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Samaels Ghost
Just read a lot of System Failure, and I'm confused. If those EMPs only took out power sources, caused minor hardware failures, and destroyed low end systems, why upgrade the Matrix as a whole? Why the whole wireless web? All the fiberoptics networks are still there, right? Decks and other electronics got their power supplies fried but those could be replaced and no doubt quite a few deckers are capable of repairing their own. I live near St. Louis and we just had similar situation. Bad weather and power outages = dead old people and pissed off citizens. SF even compares the whole incident to a very bad storm. Two weeks after our storms, St. Louis is mostly back together. Granted, SR's world got their actual power plants and what not destroyed, but it's nothing a concerted effort couldn't fix in a few weeks.

Why the replacement for the old Matrix? How fast has everything actually recovered? Where was this technology (wireless networks, smaller than deck computers) BEFORE the crash? All the players who ended up on top after the crash seem to have known that this would happen and held their cards to play them just at the right time. Is it a coincedence or conspiracy?
BookWyrm
System Failure is pretty much an adventure "reason" why the big leap from SR3 to SR4. This way, it covers the gap with enough information, scenarios & sub scenarios so that while you take time to upgrade/convert your game to SR4, you still have enough material to keep running SR3-based adventures, or close the book on the SR Universe.

As for the big upgrade, again, it's to bridge the gap between SR3 & SR4 for long time players. From what I could read, it was being planned in the storyline but the actions of the terrorists just made it easier.
Ancient History
It wasn't just the power outages, Winternight took out several of the major Matrix junctions - transoceanic optical cable hubs and the like - and Jormungand completely trashed system architecture. The cost to reboot the Matrix would have been at least as much to install a new wireless system over top of it, and wireless makes more economic sense in the long run.
Samaels Ghost
That makes some sense. What about decks though? Are they up to snuff compared to the newer commlink? Except for size, of course. I imagine all those runners with Excailburs are pretty peeved dead.gif
WhiskeyMac
The wireless Matrix was introduced in the Matrix book for 3rd edition. It is just technological progress to have it evolve to the stage it is at now. Also, instead of having to replace all those trans-global hubs and stuff, they just had to jury-rig or install some new radio towers and they got it much cheaper and efficient.

I also wonder about decks. So my kick-ass modified to hell and back Fairlight Excalibur is now just useful as a club compared to the Street Sammie's MetaLink? That doesn't make sense that they would go obsolete so fast. Of course, nowadays, a computer is obsolete by the time it is introduced, so go figure.
Teux
Obsolete so fast?

The 6 years between crash 2.0 and 2070 is the same amount of time it took us to go from a nascent internet to the beginning of the dot com bubble.

It's the time gap between 800Mhz processors and 4Ghz processors.

Computer technology moves fast. Six years to go totally wireless after a complete crash sounds about right to me...
Bull
Also keep in mind this...

I easily imagine a sesssion of the corporate court where the reps spent a couple days talking about it, and decided that all the companies they represented were going to push for this change. So over a period of several years, the 10 companies that produce 95%+ of, well, everything are phasing out the older tech and phasing in the new wireless stuff. Plus integrating it into society via marketing and the like.

SOTA is a bitch.

Bull
Samaels Ghost
Good business move, now that I think of it.

"You gonna fix our Matrix, Corps?"
"Nah"
"...Why not? We really liked it smile.gif "
"We've got a new one for you to buy biggrin.gif"
"Buy? frown.gif How much is that going to cost?"
" nuyen.gif vegm.gif nuyen.gif "
SL James
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost @ Aug 3 2006, 06:49 PM)
Just read a lot of System Failure, and I'm confused. If those EMPs only took out power sources, caused minor hardware failures, and destroyed low end systems, why upgrade the Matrix as a whole? onspiracy?

See, for a terrorist group so clever they managed to make high-yield magically-enhanced EMP bombs out of tactical/subtactical warheads, they fuck up pretty badly by detonating them at such a low altitude. Between Kitimat (I know it's spelled wrong. I don't care), San Francisco, Boston and Washington the EMP bombs should have-given their enhancements-blacked out all North America. Think of what Coldbringer did in The Dark Knight Returns only much, much worse. But that would kind of kill the whole handwaving "and then a shitload of stuff happened, and you're only going to find out after the fact" so it didn't happen because apparently Lofwyr can magically hinder the yield on nuclear weapons, let alone the nonsensical BS Winternight set off. At least it saved us from the pseudo-science crap behind the faultline nukes.

