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Charon
I'm not a fan of Ex Ex, Flechette and Gel round as written. I'll try these houserules in my campaign (PC creation today! Yeah!)

So..

Ex Ex rounds : The uber ammunition. Better than APDS at destroying vehicle, better than Flechette at killing people. Woot. Is that a problem? Not if the price tag is uber too. Bump up to 200 nuyen. And availability 14 just so you don't get them at creation. If it costs 600 nuyen.gif to fill up your SMG, you're gonna think very carefully about what you intend to shoot with it!

Flechette : If the attack cause Stun damage, cut the DV in half. Basically, if the flechettes don't penetrate, they can't do much damage, can they? If the DV is higher than the Impact armor +2, Flechettes are much more dangerous than normal round, but it's okay, it's 5x more expensive. It's also a good reason to try for call shot if you wield a Slivergun and run into an Armor Jacket equiped opponent.

Gel Round : Like Flechette round. The idea being that these rounds probably just bounce harmlessly off the harder armors (high impact).

Opinions?
Brahm
Attempting to balance with price and even a bit of a bump in Avail is a poor substitute for giving each ammo type an actual use. Especially with ammo, where the cost of ammo is typically a very small portion of a runner's operating costs.

Salvaging opponents can also be an issue, so using cost and Avail as the barrier tends to lead to GMs to jerk around players with magically emptying magazines and dissapearing corpses. frown.gif
Demerzel
If your runners have time to sift through pockets for loose change everytime they kill someone you need to consider your targets response times. Especially target who has the wherewithal to equip their guards with Ex Ex should have your runners running from every fight, even if they kill all the opponents present. It's not about magically emptying clips, it's a matter if your runners are so unprofessional to stop and loot corpses every chance they get they won't last long as runers. This is not a MMORPG.
Brahm
Grabbing a dropped weapon isn't the same as a patdown. Likewise extra magazines need to be readily accessable for use, so they are going to be fairly obvious.

Sometimes circumstances are going to impinge, depending on the senario. But you are likely getting into GM magic if it is happening that consistantly.

EDIT

The only times I've ever run through an entire full AR magazine it was because I had picked up a couple of weapons off guards that we snuffed and had to walk over their bodies anyway. I had lots, and didn't want to risk reselling the weapons to trace it back to us. It was a very messy job, and we were out of town with poor local contacts so extra risky, even just keeping them was risky because we might have ended up flying commercial back home.

So I was doing a lot of suppression fire, just to be safe yah know. Going through clips like candy. I even let off a "warning shot" burst into a closed door that we didn't plan on opening. To let any remaining guards and any other would-be heros on the other side know the door was being watched so I wouldn't have to kill anyone coming out. The GM ruled buddy openned the door just as I was firing and got a chest full of lead. lick.gif
Demerzel
Picking up a used weapon is a significant imposition when it comes time to move, you're gonna sling how many AK-97's over that shoulder?

And the times when circumstances are likely to impinge on that is when corp sec has special costly ammo. Those multitude of cases where there is time to retrieve ammo/weapons from opponents should be mostly regular ammo.

Simply put if you the GM want Ex Ex to be rare in your game, you simply make it rare.

Standard fixer may not be able to produce quantities of it, you can make your runners take a highly connected contact specifically geared towards milspec gear in order to have ready access to Ex Ex. It's all up to the GM, and it's easy enough to prevent things like Ex Ex from overrunning your game, if you choose to do it.

Brahm
Then Avail isn't handling anything, unless you crank that way up to some stupid level. You likely aren't even usig it. Once again more GM magic.

My character happened to walk into that job without a weapon. Well nothing more than a microflare gun. But even if he had a fullsized weapon already a Simple Action pop and drop gets you just the magazine pronto, plus the spare magazine is there. We had other people doing other things anyway.
Charon
Why would my guards run around with pockets full of Ex Ex?

Especially if I bump the price? Don't the corps want to turn up a profit?

Issueing each guards clip worth +600 nuyen.gif instead of +60 nuyen.gif doesn't seem very profitable. It's hardly gonna make corps X10 more secure.

Ex Ex is for special forces, the guys who get all the cool toys. And if you have the time to lift some ammo from Special Forces commando, good for you. You deserve the Ex Ex. Seriously, no sarcasm.
Brahm
QUOTE (Charon @ Aug 3 2006, 06:13 PM)
Issueing each guards clip worth +600 nuyen.gif instead of  +60 nuyen.gif  doesn't seem very profitable.  It's hardly gonna make corps X10 more secure.

That math is gonzo though. Two clips of Ex-Ex at that new and improved price is probably only around the cost of the weapon, and small potatoes compared to the armor they are wearing.

These were people in security armor, not some guy pulling minimum wage in polyester pants and packing a service revolver. Arming them to fight against like force seems more than reasonable. It certainly is going to up the effectiveness immensely against armored opponents.


P.S. The ammo wasn't Ex-Ex. I don't believe we use that at all, mostly due to the canon numbers being wacked. I think it was armor piercing. But the same basic principle applies.
Demerzel
I hardly think you have to label it GM Magic. I don't recall exactly but the aqusition rules do not have any paramiter for quantity other than total price. If you order over that last price ammount then 1 crate is the same as a container ship full. It's up to the GM to decide what can be aquired by a contact, "A box of 100 rounds? Okay, you want one box for every member of your team? Woah, chummer, let me sell you the number of this arms dealer I know. Oh, that's all you can afford to pay? Sorry, I think I'll keep that number to myself after all..."

