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Smokeskin
Am I missing something, or is possession way overpowered?

A standard Force 5 spirit is likely to be able to possess anyone. In combat, that removes 1 enemy, and turns him into a complete monster with incredible stats that is extremely well positioned to kick the crap out of the opposition.
hobgoblin
ok so it removes 1 enemy. but besides that, what makes it different from having the spirit show up right next to the enemies when summoned?

(i have yet to read street magic)
Samaels Ghost
Are the stats Force + Victim's stats, or Spirit's +Victim's?
booklord
I thought possession required the victim to either be willing or astrally active. ( I never really dealt with it much ) How does it differ now?

( I'm waiting for the deadwood version of Street Magic )
Smokeskin
Stats are force + vic stats. They get all powers, including immunity to weapons.

Possession attempt is force x 2 vs will + int.

There is no mention of requiring a willing subject.

Isn't this basically a low-drain control action spell that gives the target incredible powers?
TBRMInsanity
There is one reason why possession is not overpowered. All possessed characters become NPCs till the end of the possession. Now they are a challenge not an overpowered PC.
Synner
There are several other limitations linked to Possession, to name but a few:

* It requires a Complex Action to accomplish.
* The spirit is fully in charge of the body (ie. it's an NPC not a PC).
* Statistically speaking Possessing spirits tend to have lower average stats than their Materialized counterparts (unless you can find a troll gang to possess).
* Possession only lasts while services remain (while in combat this won't make much difference but calling on physical powers during the course of a run will whittle down the services).
* Finally casting a Control Thoughts spell is a much cheaper and more effective option of controlling someone directly.

On the other hand you can now have a Possessed red corvette...
Rotbart van Dainig
Posession is only overpowered if augmented attribute caps don't apply.
Serbitar
Is possession resisted continously like controll thoughts?
Controll thoughts has been nerfed a lot by the ability of the victim to chew away hits with opposed willpower tests every X combat turns.
Frag-o Delux
QUOTE (Synner @ Aug 8 2006, 08:33 AM)

On the other hand you can now have a Possessed red corvette...

Does this truely mean a spirit can take control of inanimate objects? How hard is it (not asking for the rules, just your opinion) and if its possible, whats to stop a mage from possesing a riggers car and driving him off a cliff?
Synner
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux @ Aug 8 2006, 02:36 PM)
QUOTE (Synner @ Aug 8 2006, 08:33 AM)

On the other hand you can now have a Possessed red corvette...

Does this truely mean a spirit can take control of inanimate objects? How hard is it (not asking for the rules, just your opinion) and if its possible, whats to stop a mage from possesing a riggers car and driving him off a cliff?

Possessing vehicles and drones is quite hard, not impossible but unlikely for anything less than a force 8 spirit. Doing so with a prepared vessel is slightly easier but requires a significant expense and a whole lot of work.
hobgoblin
something tells me that street magic is one "insane" book nyahnyah.gif
Grinder
K.I.T.T.! biggrin.gif
Smokeskin
Among insane and really cool things would be drive around with a plasteel homunculus in the passenger seat of your car, and then animate it with a possessing spirit to kick some serious ass biggrin.gif
Brahm
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 8 2006, 09:57 AM)
something tells me that street magic is one "insane" book nyahnyah.gif

Orgasm/Orgy is going to help give it that label. smile.gif However I mostly like what I see so far.

The Adept Centering for example that gets rid of penalties only is a huge improvement on the past. Of course people will immediately jump on the "combine it with Called Shot for 'free' damage", but as per usual the root problem there is still Called Shot.

I'm also glad to see the latent magic, mundane astral sight, and the aspected magician Qualities. Very cool, though I haven't finished fully analysing them. I kinda wish the Latent Quality was around when I made my unaugmented mundane character, I likely would have given him that. Although maybe it is for the best that he didn't have it.
James McMurray
What does the Latent quality do, and is mundane astral sight as good as awakenend astral sight?
Synner
The Latent Quality allows you to make a downpayment in BPs so that your character may Awaken later in play. However, the manner in which he does awaken, when it happens, and what abilities he develops is not up to the player but the GM.
James McMurray
Sweet! Thanks!
JonathanC
oops, wrong topic.
mfb
QUOTE (Synner)
On the other hand you can now have a Possessed red corvette...

yeesh. every time i think "y'know, maybe i could try ignoring the things i dislike about SR4", something new pops up.
Grinder
biggrin.gif Damn, a possessed red corvette is so cheesy, it's cool!
James McMurray
What model was the car in Carrie Christine?
Teux
QUOTE (James McMurray)
What model was the car in Carrie?