Plus there is the likelihood that given the geographic spread, Z-O would be ashes scattered over one of the oceans. But I digress.
Samaels Ghost
Magic nukes....whatever. Silly idea to begin with. I'll just tell my GM I'm magically moding all my guns from no on so that they fire bullets so fast they become plasma or something equally absurd.
Critias
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
Magic nukes....whatever. Silly idea to begin with. I'll just tell my GM I'm magically moding all my guns from no on so that they fire bullets so fast they become plasma or something equally absurd.

No, no. The magic made them worse, not better. That's the really funny part. So your GM should go "Okay!" and let you magic-up your guns, and, in turn, give them all the basic damage level of hold-outs or something, only automatically make it all stun damage. Cut in half. Minus 1.

Because these magic nukes? They sucked.
BookWyrm
QUOTE (Bull)
SOTA is a bitch.

Amen, brother.
Aaron
QUOTE (BookWyrm)
QUOTE (Bull @ Aug 3 2006, 07:34 PM)
SOTA is a bitch.

Amen, brother.

Great jumpin' spirits, I hope they just hand-wave SOTA and say the cost of constantly upgrading is included in Lifestyle payments.
Critias
QUOTE (Aaron)
QUOTE (BookWyrm)
QUOTE (Bull @ Aug 3 2006, 07:34 PM)
SOTA is a bitch.

Amen, brother.

Great jumpin' spirits, I hope they just hand-wave SOTA and say the cost of constantly upgrading is included in Lifestyle payments.

Or you could stay "SOTA" by just actually staying state of the art -- IE, upgrading your character's gear as necessary, to keep up with the latest supplements with the latest and greatest gear. Since, y'know, that's what SOTA means, after all.
Frag-o Delux
So these magic nukes didnt kill thousands of people? Not just in the blast wave, but because all kinds of critical systems were destroyed, like life support systems in hospitals and such? The world didnt turn into a huge police state trying to figure out where these nukes came from? Huge riots didnt break out because now everyone that only used nuyen credits now doesnt have any moeny or food? They couldnt get into their houses because the electronic locks now dont work? They couldnt find their way across town or find a shelter on a map, because in SR3 they all but siad people are illiterate in the the 2060s, and since the gird guide system would have been fried their grid guide systems couldnt guide them to shelters? I mean I know people that can barely drive around our home town today, imagine if your car did all your driving for you anyway. Too bad cars wont work either as their alternators would be fried and electric cars would be screwed. Not to mention all the exsisting radio towers would have been damaged. And how would you be marketed a new wireless net work when your home electricity would be caught off for a long time, and Im not just saying because the power plant up the road is wiped out, but your home wiring would be damaged and all your home electronics. So you wouldnt know what happened for a long time anyway, seeing that you wont be able to hear from the emergency people in the first place. So what countries went to war with each other when this happened? I mean they wouldnt have been any wiser to what happened then anyone else and would have seen it as an attack by their enemies and started shooting at each other.

With the nukes that size set off around the world to cause a global system failure of the matrix the extent of damage done to non-matrix systems would far out weigh the need to replace the matrix. Then you have to consider all the things that were totally reliant on the matrix, such as all the megas, I mean they didnt make the Omega rule of not screwing with each others daily operations or communications for no reason. The one real place to hurt the magas would be their sat links and matrix nodes. The fact that any of the Big 10 are nearly as powerful as they once were just 6 years later is absurd. The fact that the nations of the world are even around is also crazy. Im not a satellite expert, but wouldnt the EMP also travel up and damage the sats? And arent sats still controlled by ground based stations? I mean if they are, how long before the birds lose their way and come tumbling back into earth?

On the flip side if the attacks were so small as to only effect the minor systems of the matrix, the cost of replacing it would be cheaper then trying to shuffle all new systems into place. The exsisting equipment would have been scavenged from exsisting non critical sites and relocated to get the critical systems back up and running, then the system would have been slowly replaced like it has been since forever. I was replacing the old cell equipment with the newer GSM stuff today, and in the future itll be no different. Its all about money.

But also, if this winternight group is so hell bent on ending humanity why only do such little damage to the matrix? Wouldnt their attacks been much larger in scale? Setting off all thos nukes and creating the EMP wave I described would be it. Why are cities like Seattle or DeeCee still around? Wouldnt setting off a nuke in these towns done a lot of damage? In DeeCee alone you have a ton of agencies that would be crippled if those buildings where super heated in a fraction of a second. And talk about loosing the Matrix. Right in Alexandria across the river, still well with in a blast zone of a nuke, there are 7 of the root servers of the internet today. You know the .com .org stuff. Those servers poof you no longer can surf the internet reliably. There are a couple of those servers in LA I believe, but I can see them being moved in SR.

I would have nuked Denver to see a real show get started.

The whole nuke/EMP frying the matrix and rebuilding in 6 years with a new sub culture built around brand new tech is so funny it hurts.

