 System Failure, Bear with me, I just read it. |
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 Aug 4 2006, 03:33 PM
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#26
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Shooting Target  Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992  |
IIRC, Winternight did target DC with a nuke, but the device detonated in the city's outskirts rather than in the middle of it (it was moved by the authorities). |
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Aug 4 2006, 04:30 PM
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#27
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Which is where it would have been in the first place, since all that Matrix traffic would (like IRL where like half of all international traffic is routed through) go through northern Virginia (actually more west than south of Washington), and not Washington. Given the ~20km radius mentioned in SF, if placed properly it should have barely touched the city (if at all) if it had been moved as few as ~10km. The only safe place to have dragged it would have been south towards Quantico and the CAS border.
At least it's not like putting the SF bomb northeast of the Presidio. |
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Aug 4 2006, 09:30 PM
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#28
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
Actually if you go south of DC, follow route 1/395 into Arlington, just as you pass the Pentagon there is a road, I believe its Courthouse road, suprise suprise its got Arlingtons district courts there. If you follow that road down. Look to your left, youll see the Verizon building, across from that is the AT&T building. In the AT&T building is housed a fiber optic line, named the golden pathway. In the middle of the night is one piss poor quality rent a cop watching that building. That fiberline handles tons of government lines. To be honest its not just one line, its about 200 of them.
Why all that information? Because that should be one of the hardest buildings in the world to get into and a guy making less then $10 hour is all that keeps you out. And the building certainly isnt hardened, I would use my cell phone in there all the time. If I can use my cell phone standing next to the fiber node, then EMP can get it. And I know for absolute sure the equipment itself isnt hardened, I installed tons of it. And why would you shield all the fibersystems in the world? Thats a shit load of money wasted accept if you have a plot to contrive. The only good reason to shield electronics is if you expect that type of attack and what corp would or if you are tryign to stop people from listening in on calls and with fiber you cant just listen to magnetic bleed to hear signals. The whole nuke/EMP only tiny bits of the world effect plot is contrived. Makes no sense. Then the we only wanted to blind the world while we set off fault line nukes makes the whole thing even stupider. If the world is caught off gaurd by these EMP bombs, why wouldnt they be caught off gaurd by the big fault line nukes? Everyone sitting around the conspiracy table: Guy #1:what we are going to do is set off really fucking huge nukes on the fault lines in a very Max Zorin type plot. But not only are we going to flood Silicon Valley but destroy the world like we have been plotting for years. *goes through a step by step plan on how they are going to covertly do this task* Guy #2: Umm, what if we also set off a bunch of smaller ones a few days before to "Blind" the world, so they are caught off gaurd by the second wave of nuke attacks? Guy #1: That sounds good, let start acquiring a shit load more nuclear equipment and fissile material and hope the GM doesnt use the walls have ears rules on us. Guy #3 whispering to guy#4: Why are we using nukes, hasnt their been a lot of previous history of nuclear weapons not working, the Lone Eagle event I think its been called in the news? and all those nuclear plants self destructing. Yeah I see us pullling this off with no problems at all. Guy #5: I would like to also point out to this distinguished panel we have worked hard and and time to pay off is at hand. We have covered every possible problem. Guy #3: My cousin Ted works for the phone company, he said they have hardened all the equipment in the hundreads and hundreds of phone offices, routing stations, and switch boxes. How will this effect our EMP attacks? Guy #5: It wont effect us at all. Cell phone towers are worse for EMP attacks, just because those huge ass antennas are exspensive already, do you think they are going to shield all that cable? Eh, still seems contrived and silly. |
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Aug 4 2006, 10:04 PM
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#29
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 21-July 06 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 8,936 |
Shadowrun is our parallel universe of what could have been. They have real magic, elves, trolls, vampires, and friggin' dragons. Ok...so,
Why start nitpicking about "contrived and silly" now? You'd think that you would be used to odd things happening in the Shadowrun world. |
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Aug 4 2006, 10:26 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Wait, I still don't unterstand how these "the major Matrix junctions - transoceanic optical cable hubs and the like" were taken out. If such important hardware was hardened, as it should be, these hubs should have survived. It seems like, if anything needed to be protected from such an incident, it would be these hubs. So the reprocussions and direct damage were:
EMPs attacks:
Jorgamund Virus:
Were the major Matrix hubs taken out by the EMPs or the Virus? It seems as if the EMPs shouldn't be able to affect these hubs. |
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Aug 4 2006, 10:37 PM
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#31
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Don't think too hard about it. Your brain will try to escape your body. Just accept it happened and move on.