I think the "Fixer" is more of the problem than the rules for ExEx, everyone seems to think that he can get anything. He may be a jack of all trades, but is master of none.
Charon
QUOTE (Brahm @ Aug 3 2006, 06:19 PM)
That math is gonzo though.  Two clips of Ex-Ex at that new and improved price is probably only around the cost of the weapon, and small potatoes compared to the armor they are wearing.

Pretty much every special forces in the world use ammunitions that is different from the standard ammo issued to the rest of the army.

Heavier grain, a fancy heavy metal jacket or whatever they feel work better for them.

Why doesn't every grunt use this? It's not mass produced and it's gotta be more expensive.

It seems logical to me that only Special Forces would routinely use Ex Ex in SR since it seems to be designed as the top ammo. And if I make it x4 more expensive than regular Ex and x10 more costly than regular ammo, it's also economical. What, not enough? I can always boost it to 300!

It gives an additional bit of omph when PCs encounter Red Samurais as opposed to just a FRT or normal guards. The players can really feel the escalation! It's not just the gear, the cyber or the skill, it's also the ammo! Every aspect of their combat worthiness ramps up a little. Which means the overall effect is huge.

---

This ain't just about Ex Ex. Any comments about Flechette?
Shrike30
I just flat-out removed EX-EX from the game, leaving the two main choices of extra bang-bang to be APDS (which I dropped to Avail 12) and basic Explosive. Makes life a lot easier.
Teulisch
I would think that the problem with EXEX is its F legality, and that it can probably be detected by chemical sensors.

In the age of shadowrun, chemical sensors are not that hard to come by. cyberware can implant one in your nose, or you can buy a microsensor at 500*rating. It may vary on how obvious the 'smell' is, but i can see some manufacturers including a chemical tag which would make the ammop type very obvious. How it would be tagged may in fact be determined by national law (dosent apply to corp property, so they can make the gaurds stuff less obvious).

Other than that... the stuff is basicly dangerous to use. EX is not ammo you want to cook off, and with all the mages and elementals using fire, that can be a real hazard.

There is no real reason to limit the ammo more than it is already. adding more rules can simply serve to confuse some of your players- Do make certain everyone is aware of your changes before character creation if at all posible. If you wait until combat to tell em, the will be quite mad.
Lagomorph
Actually, I'll comment about gel, it shouldn't get the half power treatment. It's a stun damage bullet and designed to bounce off people, so it doesn't make sense that armor would half it's damage if it doesn't bypass the armor value.

If any thing should be adjusted it should be stick 'n shock
Serbitar
My rules:

Gel +1DV S / +ImpactAP
Flechette +2DV / +ImpactAP
Explosive +1DV / +1AP
ExExplosive +2DV / +2AP
APDS - / -4AP
StickNShock 4S(e) / HalfImpact

AND

If the modified damage value does not exceed
the modified armour rating, the defender can
add his full unmodified impact rating to the
damage resistance
booklord
My Rules

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Gel Rounds -2 DV +2 AP stun resisted by impact

In SR3 gel round power was less that of normal ammunition. What happened? Part of me thinks this was printed wrong and now they don't want to admit to their mistake.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Flechette Rounds +2 DV +2 AP Resisted by Ballistic OR 2xImpact or Vehicle Armor

Doubling the power of the impact armor was how it was done in SR3. I think it works best for SR4 as well. This pretty makes it useless against vehicles which is the way it should be.
------------------------------------------------------------------

As for EX-Explosive Rounds, I simply increased them to 16F availability and raised the price to 250 nuyen.gif The players want them, but they can't find them.
booklord
Double post
Aaron
QUOTE (booklord @ Aug 3 2006, 10:34 PM)
Gel Rounds -2 DV +2 AP stun resisted by impact

In SR3 gel round power was less that of normal ammunition.  What happened?  Part of me thinks this was printed wrong and now they don't want to admit to their mistake.

Make sense to me. It doesn't penetrate armor well, and is designed to have a larger impact silhouette. Seems to be the defining characteristic of impact weapons versus ballistic ones.

Flechette, on the other hand, makes no sense to me as written. It's supposed to be more harmful to those with no armor, but less dangerous to those wearing it. It's also a bunch of little pieces/needles/flechettes, which seem more ballistic than even a lead bullet, really.

My rules would look something like this:

Ex and Ex-Ex: remove the AP adjustment. If this wasn't powerful enough, change the DV adjustment to +2 and +3 respectively.
Flechette: defended by ballistic, keep the +2 DV, change the AP to +4.
The rest: no change

Just my opinion.
Smokeskin
I'm probably going to go with explosive rounds facing double AR when shooting through barriers, like in SR3. Opponents hide a lot, especially if outgunned - they'll hunker down and delay their action, popping up when they hear you moving out of cover.

I like your Flechette rules Charon, it gives exactly the effect the rounds should have, if they penetrate armor they're devasting but otherwise they're crap.
Brahm
QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Aug 4 2006, 03:17 AM)
I like your Flechette rules Charon, it gives exactly the effect the rounds should have, if they penetrate armor they're devasting but otherwise they're crap.