Fanpro or who ever is in control, (dont correct me Adam, if I cared enough about who owned what I would have remembered by now) should have just nuked the world, then bumped the time line ahead 20 years, and rebooted the system. The reason everyone above is giving for such a quick restart is to let the older players still feel continuity. The players that moved to SR4 would do so anyway, they didnt need such a rushed BS story behind the matrix reboot. The new players that started with SR4 probably wouldnt care anyway other then hearing the old farts wax poetically about old days. The players that stayed in SR3 dont care either, other then to laugh at all the stuff messed up in SR4 then see the projected publishing of the new books and laugh knowing its going to be a very very long time before those things get fixed. Its really funny that the hole reboot of the matrix is the back story to moving to SR4 and the Matrix sourcebook is one of the last to be published. They could have also really saved soome time going to the new system (SR4) with out the 5 year skip, and just added the wireless stuff. Its already there, it just sucked. The bandwidth was too limiting. They could have just released SR4 just like they released all the other edition upgrades as a new edition with no reason other they they felt it improved the game and added the wireless stuff and made all the changes they did.

Yeah SOTA is such a bitch that in 12 years the Fairlight was the top dog cyber deck, then some crappy story comes along and makes not only the Fairlight obsolete but every thing deck related obsolete. Then gives you iPod hackers.

Synner
Just to set the record straight, hundreds of thousands of people do die (not only from the EMP strikes but also from the nano- and bio-weapons they release to keep Jormungand safe). However, the EMP strikes target only a dozen or so cities and several of them are neutralized. It is important to remember that most SR electronics are optical and hardened. As explained in System Failure the Winternight EMP strikes are not intended to destroy the Sixth World's technology base but rather "turn it off" by attacking its vulnerable elements. Though cascades would inevitably happen over powerlines and the second Crash doesn't damage the systems and software per se but the infrastructure and power supplies.

Regarding the nuclear devices themselves, they are mostly modified suitcase nukes and low yield warheads - something with a groundzero of about 4-500 m (you know the sort Ares used in Chicago) - in a 1km altitude airburst. The airburst is important because it extends the area affected by the resulting EMP burst/pinch - has the side-effect that heatwave, radioactive fallout and especially shockwaves are significantly less than those of a ground-level detonation.

Note that what Winternight is trying to do with the EMPs is blind the world, temporarily disrupt the Matrix, and ensure Jormungand is crippled befoire the main event begins with the detonation of the fault-line nukes. After the first crash the power players of the Sixth World could only ever be more paranoid and careful than current day powers and were Winternight's strike solely EMP based it would probably have done even less damage. With Jormungand on the loose the odds change significantly because that's one contingency no corp or government could have expected or prepared for.

So yes, some areas descend into chaos with blackouts, widescale rioting, racial violence, thousands of collateral casualties, soldiers on the streets, enough chaos to mask a coup d'etat, etc. But in places like Washington DC critical systems would be back on line in a couple of days tops, the brass would be hiding out in bunkers, and backup systems and auxiliary power would kick in in the interim.

Finally, anyway you paint it most of the Megas take a huge hit from the Crash and the easiest way for them to recoup is to cash in on reconstruction. There's a lot of money to be made in rebuilding but there's a lot more to be made if they convince the world it needs a safer, next gen Matrix.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Synner)
There's a lot of money to be made in rebuilding but there's a lot more to be made if they convince the world it needs a safer, next gen Matrix.

A wireless matrix isn't actually safer against EMP. wink.gif

Most fiberoptic landlines would be still intact or quickly reinstalled, so the main backbone of the matrix still is most likely the same, just the top layers got upgrades - from a cellular network capable of simsense to... well, an advanced wireless network with a unified protocol.

PS: ..must... not... comment.. on... nanoweapons...
SL James
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Synner)
There's a lot of money to be made in rebuilding but there's a lot more to be made if they convince the world it needs a safer, next gen Matrix.

A wireless matrix isn't actually safer against EMP. wink.gif

Or anything, really.
Smokeskin
QUOTE (SL James)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Aug 4 2006, 05:21 AM)

A wireless matrix isn't actually safer against EMP. wink.gif

Or anything, really.

Except scissors
SL James
Anyway, I cannot in good conscience say anything more about the book or the plots in System Failure beyond what I have already said in the past.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Synner)
There's a lot of money to be made in rebuilding but there's a lot more to be made if they convince the world it needs a safer, next gen Matrix.

A wireless matrix isn't actually safer against EMP. wink.gif

hmm, watch out. you may have a visit from a corp court strike team...
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Synner)
There's a lot of money to be made in rebuilding but there's a lot more to be made if they convince the world it needs a safer, next gen Matrix.

