 My Ammunition house rules |
  |
 Aug 3 2006, 10:34 PM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087  |
I'm not a fan of Ex Ex, Flechette and Gel round as written. I'll try these houserules in my campaign (PC creation today! Yeah!)
So.. Ex Ex rounds : The uber ammunition. Better than APDS at destroying vehicle, better than Flechette at killing people. Woot. Is that a problem? Not if the price tag is uber too. Bump up to 200 nuyen. And availability 14 just so you don't get them at creation. If it costs 600 :nuyen: to fill up your SMG, you're gonna think very carefully about what you intend to shoot with it! Flechette : If the attack cause Stun damage, cut the DV in half. Basically, if the flechettes don't penetrate, they can't do much damage, can they? If the DV is higher than the Impact armor +2, Flechettes are much more dangerous than normal round, but it's okay, it's 5x more expensive. It's also a good reason to try for call shot if you wield a Slivergun and run into an Armor Jacket equiped opponent. Gel Round : Like Flechette round. The idea being that these rounds probably just bounce harmlessly off the harder armors (high impact). Opinions? |
 |
 
|
|
Aug 3 2006, 10:43 PM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Attempting to balance with price and even a bit of a bump in Avail is a poor substitute for giving each ammo type an actual use. Especially with ammo, where the cost of ammo is typically a very small portion of a runner's operating costs.
Salvaging opponents can also be an issue, so using cost and Avail as the barrier tends to lead to GMs to jerk around players with magically emptying magazines and dissapearing corpses. :( |
|
|
|
|
Aug 3 2006, 10:50 PM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
If your runners have time to sift through pockets for loose change everytime they kill someone you need to consider your targets response times. Especially target who has the wherewithal to equip their guards with Ex Ex should have your runners running from every fight, even if they kill all the opponents present. It's not about magically emptying clips, it's a matter if your runners are so unprofessional to stop and loot corpses every chance they get they won't last long as runers. This is not a MMORPG.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 3 2006, 10:57 PM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Grabbing a dropped weapon isn't the same as a patdown. Likewise extra magazines need to be readily accessable for use, so they are going to be fairly obvious.
Sometimes circumstances are going to impinge, depending on the senario. But you are likely getting into GM magic if it is happening that consistantly. EDIT The only times I've ever run through an entire full AR magazine it was because I had picked up a couple of weapons off guards that we snuffed and had to walk over their bodies anyway. I had lots, and didn't want to risk reselling the weapons to trace it back to us. It was a very messy job, and we were out of town with poor local contacts so extra risky, even just keeping them was risky because we might have ended up flying commercial back home. So I was doing a lot of suppression fire, just to be safe yah know. Going through clips like candy. I even let off a "warning shot" burst into a closed door that we didn't plan on opening. To let any remaining guards and any other would-be heros on the other side know the door was being watched so I wouldn't have to kill anyone coming out. The GM ruled buddy openned the door just as I was firing and got a chest full of lead. :lick: |
|
|
|
|
Aug 3 2006, 11:07 PM
Post
#5
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
Picking up a used weapon is a significant imposition when it comes time to move, you're gonna sling how many AK-97's over that shoulder?
And the times when circumstances are likely to impinge on that is when corp sec has special costly ammo. Those multitude of cases where there is time to retrieve ammo/weapons from opponents should be mostly regular ammo. Simply put if you the GM want Ex Ex to be rare in your game, you simply make it rare. Standard fixer may not be able to produce quantities of it, you can make your runners take a highly connected contact specifically geared towards milspec gear in order to have ready access to Ex Ex. It's all up to the GM, and it's easy enough to prevent things like Ex Ex from overrunning your game, if you choose to do it. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 3 2006, 11:12 PM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Then Avail isn't handling anything, unless you crank that way up to some stupid level. You likely aren't even usig it. Once again more GM magic.
My character happened to walk into that job without a weapon. Well nothing more than a microflare gun. But even if he had a fullsized weapon already a Simple Action pop and drop gets you just the magazine pronto, plus the spare magazine is there. We had other people doing other things anyway. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 3 2006, 11:13 PM
Post
#7
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Why would my guards run around with pockets full of Ex Ex?
