs out.

on the other hand, you've got the 7.62 round, which is everywhere. because this ammunition is incredibly easy to get ahold of, weapons that fire the 7.62 round are also popular. and because weapons chambered in 7.62 are popular, ammunition producers keep pumping out more 7.62. it's a cycle that works very strongly in favor of the 7.62's survival well into the 2060s, and beyond.

the long and short of it is that it's very difficult to introduce a new round, and very difficult to get rid of an old one. therefore, it's highly likely that most of the rounds that are popular today will still be so in 2060, and very unlikely that there will be a large number of new rounds introduced by then. the roster will change a little, but it will still be basically recognizable as the list of rounds we use today.

This proves an interesting spin on the story:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2003Oct13.html

Engaged in the middle of a peace-keeping mission or pacification or whatever you want to call it, at least a 1/3 of the troops don't have body armor capable of stopping assault rifle fire.

Relatives are resorting to buying armor and sending it to troops in Iraq. This from a country with one of the largest portion of military spending.

Now, this armor covers the chest -- it doesn't cover the arteries in the thighs and the helmet doesn't cover the face. Not to mention the rest of the extremities.

This body armor, as wonderful as it is, won't stop repeated hits from AR rounds.

And surviving a direct hit from an AR round doesn't translate into standing up and being immediately "combat capable". If you're still alive, count yourself lucky that you can still breathe.

-Siege

Yeah... I blame them for all the firearms links I have in my favourites folder...

What's wrong with me, huh?

I said this earlier but apperently no one listened. US soldiers do not wear bullet proof vests. At best they wear Flak Jackets that can stop a richochet. But they do not wear bullet proof vests.

Let me say this again,

US soldiers do not wear bullet proof vests.

Having said that, the guy in the article was lucky. The bullet hit a smoke grenade, then a spare magazine, then his vest, a richochet. This is exactly what the Flak Jacket was designed to protect from.

When I was in basic training they lined us all up and gave us a demonstration. A hardened Kevlar helmet was put on a pedestal. A DS walked up with a 9mm at point blank and put a hole right through it.

Why? To get us to keep our fraggin heads down, and to make us realize there is no such thing (outside of a tank) as bulletproof.

The shape and material ammo is made of may change, but as long as there are people stil using AK's and M-16's and everything else that uses 7.62 and 5.56 people will still be manufacturing the ammo.

On a side not the M-60 LMG uses a 7.62mm NATO round. There is no body armor on earth that would protect you from this gun at anything under 700 meters. I have a feeling this gun will be around as long as the Ma-Duce.

That's interesting -- since there's a kevlar helmet that has 3 7.62 rounds sticking in it, sitting in the National Museum in Washington.

According to the article I posted, someone somewhere is wearing bullet-resistant armor.

Although I gotta admit, that's a hell of an object lesson in ducking for cover.

-Siege

What I meant was joe soldier is not supplied with body armor. SF, Rangers and seals do wear armor under some circumstances. But Joe truck driver, radio operator whatever does not. Like I said, US Soldiers do not wear bullet proof vests on there daily job. Maybe I wasn't clear on that point. The 4 years I was in I only ever wore armor while guarding the main gate at Lewis. I didn't in Panama, I didn't in Korea, and these were places where people were shooting at you. It's not like they give you a choice, it's just not part of your BI&E.

The few deaths in Iraq has more to do with training than anything else.

I am not sure how heavy NIJ lvl 3 armor is but I imagine it would have to be fairly heavy, I have seen M60 rip through buildings like butter. And they have an effective range of 1100 meters. And my understanding of it is that you would have to have some kind of ceramic insert in order to stop the round. Meaning theres a place on your chest little bigger than a dinner plate that you can't be shot. Whoopee.

nij 3 is not ceramic, nij 4 has plates (metal, ceramic, or soft). The fact is that all troops who see action in iraq have the interceptor vests, it is recent to equip soldiers like this so i can see how you never were so equipped.

i mean the soldiers fighting or patrolling, not the supply guys and such.

that building-m60 example should serve to show you how good todays armor really is.

as far as their training saving their lives, you may have a bloated view of your training thatt the gov. gave you as part of your 'mental conditioning', or their propaganda that they feed us as u.s. citizens about the effectiveness of our arms etc. Also consider that 1/2 of soldiers polled by stars and stripes (all in iraq) found that their training had not been sufficient to prepare them for iraq, and considering that they die day after day from the same attacks, without adapting sufficiently i think their training has been insufficiant, especially the officer training.

body armor is what has kept the us casulties so low after the victory in iraq.

soldiers DO NOT wear flak vest, they wear damn near SOTA kevlar with shields. level 3 armor in around 10 pounds, like i said no shields on it. The soldier was shot multiple times, one hit the grenade, another hit the mags, as i understand it.

my case in point is the la bank robbery, where the robbers were shot literally hundreds of times with guns that raygun(ithink, maybe just the 2nd post here was misquoting him) classifies as heavy pistols, they were not hurt. They were only wearing vests w/plates by sr standards, and in srt a heavy pistol can easily kill a man in a vest w/plates, thus the predator and other heavy pistols must not be .40 .45 or .44mag or any other round in use today (except maybe the 5.7, though i think it doesnt do so much damage).