Actually no, true flechette ammunition actually gives poor damage. They cause virtually no cavitation. It is the main reason, besides mass production costs, that they aren't widely used. What they do do is increase the chance to hit by covering a wider area, but keep what effectiveness they have out at least double the distance of buckshot.

Currently our group is testing out a GM's suggestion of APDS 1/2ing armor but -1 DV. It has mostly worked in play, but I suspect only because we haven't been shooting at anything heavily armored. Besides spirits, which have that insane armor rating that makes higher force spirits normally nigh untouchable otherwise (that rule actually makes it feasible to use a carbine on a spirit). I suspect in the long run a simple unlimited 1/2ing of armor rating isn't really going to work out, just as everything else that works on halving/doubling runs ends up with serious wierdness.

However I do very much like the -1DV that represents the lack of deformation of an AP slug.

Otherwise, these numbers are designed to provide uses for each even without the GM having to fidgit and screw around with Avail, prices, legality, etc. They can of course be applied for a sense of verisimilitude, but are relatively inconsequential for balance with small exceptions such as the dirt cheap Hollowpoint (same price as 'regular' ammo) and Ex (use approximately Ex-Ex cost and Avail) and between the Steel and Tungsten ammuntion (DU AP has some pretty obvious drawbacks that has little to do with actual cost). The difference in performance between those two sets, especially Steel and Tungsten, however are quite small bordering on flavour. Balance in this case meaning giving each ammunition type a purpose for being there.

The uses of these types fit roughly into the same uses you'll find with their reallife counterparts.

---------------------------------

Buckshot (Shotguns) 0DV (-1DV per extra range increment)/ +2AP, +1 die per range increment, effectively giving a +1 die and then negating range penalties(versus higher of Impact or Balistic)
QUOTE (multiple target Buckshot rules)
Narrow (Full Choke) only 1 target at a time
Medium (Modified Choke) -1DV, 2 adjacent targets by spliting the dice pool
Wide (No Choke) -2DV, 3 adjacent targets by splitting the dice pool, middle target must have highest (or tied for highest) number of dice allocated

Gel 0/+2AP (versus higher of Impact or Balistic)

Flechette (only available for weapons specifically named in RAW and weapons with a 10mm or larger bore; basically limited to Raecor Sting, Ares Sliver, shotguns, and maybe the PJSS) -1DV/0, +1 die (versus Balistic), range lengths are double shotgun ranges

"Bal" (Ballistic) - The standard FMJ, AKA regular ammunition.

Hollowpoint +1DV/+3AP
Explosive +1DV/+1AP (uses a bimetal tech so damages like hollowpoint without as much of a compromise of AP, does not actually employ an 'explosive' material)

Armour Piercing, Steel -1DV/-3AP
Armour Piercing, Tungsten -1DV/-4AP
Armour Piercing, DU -1/-5AP (+1DV if Hardened Armour is successfully penetrated), may cause secondary burning or toxic effects as per depleted uranium discussion, very detectable and because of limited access to the source material consistant use tends to make it a signature weapon NOTE: This ammunition is really for slightly over the top and up campaigns. The concept has not been proven to work AFAIK in small arms ammunition, so feel free to remove it from the list if you feel smallarms DU does not fit the tone of your campaign.


Fragmenting Handgrenades 12DV/+2AP
Fragmenting Missles, Rockets 16DV/+3AP

Stick'n'Shock - Currently undetermined. I'd like this to be in, because there is already a self-contained taser 12 gauge shotgun round prototype in existance.
Smokeskin
QUOTE (Brahm)
QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Aug 4 2006, 03:17 AM)
I like your Flechette rules Charon, it gives exactly the effect the rounds should have, if they penetrate armor they're devasting but otherwise they're crap.

Actually no, true flechette ammunition actually gives poor damage. They cause virtually no cavitation.

Yeah, current flechettes. I always imagined SR flechettes to fly packed together and they only split apart from the force of impact, and that they'd have very sharp edges (perhaps more like shards than darts) so they would spin and cut through the target. I don't even think that's unrealistic that such a round would be very damaging, cutting through a lot of blood vessels.

Anyway, realistic or not, Charon's systems achieves the intended game mechanic of damaging lightly armored targets.
Brahm
QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Aug 4 2006, 11:00 AM)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Aug 4 2006, 05:26 PM)
QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Aug 4 2006, 03:17 AM)
I like your Flechette rules Charon, it gives exactly the effect the rounds should have, if they penetrate armor they're devasting but otherwise they're crap.

Actually no, true flechette ammunition actually gives poor damage. They cause virtually no cavitation.

Yeah, current flechettes.

Er, that is the definition of flechette. Lots of little arrows all heading in the same direction. There are artilery rounds that do this too, although they take longer to separate because they are large enough and their flight path is long enough to have those kinds of controls in them. If you used a smartlink with a range finder you might be able to so something like that with having them spread out right before. But the crux of the matter is that you either have good penetration or good cavitation. Because one directly the energy straight ahead and the other directs the energy sideways.