Especially if I bump the price? Don't the corps want to turn up a profit? Issueing each guards clip worth +600 :nuyen: instead of +60 :nuyen: doesn't seem very profitable. It's hardly gonna make corps X10 more secure. Ex Ex is for special forces, the guys who get all the cool toys. And if you have the time to lift some ammo from Special Forces commando, good for you. You deserve the Ex Ex. Seriously, no sarcasm. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 3 2006, 11:19 PM
Post
#8
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
That math is gonzo though. Two clips of Ex-Ex at that new and improved price is probably only around the cost of the weapon, and small potatoes compared to the armor they are wearing. These were people in security armor, not some guy pulling minimum wage in polyester pants and packing a service revolver. Arming them to fight against like force seems more than reasonable. It certainly is going to up the effectiveness immensely against armored opponents. P.S. The ammo wasn't Ex-Ex. I don't believe we use that at all, mostly due to the canon numbers being wacked. I think it was armor piercing. But the same basic principle applies. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 3 2006, 11:44 PM
Post
#9
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
I hardly think you have to label it GM Magic. I don't recall exactly but the aqusition rules do not have any paramiter for quantity other than total price. If you order over that last price ammount then 1 crate is the same as a container ship full. It's up to the GM to decide what can be aquired by a contact, "A box of 100 rounds? Okay, you want one box for every member of your team? Woah, chummer, let me sell you the number of this arms dealer I know. Oh, that's all you can afford to pay? Sorry, I think I'll keep that number to myself after all..."
I think the "Fixer" is more of the problem than the rules for ExEx, everyone seems to think that he can get anything. He may be a jack of all trades, but is master of none. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 4 2006, 12:04 AM
Post
#10
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Pretty much every special forces in the world use ammunitions that is different from the standard ammo issued to the rest of the army. Heavier grain, a fancy heavy metal jacket or whatever they feel work better for them. Why doesn't every grunt use this? It's not mass produced and it's gotta be more expensive. It seems logical to me that only Special Forces would routinely use Ex Ex in SR since it seems to be designed as the top ammo. And if I make it x4 more expensive than regular Ex and x10 more costly than regular ammo, it's also economical. What, not enough? I can always boost it to 300! It gives an additional bit of omph when PCs encounter Red Samurais as opposed to just a FRT or normal guards. The players can really feel the escalation! It's not just the gear, the cyber or the skill, it's also the ammo! Every aspect of their combat worthiness ramps up a little. Which means the overall effect is huge. --- This ain't just about Ex Ex. Any comments about Flechette? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 4 2006, 12:18 AM
Post
#11
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I just flat-out removed EX-EX from the game, leaving the two main choices of extra bang-bang to be APDS (which I dropped to Avail 12) and basic Explosive. Makes life a lot easier.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 4 2006, 12:27 AM
Post
#12
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 565 Joined: 7-January 04 Member No.: 5,965 |
I would think that the problem with EXEX is its F legality, and that it can probably be detected by chemical sensors.
In the age of shadowrun, chemical sensors are not that hard to come by. cyberware can implant one in your nose, or you can buy a microsensor at 500*rating. It may vary on how obvious the 'smell' is, but i can see some manufacturers including a chemical tag which would make the ammop type very obvious. How it would be tagged may in fact be determined by national law (dosent apply to corp property, so they can make the gaurds stuff less obvious). Other than that... the stuff is basicly dangerous to use. EX is not ammo you want to cook off, and with all the mages and elementals using fire, that can be a real hazard. There is no real reason to limit the ammo more than it is already. adding more rules can simply serve to confuse some of your players- Do make certain everyone is aware of your changes before character creation if at all posible. If you wait until combat to tell em, the will be quite mad. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 4 2006, 12:29 AM
Post
#13
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
Actually, I'll comment about gel, it shouldn't get the half power treatment. It's a stun damage bullet and designed to bounce off people, so it doesn't make sense that armor would half it's damage if it doesn't bypass the armor value.
