 Isn't possession overpowered? |
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 Aug 10 2006, 01:38 AM
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#126
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717  |
Is that something extra free?
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Aug 10 2006, 01:46 AM
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#127
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
It will be.
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Aug 10 2006, 01:48 AM
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#128
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Excellent. Is that something a FAQ, or will it be jucier?
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Aug 10 2006, 02:01 AM
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#129
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Cap or No Cap: The Drinking Game I'll see what I can put together for an idea for the FAQ in the next day or few. Because I was feeling sort of confident about what was capped and what wasn't. But now I'm certainly not. I'm not alone in my confusion either, or I wouldn't be busting on you about it. Well, OK I might anyways. But I feel better about it this way. :D P.S. Your PM box appears to be turned off or full. Do you want me to email it or post it? |
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Aug 10 2006, 02:03 AM
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#130
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 8-September 05 Member No.: 7,718 |
Don't have my books in front of me, but I recall Air spirits as clouds, tornados, ect. and Fire spirits as bonfires (sometimes with metahuman shapes). See the illustrations next to the spirit stats for one . In fact, I could use the given fluf text to blster my position. It describes that the apperience of the spirt makes no diffrence in how it effects the real world. "A spirit can cut you in half just as well with a cardboard tube as with a katana." I woudl argue therefore that the effects ON the spirit could appear diffrently yet have identical effects. The giant bolder that is trying to eat you might simply bounce the bullet off it's skin, while the tornado spirit allows it to pass harmlessly through. The effects the spirit experiences from these events may be exactly the same. As for implying that the fact that spirits feel pain dispite not having a central nervous system, implies that is responds to ALL stimuli as if it HAD a central nervous system. Octopuses' nervous system is barely "centrilized" in that it has a number of nerve clusters which can control each arm indipendently of the central "brain". Yet it has been conclusively shown that they can feel pain. This is so well known that in the U.S. they are required to be given anesthesa before surgery. So the spirits may be able to feel pain, but may have a completely diffrent way of feeling it. We as players are not told what that is (we have EXPLICITLY not been told, as in they have said that the in game experts don't know). What exactly is your position anyway? |
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Aug 10 2006, 02:16 AM
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#131
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Those are tiny little B&W inks. Plus the fire spirit looks decidely not like a fire, and the air spirit is also at least partially humanoid and appears to not be translucent in any way. Hard to tell from the pose that water spirit is in. But I think we've found a good part of the problem. :) How about picking this up again when you have the books in front of you and can provide some specific quotes?
That you are choosing to interpret selectively and over extrapolate, and then proclaim that the other parts of the book don't match up with [your overly extrapolated selective interpretation of] the other parts. Plus that doing so creates unnessasary confusion and a misunderstanding of the rules. |
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Aug 10 2006, 03:52 AM
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#132
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 8-September 05 Member No.: 7,718 |
OK, I had forgotten the exact artwork in SR4, and my recollection was faulty. For better artwork: See the artwork on page 177 of the SR4 main book. This looks like an air spirit if I have ever seen one... and LOOK... The poor human in the picture appears to be firing into the maelstrom with no effect! However, such artwork is not a "quote" so here you go: See the sidebar on page 96 of street magic under the subheading "Air". A number of the options there would be sufficiently "non-solid" for my reasons. See also "Fire" (the following page), where the aura of flame is described. All of this goes to my central point: spirits are flexible, and the description (not the mechanics) of how their powers work should be too. You assert that I am making "selective interpretations". Please, enlighten me as to which sections of the cannon texts I am neglecting to include in my approach. As for my extrapolation being "excessive" that is highly subjective. I have provided several quotes to support my position ("Considering that literally hundreds of magical traditions are practiced worldwide, the sky’s the limit.", "A spirit can cut you in half just as well with a cardboard tube as with a katana.") As for rules confusion: I am used to playing with old SR players who have about 15 years of RPG experience each. They are able to seperate the mechanics from the in-game fluff text with no problems. In fact I award a role-playing karma every mission for the best description of an action. "I shoot him" is lousy. "I duck under the gunfire, spin around, my long coat flapping in the wind, aquire the target and double-tap two shots to his head" is better. No game mechanical effect, but much more interesting. You have refused agree that I was not comitting the deadly sin of "b" from about two or three pages back, and you have never responded to several points I have made regarding this. May I take your silence on this issue as a surrender of the point? |
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Aug 10 2006, 05:07 AM
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#133
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Visually perhaps. However page 92 shows that they are all in fact the same materials acting in the same way. So in truth none is less solid than the other. Further, since the rules also show to us that APDS do indeed work better than regular ammo for all spirits and Stick'n'Shocks do stick and shock all spirits, we find that your supposition lacking. Page 92 is itself a solution that satisfies all the statements of the rule books. It where, and I'll assume this was Frank Trollman that wrote that though perhaps Synner can shed some light on that, all the tibits on spirits from the BBB and Mag are brought together and reconciled.