A wireless matrix isn't actually safer against EMP. wink.gif

hmm, watch out. you may have a visit from a corp court strike team...

You mean that strike team standing around cluelessly and wondering what the microwave generator mounted on a sattelite dish did to their gear? nyahnyah.gif
hobgoblin
hmm, i would have guessed that the guns would have had a mechanical failsafe when the smartlinks dropped out...

or had they gone triggerless?
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
or had they gone triggerless?

Of course - wouldn't you expect such a team to use the superior H&K Urban Series? grinbig.gif
hobgoblin
it realy depends. if they where ex-goverment i would expect them to use whatever they got that fittet their "standards" at the lowest cost possible...
JongWK
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux @ Aug 4 2006, 04:28 AM)
Why are cities like Seattle or DeeCee still around? Wouldnt setting off a nuke in these towns done a lot of damage? In DeeCee alone you have a ton of agencies that would be crippled if those buildings where super heated in a fraction of a second.

IIRC, Winternight did target DC with a nuke, but the device detonated in the city's outskirts rather than in the middle of it (it was moved by the authorities).
SL James
Which is where it would have been in the first place, since all that Matrix traffic would (like IRL where like half of all international traffic is routed through) go through northern Virginia (actually more west than south of Washington), and not Washington. Given the ~20km radius mentioned in SF, if placed properly it should have barely touched the city (if at all) if it had been moved as few as ~10km. The only safe place to have dragged it would have been south towards Quantico and the CAS border.

At least it's not like putting the SF bomb northeast of the Presidio.
Frag-o Delux
Actually if you go south of DC, follow route 1/395 into Arlington, just as you pass the Pentagon there is a road, I believe its Courthouse road, suprise suprise its got Arlingtons district courts there. If you follow that road down. Look to your left, youll see the Verizon building, across from that is the AT&T building. In the AT&T building is housed a fiber optic line, named the golden pathway. In the middle of the night is one piss poor quality rent a cop watching that building. That fiberline handles tons of government lines. To be honest its not just one line, its about 200 of them.

Why all that information? Because that should be one of the hardest buildings in the world to get into and a guy making less then $10 hour is all that keeps you out. And the building certainly isnt hardened, I would use my cell phone in there all the time. If I can use my cell phone standing next to the fiber node, then EMP can get it. And I know for absolute sure the equipment itself isnt hardened, I installed tons of it.

And why would you shield all the fibersystems in the world? Thats a shit load of money wasted accept if you have a plot to contrive. The only good reason to shield electronics is if you expect that type of attack and what corp would or if you are tryign to stop people from listening in on calls and with fiber you cant just listen to magnetic bleed to hear signals.

The whole nuke/EMP only tiny bits of the world effect plot is contrived. Makes no sense. Then the we only wanted to blind the world while we set off fault line nukes makes the whole thing even stupider. If the world is caught off gaurd by these EMP bombs, why wouldnt they be caught off gaurd by the big fault line nukes?

Everyone sitting around the conspiracy table:

Guy #1:what we are going to do is set off really fucking huge nukes on the fault lines in a very Max Zorin type plot. But not only are we going to flood Silicon Valley but destroy the world like we have been plotting for years. *goes through a step by step plan on how they are going to covertly do this task*

Guy #2: Umm, what if we also set off a bunch of smaller ones a few days before to "Blind" the world, so they are caught off gaurd by the second wave of nuke attacks?

Guy #1: That sounds good, let start acquiring a shit load more nuclear equipment and fissile material and hope the GM doesnt use the walls have ears rules on us.

Guy #3 whispering to guy#4: Why are we using nukes, hasnt their been a lot of previous history of nuclear weapons not working, the Lone Eagle event I think its been called in the news? and all those nuclear plants self destructing. Yeah I see us pullling this off with no problems at all.

Guy #5: I would like to also point out to this distinguished panel we have worked hard and and time to pay off is at hand. We have covered every possible problem.

Guy #3: My cousin Ted works for the phone company, he said they have hardened all the equipment in the hundreads and hundreds of phone offices, routing stations, and switch boxes. How will this effect our EMP attacks?

Guy #5: It wont effect us at all.

Cell phone towers are worse for EMP attacks, just because those huge ass antennas are exspensive already, do you think they are going to shield all that cable?

Eh, still seems contrived and silly.
ethinos
Shadowrun is our parallel universe of what could have been. They have real magic, elves, trolls, vampires, and friggin' dragons. Ok...so,

Why start nitpicking about "contrived and silly" now?