If any thing should be adjusted it should be stick 'n shock |
|
|
|
|
Aug 4 2006, 01:04 AM
Post
#14
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
My rules:
Gel +1DV S / +ImpactAP Flechette +2DV / +ImpactAP Explosive +1DV / +1AP ExExplosive +2DV / +2AP APDS - / -4AP StickNShock 4S(e) / HalfImpact AND If the modified damage value does not exceed the modified armour rating, the defender can add his full unmodified impact rating to the damage resistance |
|
|
|
|
Aug 4 2006, 03:34 AM
Post
#15
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
My Rules
----------------------------------------------------------------- Gel Rounds -2 DV +2 AP stun resisted by impact In SR3 gel round power was less that of normal ammunition. What happened? Part of me thinks this was printed wrong and now they don't want to admit to their mistake. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Flechette Rounds +2 DV +2 AP Resisted by Ballistic OR 2xImpact or Vehicle Armor Doubling the power of the impact armor was how it was done in SR3. I think it works best for SR4 as well. This pretty makes it useless against vehicles which is the way it should be. ------------------------------------------------------------------ As for EX-Explosive Rounds, I simply increased them to 16F availability and raised the price to 250 :nuyen: The players want them, but they can't find them. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 4 2006, 03:59 AM
Post
#16
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
Double post
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 4 2006, 04:57 AM
Post
#17
|
|||
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
Make sense to me. It doesn't penetrate armor well, and is designed to have a larger impact silhouette. Seems to be the defining characteristic of impact weapons versus ballistic ones. Flechette, on the other hand, makes no sense to me as written. It's supposed to be more harmful to those with no armor, but less dangerous to those wearing it. It's also a bunch of little pieces/needles/flechettes, which seem more ballistic than even a lead bullet, really. My rules would look something like this: Ex and Ex-Ex: remove the AP adjustment. If this wasn't powerful enough, change the DV adjustment to +2 and +3 respectively. Flechette: defended by ballistic, keep the +2 DV, change the AP to +4. The rest: no change Just my opinion. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 4 2006, 08:17 AM
Post
#18
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 31-July 06 From: Denmark Member No.: 8,995 |
I'm probably going to go with explosive rounds facing double AR when shooting through barriers, like in SR3. Opponents hide a lot, especially if outgunned - they'll hunker down and delay their action, popping up when they hear you moving out of cover.
I like your Flechette rules Charon, it gives exactly the effect the rounds should have, if they penetrate armor they're devasting but otherwise they're crap. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 4 2006, 03:26 PM
Post
#19
|
|||||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Actually no, true flechette ammunition actually gives poor damage. They cause virtually no cavitation. It is the main reason, besides mass production costs, that they aren't widely used. What they do do is increase the chance to hit by covering a wider area, but keep what effectiveness they have out at least double the distance of buckshot. Currently our group is testing out a GM's suggestion of APDS 1/2ing armor but -1 DV. It has mostly worked in play, but I suspect only because we haven't been shooting at anything heavily armored. Besides spirits, which have that insane armor rating that makes higher force spirits normally nigh untouchable otherwise (that rule actually makes it feasible to use a carbine on a spirit). I suspect in the long run a simple unlimited 1/2ing of armor rating isn't really going to work out, just as everything else that works on halving/doubling runs ends up with serious wierdness. However I do very much like the -1DV that represents the lack of deformation of an AP slug. Otherwise, these numbers are designed to provide uses for each even without the GM having to fidgit and screw around with Avail, prices, legality, etc. They can of course be applied for a sense of verisimilitude, but are relatively inconsequential for balance with small exceptions such as the dirt cheap Hollowpoint (same price as 'regular' ammo) and Ex (use approximately Ex-Ex cost and Avail) and between the Steel and Tungsten ammuntion (DU AP has some pretty obvious drawbacks that has little to do with actual cost). The difference in performance between those two sets, especially Steel and Tungsten, however are quite small bordering on flavour. Balance in this case meaning giving each ammunition type a purpose for being there. The uses of these types fit roughly into the same uses you'll find with their reallife counterparts. --------------------------------- Buckshot (Shotguns) 0DV (-1DV per extra range increment)/ +2AP, +1 die per range increment, effectively giving a +1 die and then negating range penalties(versus higher of Impact or Balistic)