In this case it is your separation of fluff from mechanics that is at the core of the issue here. Because they together for the description of the functioning of the world, one does not lord over the other. Until they are reconciled in your mind you haven't grokked the text....or the errata isn't out yet. :D In this case though they can be reconciled without errata. You are under the mistaken impression that your chosen visualization is fully supported by Shadowrun canon. But all you have done is cherry picked some partial passages, which you the over extrapolate in issolation to support your visualization as well as different ones. Then you have then chossen to ignore other parts that you incorrectly claim are irreconcilable with the parts you choose to favour. So go ahead and change spirits from their canon nature, it is indeed your group's game to do as they wish. But please spare us trying to claim you haven't, or that the 'mechanics' are not in sync with the 'fluff'. You are stuck on a false dilema.
Sorry, got off track and missed getting back to that. It was the essense of 'b)', except you decided not to actually do anything about the false dilemma you created other than complain and shrug. :) P.S. It is possible that slugs that don't penatrate pass through spirits. However if this is so you are also left with the mind bending oddity that non-penetrating AND penetrating slugs both seem to pass through the same 3D point in the spirit with one harming and the other not. Likely happening with both solid and non-solid appearing spirits alike (or things then get really freaking wierd). That is the crux of it though, because if you didn't see a problem with that to start with you wouldn't see a contradiction with APDS working as they do. |
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Aug 10 2006, 05:22 AM
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#134
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
not to go combining anyone's cheerios with piss again, but if anyone ever wondered exactly where my issues with SR4 spring from, Synner has summed it up more succinctly than i've ever managed:
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Aug 10 2006, 05:26 AM
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#135
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
So what you are really saying is that Synner is a much better writer than you? Urine for everyone's breakfast cereal! 8) |
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Aug 10 2006, 05:33 AM
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#136
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
What he said. |
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Aug 10 2006, 08:10 AM
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#137
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
That makes sense since a whole lot of primarily online players I've talked to have a problem with this type of approach. Most prefer detailed and specific rulings with the least amount of leeway possible so as not to lead to misinterpretation problems. That's a significant difference from tabletop where such issues can be ironed out on the fly across the table among friends. The net (whether PbP or chat-driven games) is not a particularly good environment for hashing out style and But ultimately it has to do with putting your trust in the guy whose shouldering the burden of telling the story and running the game in the first place. Sure there are plenty of crappy GMs (probably as many as crappy players) out there but the fact that a rule says that "when in doubt, it's the GM's call" doesn't mean the players have no input. This sort of thing can and is hashed everyday around game tables just by having the players sit down and bring up and issue, and everyone come to a concensus (or at least majority) decision that the the GM then enforces. To bring up the much maligned Called Shot rule yet again - the whole Called Shot/Blind Fire issue came up in playtesting with my group (I purposefully included a rules lawyer with a few munchkin leanings). We stopped the game for 5 minutes, while I put the situation to the group and asked them what level of realism they wanted me to employ. They (with one exception - guess who?) agreed that Calling a Shot at someone hidden behind a polarized/opaque car window shouldn't be possible and the GM should veto the shot and we went back to the game. The issue won't come up again because we have a reference point. I want to underline that the vast majority of the time the fundamental rule stands on its own and is in itself quite balanced, SR4 just calls on the GM to decide whether its applicable or not in any given situation. |
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Aug 10 2006, 08:45 AM
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#138
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Man, your dice must hate you. ;) My players are already advocating I should stop rolling openly, as it's 50% hits in average, with the occasional 90%. A Force 10+ Sprit doesn't have to roll - he can trade his 20 dice into 5 Hits and posess nearly anything. On average, a force 6 Spirit will posess anything technical. |
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Aug 10 2006, 08:49 AM
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#139
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Edit: I looked it up, a spirit rolls 2xforce to posess things. The probability of 6 dice getting 3 hits is 32%, and 10 dice is 70% http://www.serbitar.de/stuff/probabilities.xls (are the rule designers using probability calculators, btw ? they definately should). This means that a force 5 spirit will generally do it and one can try to summon 3 force 3 spirits who will do it My I ask how you arrive at force 11+? I find this quite wierd (and unnerving) as a rule designer should be familiar with his probabilities. As a workarround I would suggest the following: As long as the armor is not full body armor, the invulnerability does only apply to the armor, not to the wearer, but only adds FORCE to both armor ratings. Regarding a FAQ: This thing should have been out about 6 month ago . . . Thats why I appreciate somebody actually commenting on questions. Rob and Adam never do that.