You'd think that you would be used to odd things happening in the Shadowrun world.
Samaels Ghost
Wait, I still don't unterstand how these "the major Matrix junctions - transoceanic optical cable hubs and the like" were taken out. If such important hardware was hardened, as it should be, these hubs should have survived. It seems like, if anything needed to be protected from such an incident, it would be these hubs. So the reprocussions and direct damage were:

EMPs attacks:
  • Minor unprotected hardware fried
  • Electric Grid and other power sources fried
  • Blast probably pretty nasty to those close by

Jorgamund Virus:
  • Many major Matrix grids stripped and useless
  • Captian Chaos dead-ski
  • Sattelites taken down (how?)
  • The Morgue is gone, so is Shadowland and others.

Were the major Matrix hubs taken out by the EMPs or the Virus? It seems as if the EMPs shouldn't be able to affect these hubs.
SL James
Don't think too hard about it. Your brain will try to escape your body. Just accept it happened and move on.

Now, if you'll excuse me, mine is trying to sneak out the back door...
Synner
The EMPs took out the power systems and components the hubs run off. The power grids, appliances and systems with less hardening are still blitzed but the important hardware would only be damaged by cascading power surges (and even then damage would be minor). Most of the damage to the world grid was done by the Virus, the EMPs had an entirely different goal. The hubs (already corrupted by the Virus) aren't so much destroyed as taken offline thereby crippling the Virus - they would still need to be replace because of the damage done by Dissonance corruption.

The whole point of the EMP strikes was to:

a) kill or cripple Jormungand (necessary in Winternight's attempt to playout the Ragnarok myth)
b) make sure Pax didn't get her way (no telling what Loki's child could do to Fate if she succeeded)
c) neuter authorities, interfering with any attempt to organize a counterstrike, while causing widespread panic among the population (before opening the gates of hell with the fault line nukes - which represent the unleashing of the elemental hordes of Muspelheim upon the Earth).

The thing to keep in mind about Winternight's plot is that the most important aspect is that it is not focused on causing untold devastation, it is about ritualistically reproducing aspects of the Ragnarok mythos step by step to set the skein of Fate straight.
Samaels Ghost
Alright, thanks. That makes a little more sense. Then again, I said that before....
Frag-o Delux
Because I got started on this silly rant in the worse/best metaplot thread and it just gets sillier the more I think about it.

And now that freelancers and a soon to possibly be developer is trying to defend it its even funner. See even he agrees the plot is stupid, the system is fiber optic and hardened, so it would be foolish to replace all that with wireless systems since all the fiber stuff is safe from EMP and the rest was hardened against it. It would be far more costly to replace a fully functional system that could be repaired in just a few days with a entirely new and unproven techonolgy. And yeah they would recoup the costs of the new technology if joe average ever heard of it, seeing that their trideos are now fried or could go to the local store to buy it, but their cars now dont work and gridguide cant show them how to get to the mall. And our esteemed freelancer obviously has never been in DC. Nothing gets done in a couple days there. Even driving across DC takes most of the day, now get rid of gridguide and add even more faulty lights itll be several days before you find out everything broke. The good thing is there are plenty of hotdog vendors ont he corners and plenty of whores on the opposite corners, so youll have plenty of stuff to do while stuck in traffic.

And to be perfectly honest they could have said the wireless matrix was shit out by magic fairies in 30 seconds after the EMP bombs went off, Im not playing SR4. Im done buying books, especially to replace a system that was fine for the most part with a system that isnt an improvement. The biggest gripe right now is the messed up hacking rules and the wireless book is at the bottom of the chart for printing. Oh and the screwy cyber arm rules havent been improved over the old system.

Its too bad they didn't release Shadows of South America before going over to SR4, they would have gotten at least another $60 out of me.
Samaels Ghost
QUOTE
It would be far more costly to replace a fully functional system that could be repaired in just a few days with a entirely new and unproven techonolgy.


I don't know about that. Maybe for the local governments but not for the corps. The Crash gives them an opportunity to sell all new product to a panicked public. "cashing in on reconstruction"

QUOTE ("Synner")
Finally, anyway you paint it most of the Megas take a huge hit from the Crash and the easiest way for them to recoup is to cash in on reconstruction. There's a lot of money to be made in rebuilding but there's a lot more to be made if they convince the world it needs a safer, next gen Matrix.


How does that work? Transys-Erika was the one on the scene with all the goods. They were prepared for such an event, not the other megas (cept maybe Lofwyr). The megas would have to switch gears and produce a completely new product and then try to sell it in competition with one another. Seems like that would cost even more money to accomplish and they would still stay in the same weakened state.
Synner
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux @ Aug 4 2006, 10:55 PM)
And now that freelancers and a soon to possibly be developer is trying to defend it its even funner. See even he agrees the plot is stupid, the system is fiber optic and hardened, so it would be foolish to replace all that with wireless systems since all the fiber stuff is safe from EMP and the rest was hardened against it.