QUOTE
I always imagined SR flechettes to fly packed together and they only split apart from the force of impact, and that they'd have very sharp edges (perhaps more like shards than darts) so they would spin and cut through the target. I don't even think that's unrealistic that such a round would be very damaging, cutting  through a lot of blood vessels.


That's more a fragmenting/hollowpoint. Such an item would tend to penetrate armor poorly. Flechette actually penetrates reasonably well.

What you are describing is roughly the bimetal Ex in my list. There are some decent arguments that "Explosive" rounds as described in the BBB aren't actually exploding rounds at all but instead fracture dramatically.
Brahm
QUOTE (Demerzel @ Aug 3 2006, 06:44 PM)
I hardly think you have to label it GM Magic.  I don't recall exactly but the aqusition rules do not have any paramiter for quantity other than total price.  If you order over that last price ammount then 1 crate is the same as a container ship full.  It's up to the GM to decide what can be aquired by a contact,  "A box of 100 rounds?  Okay, you want one box for every member of your team?  Woah, chummer, let me sell you the number of this arms dealer I know.  Oh, that's all you can afford to pay?  Sorry, I think I'll keep that number to myself after all..."

Delays for bulk orders are actually built into the rules. The larger the price the longer it takes to buy it. It actually affects the time to buy fairly dramatically at times. For example breaking the 1000 nuyen.gif barrier doubles the time, breaking the 10,000 nuyen.gif barrier more that triples it again.

EDIT This also means that if you use the Street Costs modifier table on page 303 to increase the cost for Forbidden items it can increase the time to obtain the item.
QUOTE
I think the "Fixer" is more of the problem than the rules for ExEx, everyone seems to think that he can get anything.   He may be a jack of all trades, but is master of none.

Just a moderately decent Face by themselves can track down Avail 14 ammo in 3 or 4 days. A larger order in a week or so, the order you describe about a week to a month depending on the size of the group. No 'fixer' required.

What you are describing is micromanaging the ammo supply. What I'm suggesting is rules/specs for ammo that lift a lot of that burden off the GM. Whether you use Avail by RAW or not.
Brahm
QUOTE (Charon @ Aug 3 2006, 07:04 PM)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Aug 3 2006, 06:19 PM)
That math is gonzo though.  Two clips of Ex-Ex at that new and improved price is probably only around the cost of the weapon, and small potatoes compared to the armor they are wearing.

Pretty much every special forces in the world use ammunitions that is different from the standard ammo issued to the rest of the army.

Heavier grain, a fancy heavy metal jacket or whatever they feel work better for them.

Why doesn't every grunt use this? It's not mass produced and it's gotta be more expensive.

It seems logical to me that only Special Forces would routinely use Ex Ex in SR since it seems to be designed as the top ammo. And if I make it x4 more expensive than regular Ex and x10 more costly than regular ammo, it's also economical. What, not enough? I can always boost it to 300!

If they have dropped the coin for the armor, and they are located in a posting guarding something that is quite valuable, and they aren't likely to fire many rounds?

All these things describe the situations that runners come into, at least in many campaigns, fairly often. You could call them "special forces", but the gist of it is they are guards in a highly sensitive area. 5x cost for the ammo where it is going to count is dick all in a big operation.
James McMurray
If you want to keep something out of the hands of PCs you have to step outside the realm of avilability indexes. With the new rules almost anyone with a decent skill can find almost anything as long as they have enough time, especiallyif they are allowed to spend edge.

If you let your players know that the ammo will be more expensive and harder to find that should be enough. Don't tell them exactly what the new formula is, or even if there is one.

I would definitely figure in legality when determining if something is available. Availaibility 12 but perfectly legal might be found in a catalog, but availability 8 and restricted to military only would need some contacts to get.
Moon-Hawk
I may be getting old editions confused (AGAIN!) but I thought availability really only applied to buying something illegally, whether the item would normally be legal or not. If it is legal, and you're buying it legally with a legal SIN (and the paper trail, serial #s, etc, that go along with that) then you just order it and they ship it to you immediately, or you pick it up from the store.
James McMurray
That's true, but as with all rules there may be times when it doesn't apply. Something legal but rare might need to be special ordered or even crafted, which would account for the time. And anything that can't be bought at a local store would have at least a day of shipping costs (less if you want it slower, more if you want nifty things like insurance).
Smokeskin
QUOTE (Brahm)
Er, that is the definition of flechette. Lots of little arrows all heading in the same direction.

QUOTE
Er, that is the definition of flechette. Lots of little arrows all heading in the same direction. There are artilery rounds that do this too, although they take longer to separate because they are large enough and their flight path is long enough to have those kinds of controls in them. If you used a smartlink with a range finder you might be able to so something like that with having them spread out right before..


i think the definition of a flechette is just a single dart. Flechette ammunition can be fire 1 or many darts. The experimental rifle flechette ammunition just fired 1 dart AFAIK.

But whatever the definition of flechette ammo, it doesn't seem unlikely at all that rounds where instead of a discarding sabot you have the flechettes encased all the way and the flechette first separate when they hit the target would still be called flechettes. There's nothing fancy about this, no need for a rangefinder or anything, the casing just breaks away from the force of impact, just like mercury-filled round doesn't require electronics to release the mercury.