I think you mean Christine... and it was a '58 Plymouth Fury.

Spooky
Charon
I'm eager to read this spirit possessing objects stuff.

I doubt possessing a car is the most common use. But blood thirsty spirits bound to a weapon or an amulet slowly influencing and taking ovefr the personality of its owner are stapples of the fantasy genre.
Brahm
A staple of the fantasy genre, and to some extend already existing is Shadowrun. For example Imps.
SL James
Except that Imps are inside foci.
Brahm
Under the new spirit pact rules Imps could in fact be the Foci. Or more to the point it could be a spirit inhabiting a cheap piece of glass and tin. The Drain Pact is particularly nasty as its use to a character for supplimenting the dice pool for a Drain Test is addictive. The spirit can also at any time withhold the service and demand additional payment, such as karama.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (Synner)
On the other hand you can now have a Possessed red corvette...

yeesh. every time i think "y'know, maybe i could try ignoring the things i dislike about SR4", something new pops up.

I'm not a big fan of possessed corvettes either. However, if you have possessed unliving vessels in the SR4 mechanics, there's no real way to exclude corvettes without an SR3-style unique exception, which we want to avoid. However, it is considerably harder for a spirit to possess more complex unliving objects, since it's based on Object Resistance. Also, it's considerably harder to prepare a vessel like a corvette, since that test is also based on Object Resistance and requires alchemic radicals based on mass.
mfb
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
However, if you have possessed unliving vessels in the SR4 mechanics...

that's kinda my issue, right there. i mean... why?
James McMurray
It's pretty common in literature, and it's easier to include something that some GMs ignore than it is to leave something out and make GMs create it. at least, it's easier from a developer's chair.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
However, if you have possessed unliving vessels in the SR4 mechanics...

that's kinda my issue, right there. i mean... why?

The mechanics need to be there to explain imps and shedim, for starters. Imps can't possess foci and shedim can't possess corpses without rules for possessing unliving vessels.

But, yeah, it also supports concepts like golems, which are significant to some traditions (like Qabbala).
mfb
QUOTE (James McMurray)
It's pretty common in literature, and it's easier to include something that some GMs ignore than it is to leave something out and make GMs create it. at least, it's easier from a developer's chair.

i don't think that's quite accurate, though. if it were something that lots of people had a houserule for, okay--but that isn't the case. up till now, people were satisfied with imps, and the ability of ally spirits to assume a wide variety of forms--even red Plymouth Furies, or corvettes if that's your thing.

i mean, okay, golems and the like are common in literature. so what? so's teleportation, time travel, raising the dead, people who block bullets with swords... so what? SR doesn't have those. it has other things, y'know?

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
The mechanics need to be there to explain imps and shedim, for starters. Imps can't possess foci and shedim can't possess corpses without rules for possessing unliving vessels.

untrue, unless shedim are no longer limited to possessing dead bodies, and imps are no longer limited to possessing foci. both of those require special-case rules to begin with, unless they've been completely changed. which isn't outside the bounds of possibility, i guess.
Brahm
'raising the dead' - Check!
mfb
heh, i mean in a less Night of the Living Dead manner. you know, guy dies and comes back, but doesn't crave the brains of the living.

as for golems, i thought ally spirits had that covered nicely. if we're talking about literature, it's not like qabbalists had lots of golems running around under their command.
Rotbart van Dainig
SR already had golems, service loa, gizmos, etc.

What it didn't were unified rules.
Demonseed Elite
Shedim, for example, use the spirit power Possession (Dead or Abandoned Vessels). Same Possession rules, but they have a subset of the ability limiting them to certain types of vessels.
mfb
you can have unified rules without having possessed cars. there already have to be special-case powers, unless you're allowing shedim to possess corvettes and imps to possess Plymouth Furies.