You're jumping to several erroneous conclusions, mixing up a bunch of things and placing your own twist on them (for instance, the implementation of wireless protocols has nothing to do with EMP strikes, they were in the works anyway). You've somehow jumped to the conclusion that the old wired infrastructure has been abandonned for some reason when this is not mentioned anywhere in SR4 (ie. the fact that people use cellphones and wireless hubs today does not mean the fiberoptics, hardline hubs aren't still integral parts of any network).

QUOTE
It would be far more costly to replace a fully functional system that could be repaired in just a few days with a entirely new and unproven techonolgy. And yeah they would recoup the costs of the new technology if joe average ever heard of it, seeing that their trideos are now fried or could go to the local store to buy it, but their cars now dont work and gridguide cant show them how to get to the mall.

Again you're labouring under a false assumption. Who said the infrastructure was replaced? In fact if you actually read the section on the Matrix 2.0 section of System Failure you'll find that what the corps have agreed to is a shift in protocols and the introduction of widescale wireless interfacing. Nothing about tearing down the old systems. Simply integrating the new wireless systems. In fact the exact quote is "Imagine it like a mesh, in which billions of nodes are all linked together in various networks that are themselves linked together, forming Local Area Networks (LANs) that can be either wireless, wired or a combination of different links." (emphasis mine).

The implementation of wireless protocols has nothing strictly to do with the Crash 2.0 except that this presented the prime players with the perfect opportunity to introduce a new benchmark wireless protocol and routing hardware (and all such technology represents in terms of money-making products). Wireless protocols which were being field-tested and intended to be marketed in a couple of years anyway (SoE, SOTA64, SoA).

QUOTE
And our esteemed freelancer obviously has never been in DC. Nothing gets done in a couple days there. Even driving across DC takes most of the day, now get rid of gridguide and add even more faulty lights itll be several days before you find out everything broke. The good thing is there are plenty of hotdog vendors ont he corners and plenty of whores on the opposite corners, so youll have plenty of stuff to do while stuck in traffic.

Actually I was referring to bringing those essential data traffic hubs back online and I stand by my statement. Especially when they aren't in the hands of government but rather the responsability (and lifeblood of) private MSP and Grid management corps.

The rest of the damage would take months if not years to clear up, the death toll would be enormous, break down of social order and the rioting alone would leave things a mess - but none of that would keep the core Matrix hubs from going back up for essential traffic in a few days if the megas put their will behind it. Contrary to what you seem to believe the Matrix 2.0 protocols and the wireless grid did not immediately follow the Crash, it began being phased in following the Second Universal Matrix Conference. Adding wireless basestations to those newly rebuilt LTG routing hubs ushers in one huge business opportunity.

QUOTE
And to be perfectly honest they could have said the wireless matrix was shit out by magic fairies in 30 seconds after the EMP bombs went off, Im not playing SR4.

Nobody's asking you to.

QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
QUOTE (Synner)

Finally, anyway you paint it most of the Megas take a huge hit from the Crash and the easiest way for them to recoup is to cash in on reconstruction. There's a lot of money to be made in rebuilding but there's a lot more to be made if they convince the world it needs a safer, next gen Matrix.

How does that work? Transys-Erika was the one on the scene with all the goods. They were prepared for such an event, not the other megas (cept maybe Lofwyr). The megas would have to switch gears and produce a completely new product and then try to sell it in competition with one another. Seems like that would cost even more money to accomplish and they would still stay in the same weakened state.

NeoNET's technology is only really useful if it becomes the standard accepted Matrix protocol. If they can't get the other megacorps (at least) on board (ie. everybody else opts to reconstruct and tweak the Matrix 1 protocols) they're not going to be able to cash in on their breakthroughs. So instead they hold the Second Universal Matrix Conference and get everyone to sign on board in exchange to (cheap) licenses to the technology and opening up the market on next-gen wireless devices (at which they've still got a head-start anyway).

Though the decision and agreements behind it were likely hammered out long before anything is made public, the Conference sees all the corps agreeing to the new protocol so it doesn't go up immediately following the Crash but is phased in over the next few years.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Synner)
Wireless protocols which were being field-tested and intended to be marketed in a couple of years anyway (SoE, SOTA64, SoA).

Matrix already featured a working wireless matrix - CSS even made it omnipresent.
Frag-o Delux
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
QUOTE
It would be far more costly to replace a fully functional system that could be repaired in just a few days with a entirely new and unproven techonolgy.