Now, if you'll excuse me, mine is trying to sneak out the back door... |
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Aug 4 2006, 10:45 PM
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#32
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
The EMPs took out the power systems and components the hubs run off. The power grids, appliances and systems with less hardening are still blitzed but the important hardware would only be damaged by cascading power surges (and even then damage would be minor). Most of the damage to the world grid was done by the Virus, the EMPs had an entirely different goal. The hubs (already corrupted by the Virus) aren't so much destroyed as taken offline thereby crippling the Virus - they would still need to be replace because of the damage done by Dissonance corruption.
The whole point of the EMP strikes was to: a) kill or cripple Jormungand (necessary in Winternight's attempt to playout the Ragnarok myth) b) make sure Pax didn't get her way (no telling what Loki's child could do to Fate if she succeeded) c) neuter authorities, interfering with any attempt to organize a counterstrike, while causing widespread panic among the population (before opening the gates of hell with the fault line nukes - which represent the unleashing of the elemental hordes of Muspelheim upon the Earth). The thing to keep in mind about Winternight's plot is that the most important aspect is that it is not focused on causing untold devastation, it is about ritualistically reproducing aspects of the Ragnarok mythos step by step to set the skein of Fate straight. |
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Aug 4 2006, 10:49 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Alright, thanks. That makes a little more sense. Then again, I said that before....
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Aug 4 2006, 10:55 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
Because I got started on this silly rant in the worse/best metaplot thread and it just gets sillier the more I think about it.
And now that freelancers and a soon to possibly be developer is trying to defend it its even funner. See even he agrees the plot is stupid, the system is fiber optic and hardened, so it would be foolish to replace all that with wireless systems since all the fiber stuff is safe from EMP and the rest was hardened against it. It would be far more costly to replace a fully functional system that could be repaired in just a few days with a entirely new and unproven techonolgy. And yeah they would recoup the costs of the new technology if joe average ever heard of it, seeing that their trideos are now fried or could go to the local store to buy it, but their cars now dont work and gridguide cant show them how to get to the mall. And our esteemed freelancer obviously has never been in DC. Nothing gets done in a couple days there. Even driving across DC takes most of the day, now get rid of gridguide and add even more faulty lights itll be several days before you find out everything broke. The good thing is there are plenty of hotdog vendors ont he corners and plenty of whores on the opposite corners, so youll have plenty of stuff to do while stuck in traffic. And to be perfectly honest they could have said the wireless matrix was shit out by magic fairies in 30 seconds after the EMP bombs went off, Im not playing SR4. Im done buying books, especially to replace a system that was fine for the most part with a system that isnt an improvement. The biggest gripe right now is the messed up hacking rules and the wireless book is at the bottom of the chart for printing. Oh and the screwy cyber arm rules havent been improved over the old system. Its too bad they didn't release Shadows of South America before going over to SR4, they would have gotten at least another $60 out of me. |
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Aug 4 2006, 11:17 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
I don't know about that. Maybe for the local governments but not for the corps. The Crash gives them an opportunity to sell all new product to a panicked public. "cashing in on reconstruction"
How does that work? Transys-Erika was the one on the scene with all the goods. They were prepared for such an event, not the other megas (cept maybe Lofwyr). The megas would have to switch gears and produce a completely new product and then try to sell it in competition with one another. Seems like that would cost even more money to accomplish and they would still stay in the same weakened state. |
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Aug 4 2006, 11:21 PM
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#36
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
You're jumping to several erroneous conclusions, mixing up a bunch of things and placing your own twist on them (for instance, the implementation of wireless protocols has nothing to do with EMP strikes, they were in the works anyway). You've somehow jumped to the conclusion that the old wired infrastructure has been abandonned for some reason when this is not mentioned anywhere in SR4 (ie. the fact that people use cellphones and wireless hubs today does not mean the fiberoptics, hardline hubs aren't still integral parts of any network).
Again you're labouring under a false assumption. Who said the infrastructure was replaced? In fact if you actually read the section on the Matrix 2.0 section of System Failure you'll find that what the corps have agreed to is a shift in protocols and the introduction of widescale wireless interfacing. Nothing about tearing down the old systems. Simply integrating the new wireless systems. In fact the exact quote is "Imagine it like a mesh, in which billions of nodes are all linked together in various networks that are themselves linked together, forming Local Area Networks (LANs) that can be either wireless, wired or a combination of different links." (emphasis mine). The implementation of wireless protocols has nothing strictly to do with the Crash 2.0 except that this presented the prime players with the perfect opportunity to introduce a new benchmark wireless protocol and routing hardware (and all such technology represents in terms of money-making products). Wireless protocols which were being field-tested and intended to be marketed in a couple of years anyway (SoE, SOTA64, SoA).