Gel 0/+2AP (versus higher of Impact or Balistic) Flechette (only available for weapons specifically named in RAW and weapons with a 10mm or larger bore; basically limited to Raecor Sting, Ares Sliver, shotguns, and maybe the PJSS) -1DV/0, +1 die (versus Balistic), range lengths are double shotgun ranges "Bal" (Ballistic) - The standard FMJ, AKA regular ammunition. Hollowpoint +1DV/+3AP Explosive +1DV/+1AP (uses a bimetal tech so damages like hollowpoint without as much of a compromise of AP, does not actually employ an 'explosive' material) Armour Piercing, Steel -1DV/-3AP Armour Piercing, Tungsten -1DV/-4AP Armour Piercing, DU -1/-5AP (+1DV if Hardened Armour is successfully penetrated), may cause secondary burning or toxic effects as per depleted uranium discussion, very detectable and because of limited access to the source material consistant use tends to make it a signature weapon NOTE: This ammunition is really for slightly over the top and up campaigns. The concept has not been proven to work AFAIK in small arms ammunition, so feel free to remove it from the list if you feel smallarms DU does not fit the tone of your campaign. Fragmenting Handgrenades 12DV/+2AP Fragmenting Missles, Rockets 16DV/+3AP Stick'n'Shock - Currently undetermined. I'd like this to be in, because there is already a self-contained taser 12 gauge shotgun round prototype in existance. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Aug 4 2006, 04:00 PM
Post
#20
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 31-July 06 From: Denmark Member No.: 8,995 |
Yeah, current flechettes. I always imagined SR flechettes to fly packed together and they only split apart from the force of impact, and that they'd have very sharp edges (perhaps more like shards than darts) so they would spin and cut through the target. I don't even think that's unrealistic that such a round would be very damaging, cutting through a lot of blood vessels. Anyway, realistic or not, Charon's systems achieves the intended game mechanic of damaging lightly armored targets. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Aug 4 2006, 04:08 PM
Post
#21
|
|||||||||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Er, that is the definition of flechette. Lots of little arrows all heading in the same direction. There are artilery rounds that do this too, although they take longer to separate because they are large enough and their flight path is long enough to have those kinds of controls in them. If you used a smartlink with a range finder you might be able to so something like that with having them spread out right before. But the crux of the matter is that you either have good penetration or good cavitation. Because one directly the energy straight ahead and the other directs the energy sideways.
That's more a fragmenting/hollowpoint. Such an item would tend to penetrate armor poorly. Flechette actually penetrates reasonably well. What you are describing is roughly the bimetal Ex in my list. There are some decent arguments that "Explosive" rounds as described in the BBB aren't actually exploding rounds at all but instead fracture dramatically. |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
Aug 4 2006, 04:59 PM
Post
#22
|
|||||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Delays for bulk orders are actually built into the rules. The larger the price the longer it takes to buy it. It actually affects the time to buy fairly dramatically at times. For example breaking the 1000 :nuyen: barrier doubles the time, breaking the 10,000 :nuyen: barrier more that triples it again. EDIT This also means that if you use the Street Costs modifier table on page 303 to increase the cost for Forbidden items it can increase the time to obtain the item.
Just a moderately decent Face by themselves can track down Avail 14 ammo in 3 or 4 days. A larger order in a week or so, the order you describe about a week to a month depending on the size of the group. No 'fixer' required. What you are describing is micromanaging the ammo supply. What I'm suggesting is rules/specs for ammo that lift a lot of that burden off the GM. Whether you use Avail by RAW or not. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Aug 4 2006, 05:04 PM
Post
#23
|
|||||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
If they have dropped the coin for the armor, and they are located in a posting guarding something that is quite valuable, and they aren't likely to fire many rounds? All these things describe the situations that runners come into, at least in many campaigns, fairly often. You could call them "special forces", but the gist of it is they are guards in a highly sensitive area. 5x cost for the ammo where it is going to count is dick all in a big operation. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Aug 4 2006, 05:07 PM
Post
#24
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
If you want to keep something out of the hands of PCs you have to step outside the realm of avilability indexes. With the new rules almost anyone with a decent skill can find almost anything as long as they have enough time, especiallyif they are allowed to spend edge.
If you let your players know that the ammo will be more expensive and harder to find that should be enough. Don't tell them exactly what the new formula is, or even if there is one. I would definitely figure in legality when determining if something is available. Availaibility 12 but perfectly legal might be found in a catalog, but availability 8 and restricted to military only would need some contacts to get. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 4 2006, 05:29 PM
Post
#25
|
|
|
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I may be getting old editions confused (AGAIN!) but I thought availability really only applied to buying something illegally, whether the item would normally be legal or not. If it is legal, and you're buying it legally with a legal SIN (and the paper trail, serial #s, etc, that go along with that) then you just order it and they ship it to you immediately, or you pick it up from the store.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 29th April 2024 - 09:39 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.