Again: This has nothing to do with trust and good/bad GMing. This has to do with having a common ground. To give another example: We were in the "silent" phase of a run, as a player decided to fire a silenced shotgun at somebody. He was thinking that this was perfectly acceptable, as he had red the rules about silencers and how hard it is to hear such a shot from a certain distance away (which also apply to shotguns). But the problem was, that most of the players and the GM thought that something like a shotgun shot is noisy as hell. In the end we decided to stick to the rules in this case and in the future treat a shotgun shot as noisy as hell. But you get the problem: In a game, where players have to "fight" against a certain scenario, make plans and judge situations, the players and the GM need to have a common ground. This can only be achieved by tight, and consistent rules. (Though in this case, it was not a rules problem,a s the rules were clear) SR is no story telling RPG (although you can play it this way) where the GM tells a good story and the players sit back and should not care about rules too much. Instead it is mostly the players vs a scenario, and as such the sceneario (which includes the rules) have to be well defined, especially as everything is only a virtual construct and the players are supposed to act as if they were professionals in their field. Everything that is optional in SR4 forces the players and GMs to discuss things beforehand, and as this is not often done, creates problems on the fly. |
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Aug 10 2006, 09:27 AM
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#140
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
The trade in rule is only applicable when the subjet has an exceptionally large pool (and is unlikely to fail) - this is unlikely to apply to Possession. Apologies regarding the 11+ Force, it was meant to be 11+ dice pool (but I was at work, ran the numbers in my head and rushed to post - something that happens all too often these days and I need to be more careful with. This is why I don't post in an official capacity). However, this post did bring to my attention one issue. To wit: Possession was initially written to require one net hit (meaning 4 hits on a threshold of 3), this final print version of the power was adjusted to reflect the basic Threshold mechanic. Not entirely sure how that eluded me (there was a lot of stuff to crosscheck and reference) but its also behind any discrepancies in my posted math. |
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Aug 10 2006, 09:44 AM
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#141
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
I see, that can happen. A threshold test succeds when you reach the threshold. I would not change the way how treshold tests work. This leads to special rules for everything. If something has to be adjusted, then just double the threshold for possesion, that fixes about everything (and gives the preparation rule some sense). |
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Aug 10 2006, 11:50 AM
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#142
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 8-September 05 Member No.: 7,718 |
Nope, try again: "a recombinant protoplasm that replicates function, mass, texture and properties near enough as to provide no physical difference." from page 92 of Street magic indicates that while the material may be that same, it's properties change depending on the spirit. So if an air spirit looks like a tornado, it IS a tornado... As for ignoreing other cannon text in the process of "cherry picking" please provide me with the quotes I asked for in my previous post.
Spirits are strange and un-natural? They don't obey the conventional laws of physics? The nature of them is not fully explainible? Wonderfull! You have finaly seen the light! |
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Aug 10 2006, 02:00 PM
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#143
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
:please:
The question always was when are you going to see the light? |
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Aug 10 2006, 02:13 PM
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#144
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 8-September 05 Member No.: 7,718 |
Another quote taken from my devil's advocate argument taken out of context? You sure you don't work for any political campaigns? Read more carefully next time. Got those citations to refute my "cherry picking" yet? Thought not. |
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Aug 10 2006, 02:19 PM
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#145
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
:rotfl: :rollin: For brevity I just used that one, the rest of the paragraph is the same. As is the second paragraph. But please, explain what you ment by it. Because I'm just going by this:
So again, when are you going to see the light? |
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Aug 10 2006, 02:38 PM
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#146
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 8-September 05 Member No.: 7,718 |
*sigh* Do you understadn that the post you are refrenceing was done to illustrate that the mechanics and the descriptions are not coherent? If not then this discussion is pointless becasue if you are unable to grasp that concept then my deeper point will be beyond your capibilities. Also... I had asked for CANNON citations. Last time I checked my posts were not blessed by the SR4 line developer. What light would you have me see? Your light seems a bit dim to me, perhaps that is why I have been unable to see it. |
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Aug 10 2006, 02:43 PM
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#147
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Yes.
That your assertion that the game mechanics and game descriptions are not coherent is in truth incorrect. Only your interpretation of the descriptions are, to some extent and not even entirely there although it is inconsistant with one particular line. That others exist which are coherent with the mechanics. |
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Aug 10 2006, 02:49 PM
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#148
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Is actually any standard spirit able to possess things?
Cant find a spirit with the posession power, where are they? |
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Aug 10 2006, 02:50 PM
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#149
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
It doesn't depend on the spirit type - it depends on the conjurer.
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Aug 10 2006, 02:50 PM
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#150
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
The Tradition of the spirit dictates Materialization or Possession. One or the other, if that is what you are getting at. |
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