Actually I was referring to bringing those essential data traffic hubs back online and I stand by my statement. Especially when they aren't in the hands of government but rather the responsability (and lifeblood of) private MSP and Grid management corps. The rest of the damage would take months if not years to clear up, the death toll would be enormous, break down of social order and the rioting alone would leave things a mess - but none of that would keep the core Matrix hubs from going back up for essential traffic in a few days if the megas put their will behind it. Contrary to what you seem to believe the Matrix 2.0 protocols and the wireless grid did not immediately follow the Crash, it began being phased in following the Second Universal Matrix Conference. Adding wireless basestations to those newly rebuilt LTG routing hubs ushers in one huge business opportunity.
Nobody's asking you to.
NeoNET's technology is only really useful if it becomes the standard accepted Matrix protocol. If they can't get the other megacorps (at least) on board (ie. everybody else opts to reconstruct and tweak the Matrix 1 protocols) they're not going to be able to cash in on their breakthroughs. So instead they hold the Second Universal Matrix Conference and get everyone to sign on board in exchange to (cheap) licenses to the technology and opening up the market on next-gen wireless devices (at which they've still got a head-start anyway). Though the decision and agreements behind it were likely hammered out long before anything is made public, the Conference sees all the corps agreeing to the new protocol so it doesn't go up immediately following the Crash but is phased in over the next few years. |
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Aug 4 2006, 11:47 PM
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#37
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Matrix already featured a working wireless matrix - CSS even made it omnipresent. |
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Aug 4 2006, 11:50 PM
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#38
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
Like you just pointed out, Transys-erika would be building this system. In America and probably most countries the infrastructure is built by private industry, not the governments. If we were dependent on government to do it, the 5 year rebuild would be more like 50 years. And like you and a few others have pointed out, weak or unimportant systems wouldnt be hardened. So any trideo in the EMP wave or radio or pocket secretary would be useless. Not to mention tv signals in SR were sent across the matrix. No matrix and no hardware means no advertising new products. And as Synner said there would be the whole plot was to cause mass panic and all the other crap going on like coup de' tates whos going to go buy the latest edition of cell phone? Yeah let the roiters run out and steal a new tv, that one would be fried also and still matrix to recieve the latest in advertisements. EDIT: I know they are intergrel, I built a large portion of the latest in cell infrastructure on the eastern sea board of the US, I know how the eystem works. And again you still havent a clue about the wireless system that exsists today. Read what I said in the best worse meta plot thread. Two summers before the katrina hurrican a hurrican hit my area, it took down 23 cell phone towers. The lack of stockpiled hardware and man power made getting those 23 cell phone sites up and running a huge pain in the ass. And that was the only thing wrong ion the area. No major phone systems knocked out, no roiting, no computer virus blanking out the computer world, just the pure lack of availible hardware and man power. And this is from a company whos sole source of income is cellurphone revenue. And again another contrived senerio to make this plot work. The corps agreeing to make something work? When HDTV was first gaining popularity there was 2 standards, Phillips developed one and a group of corporations developed another. The fight between these two standards made the introduction of HDTV take that much longer. Do you think any of the Megas are going to conceed an inche of ground to a rival corp, especially one like transys that is already in position to run them into the ground? If the EMP/winternight attacks werent the reason to make the new wireless networks and that stuff happen, why have it at all, and why is it in the system failure book? I mean if it was going to be implemented in a few years anyway, the corps were all working on the stuff too, why even have winternight do anything? Reading the stuff in the SR4BBB it only makes sense to have the winternight guys nuke the old matrix and rebuild it with a new system. |
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Aug 5 2006, 12:02 AM
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#39
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Before SR4 was announced, several of us had plans to introduce a new wireless protocol in a SOTA65. As some writers have already mentioned, the authors of System Failure wrote most of the book without knowledge of the exact details of the changes SR4 would bring. Looking back on it now I'm amazed that the pieces actually fit into place the way they did. The problem with the way you're looking at System Failure and its metaplot tracks is that you're reducing them all to one end effect (the destruction or corruption of large parts of the grids) when in fact there are several, many of which are still bearing fruit in SR4. To name but a few: - The emergence of NeoNET and Villiers coming full circle. - The culmination of the Deus/Network storyline. - The apparent destruction of the 3 uber-AIs. - The Boston singularity event and the fundamental change to the nature of the Matrix (and its ramifications). - The evolution of otaku. - The accelerated implementation and integration of wireless technologies. - Coup d' etat(s) and the collapse of certain regimes. |
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Aug 5 2006, 12:10 AM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
I don't think Winternight is supposed to be sensible. They're fuckin' wackos.