quote from one of the links above

Well what if the pistol ammo is still .45 and 9mm, and .40S&W. But it is made of some undiscovered alloy and has penaids built in? What if all rounds are depleted uranium or some other wonder metal. They would still cast it in .45 because of the tens of millions of .45 pistols still out there. I am sure there are newer and other kinds (I like the comment about p90s on Stargate, honestly I preferred the MP-5's and was sad to see them go) of pistol ammo like the 4.7. But right now on todays market I can think of half a dozen different caliber of weapons. Why would 60 years form now there only be one or two? What happened to free market?

raygun, this thread is about what the canon caliber of rounds in sr is, someone posted with the calibers from your site, it was not a good answer, they are not canon, as you know/said.

The problem i have is that that guy is going to go away thinking they are canon or close to it when in my mind (and i feel i have made my argument) they are near the farthest thing from it. And i am mainly speaking about the pistols.

i am sorry that this argument has gone so far beyond that, what i want to know is whether anyone can tell me in light of all of the stuff this thread has brought up:

are shadowrun heavy pistols .40 and .45 caliber, or some new more advanced cal.?

i think the answer is obvious, and i think that it proves my point, that your website does not provide a good example of what guns in shadowrun are like, i believe it is clearly evident that guns (along with bio/cyberware, vehicles, armor, etc.) will have to be much more powerful in shadowrun against armor than todays arms are, how else to kill a squad of spec ops in military grade armor?

@shadow, they dont provide stats for the colt 1911 in shadowrun but for the ares predator, this is because there are new guns, why should they be made in the same caliber is they are going to be using new bullets anyways ? (like you conceded) the actual guns will be old, too old to use, and it would make more sense to design new guns for new rounds then new rounds for old gun designs, it allows you to actually attempt to make them better in every way (thus the 5.7 and not a better ap 9mm)

The official answer form Fanpro to your question is....

Heavy pistols are "heavy pistol caliber"
Light Pistols are "Light pistol caliber"
assault riffles are "AR Caliber"

That's why Raygun has a site. The weapons in SR are over simplified to keep it easy for people who's name doesn't have gun in it

PS

I thought this was an awesome thread and enjoyed participating in it. Both Rayguns and Slammo-s opinions were well backed up with facts, experience and ideas. I had fun.

cheers shadow, and you are right, i play with hp caliber etc., and i love houserules and think ray guns site provides great rules for people who like realism (as i am want to do). I think raygun and the rest of you convinced me that rifle rounds like 5.56 will still be used, and i think i argued against it too long.

thank you for your complement, and i must say that i enjoyed it too (i always enjoy a good argument ) and i think raygun proved himself more than knowledgable (as did others) sorry if i sounded stubborn, but i think i lost my main point right up until my last post where i hope i got back on track.

i am just thankful that in shadowrun i can tell my players that all the governments and corps, through a strange act of solidarity came up with standard calibers for all guns, and yes in my game they are AR caliber etc., just easier that way.

farewell until next time

Well, from the Time link posted the Soldier was only hit by one bullet. Perhaps the Iraqui only fire a single shot, perhaps the machinegun jammed after the first shot, maybe the other rounds in the burst missed.

That bullet was not stopped solely by the Vest. It also passed through a smoke grenade and at least one (probably more as it said magazines) M-16 Magazine that were in front of the vest. Both of those will serve to disipate the impact energy. Without them the round may have penetrated the vest anyway. Also the Vest doesn't cover the face, arms, legs etc, any of which could also prove fatal if arteries get hit etc.

Yes, he got hit by a round from a machine gun and was unharmed. But I bet you wouldn't get him to volunteer to stand there while you fired a burst or two at him to prove the effectiveness of his vest.

Actually I should have explained why I needed the info.

My new players are from dumpshock and I'm sure some of them will want some Raygun weapons. As he uses real life ammo, I was thinking about having all guns that are canon to use a certain type of round and if they wanted a gun that used something else they would have to buy special ammo for it.

For example if they wanted any heavy pistol out of the main book or Cannon Companion they would only have to buy standard heavy pistol rounds, which I would decide what caliber or type that would be. But, if they wanted an FN Five-seven which might use a different caliber then they would have to spend more money.

Make sense? Thanks for the great replies. TheOneRonin gave me all I needed with the linkage and his insight, now I have to decide what I will have the standard be.

It's difficult to train soldiers on how to occupy a country and fight a guerilla war against an enemy that strikes from shadows and plants bombs or ambushes guards and fades back to shadow.

More to the point, the training has been how to fight an active or "hot" war, not the current guerilla actions. That kind of training is more intensive, expensive and difficult to spread throughout the rank-and-file.

And really spiffy kevlar won't keep you alive if the car you're riding it gets hit by anti-vehicle weapons or rolls over a bomb hidden in the road.

Ok, I'm done venting.

-Siege

my mental conditioning? you get more mental conditioning from watching Black Hawk Down than you do from basic. as for US training not being enough--three weeks, 129 KIA, we won. by contrast, the two guys in North Hollywood are both dead. body armor is nice, but training is more important.