I don't know about that. Maybe for the local governments but not for the corps. The Crash gives them an opportunity to sell all new product to a panicked public. "cashing in on reconstruction"


Like you just pointed out, Transys-erika would be building this system. In America and probably most countries the infrastructure is built by private industry, not the governments. If we were dependent on government to do it, the 5 year rebuild would be more like 50 years.

And like you and a few others have pointed out, weak or unimportant systems wouldnt be hardened. So any trideo in the EMP wave or radio or pocket secretary would be useless. Not to mention tv signals in SR were sent across the matrix. No matrix and no hardware means no advertising new products. And as Synner said there would be the whole plot was to cause mass panic and all the other crap going on like coup de' tates whos going to go buy the latest edition of cell phone? Yeah let the roiters run out and steal a new tv, that one would be fried also and still matrix to recieve the latest in advertisements.

EDIT: I know they are intergrel, I built a large portion of the latest in cell infrastructure on the eastern sea board of the US, I know how the eystem works. And again you still havent a clue about the wireless system that exsists today. Read what I said in the best worse meta plot thread. Two summers before the katrina hurrican a hurrican hit my area, it took down 23 cell phone towers. The lack of stockpiled hardware and man power made getting those 23 cell phone sites up and running a huge pain in the ass. And that was the only thing wrong ion the area. No major phone systems knocked out, no roiting, no computer virus blanking out the computer world, just the pure lack of availible hardware and man power. And this is from a company whos sole source of income is cellurphone revenue.

And again another contrived senerio to make this plot work. The corps agreeing to make something work? When HDTV was first gaining popularity there was 2 standards, Phillips developed one and a group of corporations developed another. The fight between these two standards made the introduction of HDTV take that much longer. Do you think any of the Megas are going to conceed an inche of ground to a rival corp, especially one like transys that is already in position to run them into the ground?

If the EMP/winternight attacks werent the reason to make the new wireless networks and that stuff happen, why have it at all, and why is it in the system failure book? I mean if it was going to be implemented in a few years anyway, the corps were all working on the stuff too, why even have winternight do anything? Reading the stuff in the SR4BBB it only makes sense to have the winternight guys nuke the old matrix and rebuild it with a new system.
Synner
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux @ Aug 4 2006, 11:50 PM)
If the EMP/winternight attacks werent the reason to make the new wireless networks and that stuff happen, why have it at all, and why is it in the system failure book? I mean if it was going to be implemented in a few years anyway, the corps were all working on the stuff too, why even have winternight do anything? Reading the stuff in the SR4BBB it only makes sense to have the winternight guys nuke the old matrix and rebuild it with a new system.

Before SR4 was announced, several of us had plans to introduce a new wireless protocol in a SOTA65. As some writers have already mentioned, the authors of System Failure wrote most of the book without knowledge of the exact details of the changes SR4 would bring. Looking back on it now I'm amazed that the pieces actually fit into place the way they did.

The problem with the way you're looking at System Failure and its metaplot tracks is that you're reducing them all to one end effect (the destruction or corruption of large parts of the grids) when in fact there are several, many of which are still bearing fruit in SR4. To name but a few:

- The emergence of NeoNET and Villiers coming full circle.
- The culmination of the Deus/Network storyline.
- The apparent destruction of the 3 uber-AIs.
- The Boston singularity event and the fundamental change to the nature of the Matrix (and its ramifications).
- The evolution of otaku.
- The accelerated implementation and integration of wireless technologies.
- Coup d' etat(s) and the collapse of certain regimes.
Samaels Ghost
I don't think Winternight is supposed to be sensible. They're fuckin' wackos.

And with the massive drops in profits for the corps (you can't sell shit without the 'trix) I bet they were pressured into it. The Crash hurts their pocketbooks and that's something the Corps have been listening to for a long time. The Corps don't like to start Corp wars because there is no profit. They do a lot of things that make little sense without greed and fear of losing ANY money. Corps listen to the Corporate Court, but don't really HAVE to (the megas, anyways). They could just do anything they want, but they reign it in listen to the tools on the bench.
My point is, Cooperation in the face of falling profits has been something the corps have been doing for a while.
Frag-o Delux
Ok, Im done, I just dont see the point behind winternight setting off nukes to hurt the world and do it in such a half ass spectacular way to utterly fail in everything they did. While being able to acquire all those nuclear weapons and magical know how to do what the hell it was they did fail to see the world is magically protected from EMP except the key points that they wanted to hurt. Then all the megas get along well enough to get together to rebuild the matrix in peace and harmony with the other megas. Oh, and do it all in 5 years, but not only rebuild in 5 years, but a whole new culture build up around this technology. Grandma is barely cold from her recent burial caused by terrorists setting off nukes around the world.
SL James
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
Ok, Im done, I just dont see the point behind winternight setting off nukes to hurt the world and do it in such a half ass spectacular way to utterly fail in everything they did. While being able to acquire all those nuclear weapons and magical know how to do what the hell it was they did fail to see the world is magically protected from EMP except the key points that they wanted to hurt. Then all the megas get along well enough to get together to rebuild the matrix in peace and harmony with the other megas. Oh, and do it all in 5 years, but not only rebuild in 5 years, but a whole new culture build up around this technology. Grandma is barely cold from her recent burial caused by terrorists setting off nukes around the world.