Also here's a description of what seems to be a rather succesful attempt at razor-variation of flechettes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCIMTR - very wounding but too expensive.

QUOTE
But the crux of the matter is that you either have good penetration or good cavitation. Because one directly the energy straight ahead and the other directs the energy sideways


I disagree. Razor flechettes have both.

QUOTE
That's more a fragmenting/hollowpoint. Such an item would tend to penetrate armor poorly. Flechette actually penetrates reasonably well.


A fragmenting round is basicalle a piece of metal that deforms to the point of fragmenting by the force of the impact. There is a large difference between that and a pack of razor flechettes - they'll be much sharper than pieces of deformed metal. You will get both deep penetration and cavity (though technically cavity might not be such a good description for it, but the interesting point about cavity is mostly how many blood vessels it opens, and razor flechettes will certainly do a good job at that. And as the wikepedie link says, they have good armor penetration.
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (Charon)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Aug 3 2006, 06:19 PM)
That math is gonzo though.  Two clips of Ex-Ex at that new and improved price is probably only around the cost of the weapon, and small potatoes compared to the armor they are wearing.

Pretty much every special forces in the world use ammunitions that is different from the standard ammo issued to the rest of the army.

Heavier grain, a fancy heavy metal jacket or whatever they feel work better for them.


<shakes head> I think I need to channel Raygun or AE for this one...

QUOTE
Why doesn't every grunt use this?  It's not mass produced and it's gotta be more expensive.


Pretty much every type of ammunition that isn't handloaded is going to be mass produced. Mass production has nothing to do with why the rank-and-file soldier uses standard ball ammo.

QUOTE
It seems logical to me that only Special Forces would routinely use Ex Ex in SR since it seems to be designed as the top ammo.  And if I make it x4 more expensive than regular Ex and x10 more costly than regular ammo, it's also economical.  What, not enough?  I can always boost it to 300!


Right. So we are supposed to believe that it is actually profitable for a company to develop/produce/and market a type of ammunition who's sole consuming demographic is the Global Special Forces Community. That's just about as non-sensical as mega-corps manufacturing cybernetics who's sole demographic is the criminal elite. Oh wait...SR already does that. Retarded on both counts.


QUOTE
It gives an additional bit of omph when PCs encounter Red Samurais as opposed to just a FRT or normal guards.  The players can really feel the escalation!  It's not just the gear, the cyber or the skill, it's also the ammo!  Every aspect of their combat worthiness ramps up a little.  Which means the overall effect is huge.


You really do play "Shadowrun The Videogame", don't you?

Shrike30
QUOTE (TheOneRonin)
Right. So we are supposed to believe that it is actually profitable for a company to develop/produce/and market a type of ammunition who's sole consuming demographic is the Global Special Forces Community. That's just about as non-sensical as mega-corps manufacturing cybernetics who's sole demographic is the criminal elite. Oh wait...SR already does that. Retarded on both counts.

Depending on how small-scale you want to get, some of the blended metal ammunition being developed is specifically intended for SF and SWAT use. The chemistry is beyond my understanding, but the general principle is that the rounds react to the heat generated by their impact with various substances. Hitting something like kevlar doesn't dump much in the way of heat onto the round, so the rounds go through armor... hitting something like drywall or flesh causes the round to disintegrate, causing phenomenal damage to tissue and drastically reducing penetration of walls and other things that people might not want to be shooting through. I'm under the impression that they've got other variants on this ammunition, that share a selection of these properties.
James McMurray
QUOTE (TheOneRonin)
You really do play "Shadowrun The Videogame", don't you?

Yeah, because there shouldn't be a noticable difference between lowend and highend security! Oh... wait...
Brahm
QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Aug 4 2006, 03:17 PM)
QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Aug 4 2006, 12:48 PM)
Right.  So we are supposed to believe that it is actually profitable for a company to develop/produce/and market a type of ammunition who's sole consuming demographic is the Global Special Forces Community.  That's just about as non-sensical as mega-corps manufacturing cybernetics who's sole demographic is the criminal elite.  Oh wait...SR already does that.  Retarded on both counts.

Depending on how small-scale you want to get, some of the blended metal ammunition being developed is specifically intended for SF and SWAT use. The chemistry is beyond my understanding, but the general principle is that the rounds react to the heat generated by their impact with various substances. Hitting something like kevlar doesn't dump much in the way of heat onto the round, so the rounds go through armor... hitting something like drywall or flesh causes the round to disintegrate, causing phenomenal damage to tissue and drastically reducing penetration of walls and other things that people might not want to be shooting through. I'm under the impression that they've got other variants on this ammunition, that share a selection of these properties.

That's the bimetal type tech I assigned to "Explosive". Which was actually an offhand suggestion of mfb that I borrowed and incorporated. It's a little beyond us right now, but has at least has some potential for 60 years down the road.

In the end you can say it is intended for SF, or SWAT, or Hello Kitty Death Squads. But that's the kind of guards you are going to get in a number of situations that shadowrunners encounter.
QUOTE (Smokeskin)
<snip>Also here's a description of what seems to be a rather succesful attempt at razor-variation of flechettes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCIMTR - very wounding but too expensive.