And with the massive drops in profits for the corps (you can't sell shit without the 'trix) I bet they were pressured into it. The Crash hurts their pocketbooks and that's something the Corps have been listening to for a long time. The Corps don't like to start Corp wars because there is no profit. They do a lot of things that make little sense without greed and fear of losing ANY money. Corps listen to the Corporate Court, but don't really HAVE to (the megas, anyways). They could just do anything they want, but they reign it in listen to the tools on the bench. My point is, Cooperation in the face of falling profits has been something the corps have been doing for a while. |
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Aug 5 2006, 01:21 AM
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#41
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
Ok, Im done, I just dont see the point behind winternight setting off nukes to hurt the world and do it in such a half ass spectacular way to utterly fail in everything they did. While being able to acquire all those nuclear weapons and magical know how to do what the hell it was they did fail to see the world is magically protected from EMP except the key points that they wanted to hurt. Then all the megas get along well enough to get together to rebuild the matrix in peace and harmony with the other megas. Oh, and do it all in 5 years, but not only rebuild in 5 years, but a whole new culture build up around this technology. Grandma is barely cold from her recent burial caused by terrorists setting off nukes around the world.
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Aug 5 2006, 01:35 AM
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#42
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Actually they decided on the UMS 2 standards by February 2065. |
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Aug 5 2006, 01:37 AM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
They're FUCKING INSANE! What other reason do they need? They believe in fanatical doctrine. They actually wanted to bring around Ragnarok. There isnt a GOOD reason for them to do these things. They're just wacko.
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Aug 5 2006, 01:51 AM
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#44
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
If they were really serious about hastening the end of the world, they should have formed a powerful religious-political organization like Jerry Falwell did.
Woops. Tangent. |
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Aug 5 2006, 01:55 AM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Nah, I think you're right on track! Destroying the world for no reason.
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Aug 5 2006, 02:07 AM
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#46
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
No if they really wanted to bring around the end of the world they would have flat out nuked cities and watched everyone blame each other and nuke each other in turn. Not turn off the internet for a day, but then again I see what happens when my neighbor loses his cable for a couple hours.
And Im not talking about the group in the game, Im talking about the developers. There is or was no point in using them in the little capacity they did just to bring around the wireless matrix, like Synner has said, it was on its way anyway. IF they didnt jump to SR4 we would have SOTA 2065 around this time and it would be here according to him. So having some half baked threat from a book printed 6 years ago with other half baked threats make a big useless splash to introduce a new game doesnt seem right and not very well thought out. We (my group) have been using the wireless matrix since Matrix was printed. If you read in the book you could add a radio link to your cyberdeck and run a radio signal utility on your deck and use the matrix wirelessly, along with Maser, Laser, celluar and a bunch of other things. The only limiting factor much like any other jack point was bandwidth. |
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Aug 5 2006, 02:16 AM
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#47
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
You are hardly alone there, brutha. |
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Aug 5 2006, 02:24 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
It was already explained that the schemes of Winternight were symbolic as much as they were to achieve a specific real world goal. Sure you could just nuke everyone, but they're religious wackos. It has to MEAN something. It has to be done a certain way and with certain symbolism. Otherwise it would just be insane....
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Aug 5 2006, 03:10 AM
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#49
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
Nothing like hijacking a truck and having a decker sitting in the seat next to you hacking the Gridguide to turn all your lights green while turning them red behind you to impede all LoneStar pursuits, or fudging your location on the grid so the fuzz are chasing a ghost in the machine. Or setting up a bunch of Smart frames to run complex searches for you using a sat linked deck while you sit downstairs on the couch eating chessey poofs knowing you can only be tracked back to the hemisphere. Never really used Maser, Im not a fan of hooking my wetware to a voltage power line. We played a bit with letting deckers use a radio link and an amp from the rigger 3 book to amp his signal and run a pirate radio show out of a bulldog step van. Nothing fancy, basically broadcasting underground music and such. Our team really wasnt anti-establishment, after all they paid the bills and gave the money to buy these crazy toys, or at least made them so we could steal them. If I remember correctly, I dont recall if the rules allowed it, but I seem to remember the decker hacking with his cell link, then using a radio link to talk to us while in the building. Nothing funnier then watching a decker try to hijack a low skilled riggers network, then run into his big brother. Once they introduced the wireless connections teh only time we used a hard line was on site and had to be physically jacked in to get the pay data or hack the secuirty system. And Sam they could do like all other religions, set out to do something by the "book" fail, try again the right way, succeed, then rewrite the "book." |
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Aug 5 2006, 03:24 AM
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#50
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Ah, yeah. I know some people who got around that by using a drone as a signal repeater. Maser-->drone-->decker. |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 29th June 2026 - 04:32 AM |
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