Actually they decided on the UMS 2 standards by February 2065.
Samaels Ghost
They're FUCKING INSANE! What other reason do they need? They believe in fanatical doctrine. They actually wanted to bring around Ragnarok. There isnt a GOOD reason for them to do these things. They're just wacko.
SL James
If they were really serious about hastening the end of the world, they should have formed a powerful religious-political organization like Jerry Falwell did.

Woops. Tangent.
Samaels Ghost
Nah, I think you're right on track! Destroying the world for no reason.
Frag-o Delux
No if they really wanted to bring around the end of the world they would have flat out nuked cities and watched everyone blame each other and nuke each other in turn. Not turn off the internet for a day, but then again I see what happens when my neighbor loses his cable for a couple hours.

And Im not talking about the group in the game, Im talking about the developers. There is or was no point in using them in the little capacity they did just to bring around the wireless matrix, like Synner has said, it was on its way anyway. IF they didnt jump to SR4 we would have SOTA 2065 around this time and it would be here according to him. So having some half baked threat from a book printed 6 years ago with other half baked threats make a big useless splash to introduce a new game doesnt seem right and not very well thought out.

We (my group) have been using the wireless matrix since Matrix was printed. If you read in the book you could add a radio link to your cyberdeck and run a radio signal utility on your deck and use the matrix wirelessly, along with Maser, Laser, celluar and a bunch of other things. The only limiting factor much like any other jack point was bandwidth.
SL James
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
We (my group) have been using the wireless matrix since Matrix was printed. If you read in the book you could add a radio link to your cyberdeck and run a radio signal utility on your deck and use the matrix wirelessly, along with Maser, Laser, celluar and a bunch of other things. The only limiting factor much like any other jack point was bandwidth.

You are hardly alone there, brutha.
Samaels Ghost
It was already explained that the schemes of Winternight were symbolic as much as they were to achieve a specific real world goal. Sure you could just nuke everyone, but they're religious wackos. It has to MEAN something. It has to be done a certain way and with certain symbolism. Otherwise it would just be insane....
Frag-o Delux
QUOTE (SL James)
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux @ Aug 4 2006, 08:07 PM)
We (my group) have been using the wireless matrix since Matrix was printed. If you read in the book you could add a radio link to your cyberdeck and run a radio signal utility on your deck and use the matrix wirelessly, along with Maser, Laser, celluar and a bunch of other things. The only limiting factor much like any other jack point was bandwidth.

You are hardly alone there, brutha.

Nothing like hijacking a truck and having a decker sitting in the seat next to you hacking the Gridguide to turn all your lights green while turning them red behind you to impede all LoneStar pursuits, or fudging your location on the grid so the fuzz are chasing a ghost in the machine. Or setting up a bunch of Smart frames to run complex searches for you using a sat linked deck while you sit downstairs on the couch eating chessey poofs knowing you can only be tracked back to the hemisphere. Never really used Maser, Im not a fan of hooking my wetware to a voltage power line. We played a bit with letting deckers use a radio link and an amp from the rigger 3 book to amp his signal and run a pirate radio show out of a bulldog step van. Nothing fancy, basically broadcasting underground music and such. Our team really wasnt anti-establishment, after all they paid the bills and gave the money to buy these crazy toys, or at least made them so we could steal them. If I remember correctly, I dont recall if the rules allowed it, but I seem to remember the decker hacking with his cell link, then using a radio link to talk to us while in the building. Nothing funnier then watching a decker try to hijack a low skilled riggers network, then run into his big brother. Once they introduced the wireless connections teh only time we used a hard line was on site and had to be physically jacked in to get the pay data or hack the secuirty system.

And Sam they could do like all other religions, set out to do something by the "book" fail, try again the right way, succeed, then rewrite the "book."
SL James
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
Never really used Maser, Im not a fan of hooking my wetware to a voltage power line. We played a bit with letting deckers use a radio link and an amp from the rigger 3 book to amp his signal and run a pirate radio show out of a bulldog step van.

Ah, yeah. I know some people who got around that by using a drone as a signal repeater. Maser-->drone-->decker.
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