That is the type I assumed would be in use in SR, as the darts are close to useless. However my understanding is that "very" is a bad qualifier, as it is more like "better than the steel darts". It is still cutting a relatively small holes, and generally isn't slicing anything close to the type of path you'd get from, say, a broadhead or mechanical arrow. The total length cut might be ok, but they do tend to spread out quite a bit....which is their benefit and bane.

If they didn't spread out in flight, but instead only on impact then you'd end up with the same deal. Either a cluster that sticks together with a relatively small cavitiy or poorer armor penetration.


P.S. There is already a "single dart" smallarms ammunition in SR. It is called APDS.
Charon
QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Aug 4 2006, 02:48 PM)
Right.  So we are supposed to believe that it is actually profitable for a company to develop/produce/and market a type of ammunition who's sole consuming demographic is the Global Special Forces Community.  That's just about as non-sensical as mega-corps manufacturing cybernetics who's sole demographic is the criminal elite.  Oh wait...SR already does that.  Retarded on both counts.


Well, yeah.

Ever hear of a niche market?

I do expect you to believe, for example, that Ferrari found it profitable in 2005 to sell only 5409 vehicles. Of course, they sold them for a small fortune each.

The Ex Ex is forbidden so right there you are cutting the potential market quite a bit anyway.

If you sell only to special force and elite unite around the world, but sell for 10 to 20 time the normal cost, yeah, you might find it profitable. Especially if a single firm is the sole provider of these kind of ammo which in these kind of limited market is common enough. It's called 'natural monopoly'.

At any rate, it doesn't skew the economics as they are understood by most people to warrant snide remarks about playing "Shadowrun - The Videogame".

The elite products are used by an elite minority. It's a common enough conceit and I don't see how it would ruin suspension of disbelief and it's good IMO for game balance.
Brahm
QUOTE (Charon)
The elite products are used by an elite minority.

And shadowrunners, real ones instead of just gang banger characters, tend to run into people that are of elite standing. Because they are often going after top end targets. And occationally shoot them or otherwise incapacitate these elite people. Elite guards, for example.

Not always, not everytime. But it happens.
knasser
QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Aug 4 2006, 02:48 PM)
That's just about as non-sensical as mega-corps manufacturing cybernetics who's sole demographic is the criminal elite.  Oh wait...SR already does that.  Retarded on both counts.


I disagree with your premise. If you're referring to a lot of the combat-orientated implant, such as Wired Reflexes, Smart Gun Links et al., then surely one of the major purchasers for this will be the military. A soldier is a sizeable investment in terms of time and money. I can see an employer forking out for the Wired Reflexes and the cybereyes etc. to massively expand his capability.

And from there I can easily see manufacturers branching out and selling it on to smaller but paying markets. I mean once you've developed the tech you might as well maximise profits, yes? And police and private security firms might be interested, Bear in mind that large purchasers will be getting all this tech much more cheaply for having special deals, going through legitimate channels etc.

And a lot of other tech has legitimate uses. I've yoinked some of these from another thread (sorry - can't remember who suggested these) but enhanced articulation - arthritis treatment. Bone density - osteoporosis and related. Cerebral Booster - stroke victims, dementia, head trauma et al.

We also don't know how much of this tech is just a natural consequence of other tech and general technical expertise. Perhaps it isn't actually very complex to turn a regular cyberlimb (Str 3, Bod 3) for a disable person, into a more powerful (Str 7, Bod 7) monster for the samurai - it could be as basic as buying higher rated muscle-plastics and coating the casing in nano-structures used in construction. Who knows? Not long ago, programming was the purview of an elite tribe of hairy people. Now we have the tech-level where everyone can slam together a program (albeit a messy unmaintanable mess of one ; ). Perhaps there are engineer types who just love to put on their blog how they managed to build a shotgun into someone's arm.

I might be exaggerating the case a little, but I don't feel by much. Once tech reaches a certain level and prevelance, a lot of odd people and small companies are going to start getting involved in what previously looked the height of sophistication.
Charon
QUOTE (Brahm @ Aug 4 2006, 05:19 PM)
QUOTE (Charon @ Aug 4 2006, 05:14 PM)
The elite products are used by an elite minority.

And shadowrunners, real ones instead of just gang banger characters, tend to run into people that are of elite standing. Because they are often going after top end targets. And occationally shoot them or otherwise incapacitate these elite people. Elite guards, for example.

Not always, not everytime. But it happens.

Well, yeah. And then they might have a chance, if time allow, to do some looting. Ain't life great?

I got no problem with that, like I said earlier.
Brahm
QUOTE (Charon @ Aug 5 2006, 02:11 AM)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Aug 4 2006, 05:19 PM)
QUOTE (Charon @ Aug 4 2006, 05:14 PM)
The elite products are used by an elite minority.

And shadowrunners, real ones instead of just gang banger characters, tend to run into people that are of elite standing. Because they are often going after top end targets. And occationally shoot them or otherwise incapacitate these elite people. Elite guards, for example.

Not always, not everytime. But it happens.

Well, yeah. And then they might have a chance, if time allow, to do some looting. Ain't life great?

I got no problem with that, like I said earlier.

But if that hadn't happened to have been an out of town job, or we would have decided to definately take the route back home that we ended up taking. A smuggling VTOL that we took mainly due to a new team member that we were worried about getting on a commercial flight. We could have stockpiled what would have amounted to several runs worth of high grade ammo. Just from the not so many guards because we don't normally go through heaps of ammo and because the guards had a reasonable amount on them for what their job was.

Basically any micromanaging of ammunition would have required some disappearing tricks and/or heavy GM intervention to yank it away. If you don't and you are relying heavily on overriding the Avail to say it isn't around as a reason not to just keep using it then you are pooched.

If there is something like that that you don't want your players to have just be honest up front and take it out of the game completely right from the beginning, or remove the underlying [logical] reasons for the desire. If you put something highly desirable in play and play it straight the players will figure out how to get it into their PC's hands. Or the game is likely to drag down as they fight against railroading that is keeping them from it.
Charon
QUOTE (Brahm @ Aug 5 2006, 02:55 AM)
If there is something like that that you don't want your players to have just be honest up front and take it out of the game completely right from the beginning, or remove the underlying [logical] reasons for the desire.  If you put something highly desirable in play and play it straight the players will figure out how to get it into their PC's hands.  Or the game is likely to drag down as they fight against railroading that is keeping them from it.

Then they have successfully acquired a stash of ammo.

What the hell is the problem?!

No matter how you cut it, if I increased the cost, availaibility of Ex Ex and then only equip elite force NPCs with them, Ex Ex become a lot more scarce. You either pay through the nose or have to take it away from very dangerous men.

If the PCs manage to score loads of assault rifle Ex Ex rounds from Red Samurai (Or from their unit's quartermaster) and successfully escape with it, they deserve it. How often must I say it? Got no problem with it.
Brahm
QUOTE (Charon)
No matter how you cut it, if I increased the cost, availaibility of Ex Ex and then only equip elite force NPCs with them, Ex Ex become a lot more scarce.

The problem is that unless your PCs are in an open war senario it takes increases in TN and price to astronomical proportions, way beyond your suggestion, for those alone to compensate for how out of wack the canon ammunition numbers are.

Basically it won't make it scarce in a meaningful way because the difference in the types of ammo are very high.

If you ignore the Avail number and micromanage the level then you generate hassle and are quickly thwarted. If you just say the fixer can't buy it and none of the NPCs are using it then you have effectively already taken it out of the game. If you try to manage it by saying the fixer can't find it ever and try to regulate it by putting it on NPCs you end up with the pathological craziness of GM magic or you end up with the PCs pretty much using it all the time (or never because you railroad it out, so you might as well just increase the Skill level of the NPCs instead).

Those are all just bandaids over the root issue. They are a poor substitute for correcting the problem with the ammunition specs.
James McMurray
1) Make it so fixers with any sort of regularity (if at all) can't get it and standard security doesn't have it. In my opinion this should hold true for a large amount of the gear with an F legality rating. No matter what its availiability number is, the dangers involved in working with it are increased, so ability and will to find it will decrease.

2) Make it so that only specific groups have it, usually the high-end forces of the military and megacorps.

How are you "quickly thwarted"? The only way to be thwarted is to allow yourself to be. If there is a run involving opposition with ex-ex you either a) set it up so they can get a good amount of the ammo or b) set it up so they can't. No problem.

QUOTE
the pathological craziness of GM magic or you end up with the PCs pretty much using it all the time (or never because you railroad it out, so you might as well just increase the Skill level of the NPCs instead).


Perhaps you end up with that, but your GM skills are not the same as everyone else's. If the group rarely faces forces with the ammo and they're on a time constraint or on the defensive when they do face them, the ability to harvest lots of ammo drops considerably. No "magic" is required, unless you're incapable of thinking of other ways to handle the situation.
knasser
QUOTE (James McMurray)

Perhaps you end up with that, but your GM skills are not the same as everyone else's.


Perhaps you get away with that, but your players are not the same as everyone elses.

Loathe though I am to ever agree with anyone, I think Brahm is right that it would be very hard to guarentee resourceful players aren't going to come away with the GM's special toys. The alarms are disabled, they've dropped the guard from behind, why not spare three seconds to pick up his clip?

Personally, I have two ways of making players mix their ammo types. I say Ex-Ex goes bang loudly. Silencer? My arse! Secondly, the availability rules say nothing about quantity. I suppose it depends on the pace of your campaign, but if the Fixer calls in and says that he's got a box of fifty Ex-Ex cartridges just fallen off the bottom of an inventory, and that happens every two months, then players will expend it a little more carefully.
James McMurray
QUOTE
The alarms are disabled, they've dropped the guard from behind, why not spare three seconds to pick up his clip?


Nobody is saying they shouldn't be allowed a clip or more. It's the massive amounts of Ex-ex causing it to efectively be the only ammunition (apart from gel rounds) that gets used that the original poster is trying to avoid. And that can easily be avoided with forethought and planning without having to resort to any sort of "magic."
  • one clip ex-ex for when they're needed (heavy armor or drones if stick-n-shock or hackers aren't available)
  • one clip normal for when facing normal opposition (i.e. not heavily armored)
  • 2 clips stick-n-shock or gel because management frowns on giant holes in walls and captured shadowrunners are much more valuable than dead ones. I personally prefer stick-n-shock for it's ability to take out drones.

The default loadout would be the nonlethal rounds, with changes occuring depending on what the situation is.
Brahm
QUOTE (knasser @ Aug 6 2006, 11:34 AM)
I suppose it depends on the pace of your campaign,

Exactly. You are stepping away from Avail, but you are talking about another thing for the GM to watch over and try micromanage. Bleh, I'd rather they spend the time on something a bit more intreging. Like interesting people for my PC to meet and kill. smile.gif

The sound factor of Ex and Ex-Ex I had once subscribed to myself. But....and this gets into some of the wierdness about how exactly Ex ammo could function anyway....I really doubt you'd get the same sort of sound as an unsupressed weapon. Suppressed weapons aren't totally silent. They are definately quieter, but have a distinct pop. For Ex ammo if they use a true explosive then they are going to be working hard against a volume limitation. So not only is it going to be a small amount, but they are going to need to use their explosive in the most effecient manner. Generally that isn't going to be popping out into open air. Far more effecient if it happened inside the target, a design that's going to need to be required for good AP anyway, further muffling the sound.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Brahm)
Suppressed weapons aren't totally silent. They are definately quieter, but have a distinct pop.

For example, in the range of 135-150dB 10 meters to the side of an unsuppressed rifle shot vs. 115-135dB when suppressed with high velocity ammunition. That's a very long way from silent, just less horribly loud and much less unmistakable.
knasser
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Nobody is saying they shouldn't be allowed a clip or more. It's the massive amounts of Ex-ex causing it to efectively be the only ammunition (apart from gel rounds) that gets used that the original poster is trying to avoid.


Oh well, then I guess there's no problem. It ought to possible for the GM to reasonably prevent huge quantities of Ex-Ex becoming available.

A more pertinent question might be what makes Ex-Ex vs. normal ammo different to the question of Light-Pistols vs. Heavy Pistols or SMG's vs. Assault Rifles?

I.e. Why aren't we having a thread about "How can I stop my players getting hold of Ares Predators? They don't want to use Colt America's at all!"
James McMurray
The difference is in grade. The Colt and Predator aren't much different from one another. There isn't an overwhelming power difference betwenn the two such that if one is availableeveryone will use it. Ex-ex is just so far ahead of all the other ammo types that it's silly.

There will always be things that are on the top of the heap unless you make it a point to have everything in a category work the same way. For instance, if every heavy pistol was DV 5 and AP -1 with nothing builtin. Of course, doing that makes for a fairly bland setup.

--

What do people think of removing the -2 AP from Ex-Ex? It still puts it ahead of APDS for damage dealing, but not for armor piercing, which seems to make the two closer to even. Ex-ex will still be a better idea in most cases, but if you're firing at someone with heavy armor and want to kill them quickly, or are firing at a vehicle, the APDS starts to look much nicer.
knasser
QUOTE (James McMurray)

What do people think of removing the -2 AP from Ex-Ex? It still puts it ahead of APDS for damage dealing, but not for armor piercing, which seems to make the two closer to even. Ex-ex will still be a better idea in most cases, but if you're firing at someone with heavy armor and want to kill them quickly, or are firing at a vehicle, the APDS starts to look much nicer.


I don't know much about real world ammunition, but from a game balance point of view, it sounds fine. It means that there's no half-way house between normal ammo (-0) and APDS (-4) which, given the prevalence of armour in my game, makes the choice pretty much a no-brainer. If your issue with Ex-Ex is that players just want to use it all the time without mixing in anything else, then I suspect you've just exacerbated the problem but with APDS in the prime role. There's even less of a price differential between it and normal ammo than there was with Ex-Ex.

The choice betweeen APDS and Ex-Ex becomes +2 DV or -4 AP, I guess. That's a little too close for it to matter, unless the Johnson hires you to go shooting naked people.

I don't think there's any game balance problem - the players still choose whether they want to spend money on something or not, but I don't see much advantage to changing the ammo rules. It just denies me (as GM) the chance to freak the players when afore-mentioned Red Samurai appear and the first Ex-Ex bullet rips into them.
James McMurray
+2 DV is worth more than -4 AP in terms of damage dealt, whether they're wearing armor or not (unless they get lucky with those 4 armor dice). The difference comes when you're trying to penetrate armor so you can hurt a vehicle/spirit, or so you don't deal stun damage to a creature. Unless you face a lot of spirits and vehicles I don't see APDS taking the prime role. Ex-ex would still be the leader of the pack when it comes to hurting people, but there's be a reason to go for something else every now and then.

I also don't really think it's necessary. Our group tend to use Ex-ex only when being quiet isn't a factor and there's a reason to kill people. Otherwise stick-n-shock and Gel are the prime ammo types. I was just tossing it out there as an option for those that like changing the way ammo works.
Brahm
QUOTE (knasser)
It just denies me (as GM) the chance to freak the players when afore-mentioned Red Samurai appear and the first Ex-Ex bullet rips into them.

When they roll a decent 3 hits on their perception check and fail to notice the attacker before the first shot comes at them they don't get nervous?

When you roll the attacker's dice, using both hands, and it sounds like thunder they don't get a bit of a concerned look on their face?

When that guy that just shot at them then proceeds to pull a wave of acid out of the mana they don't freak?
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