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
Shedim, for example, use the spirit power Possession (Dead or Abandoned Vessels). Same Possession rules, but they have a subset of the ability limiting them to certain types of vessels.

that's what i mean. so you've got shedim possessing dead bodies--how does that lead to possessed cars? just because you've got the mechanics for A doesn't necessarily mean you have to allow them to be applied to B.

sigh. anyway. enjoy SR4.
Brahm
QUOTE (mfb)
heh, i mean in a less Night of the Living Dead manner. you know, guy dies and comes back, but doesn't crave the brains of the living.

Who needs to die to crave the brains of the living? question.gif
Brahm
QUOTE (mfb @ Aug 8 2006, 04:53 PM)
you can have unified rules without having possessed cars. there already have to be special-case powers, unless you're allowing shedim to possess corvettes and imps to possess Plymouth Furies.

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
Shedim, for example, use the spirit power Possession (Dead or Abandoned Vessels). Same Possession rules, but they have a subset of the ability limiting them to certain types of vessels.

that's what i mean. so you've got shedim possessing dead bodies--how does that lead to possessed cars?

sigh. anyway. enjoy SR4.

No, see there are universal rules. It is more like a metapower that a specific power. Then when they are applied in specific instances is where the limitation comes in. It is like the Shapechange spell. The general is shapechange into any creature, but when it is named as a actual spell it gains a specific use/limit. Or the spirit power Engulf, but for any given spirit the damage they do with the engulf is of one particular kind.

P.S. A 1958 Flury can be made into a focus. Why not possesion, if that is what turns your crank?
mfb
bah, so much for me letting it drop.

mechanics don't have to be universally applied to be universal. you've got mechanics for possessing inanimate objects--that doesn't mean you need to give spirits the ability to possess any and every inanimate object. you can have Possession (Dead or Abandoned Vessels) for shedim, Possession (Clay Humanoids) for golems, Possession (Foci) for imps, etcetera. you don't have to give some spirits Possession (Whatever It Is They Feel Like Possessing Today).

car foci are okay(ish, but not in my game) because car foci aren't going to drive themselves around.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (mfb)
bah, so much for me letting it drop.

mechanics don't have to be universally applied to be universal. you've got mechanics for possessing inanimate objects--that doesn't mean you need to give spirits the ability to possess any and every inanimate object. you can have Possession (Dead or Abandoned Vessels) for shedim, Possession (Clay Humanoids) for golems, Possession (Foci) for imps, etcetera. you don't have to give some spirits Possession (Whatever It Is They Feel Like Possessing Today).

I agree with you, but we don't really have things like Golem spirits. Spirit categories are more broad than that. If we start putting limits in right in Street Magic, that might hinder things we want to do in the future. Which kinda goes against what we intend with SR4. We don't want to find out, down the road, that our exception tied our hands and then have to go around it with a new custom mechanic.

But, seriously, I've got zero issue with a GM saying "Spirits can only possess vessels with an Object Resistance of 3 or less." That would eliminate vehicles from the equation. It's just that I am sure not every GM wants to play that way, so I don't think we should dictate it in Street Magic.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (mfb)
you can have unified rules without having possessed cars.

Hardly. That's what set theory is about. wink.gif
Brahm
Since the GM, with whatever level of input from the players, is ultimately in control of the design of a tradition. Therefore via the designaton of the Possession trait they are in control of what the spirits of that tradition can and cannot inhabit.
mfb
*shrug* SR4 is all about GM-guided play, make it a general rule that the GM gets to enforce as he sees fit. "most spirits can only possess certain types of vessels; for instance, qabbalists frequently have their spirits possess clay humanoids."

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Hardly. That's what set theory is about.

not hardly at all. see my above refutation.

i dunno. like i said, SR has some things and doesn't have other things. one thing it doesn't have is me as a player, so i'll quit pissing in y'all's cheerios.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
But, seriously, I've got zero issue with a GM saying "Spirits can only possess vessels with an Object Resistance of 3 or less." That would eliminate vehicles from the equation. It's just that I am sure not every GM wants to play that way, so I don't think we should dictate it in Street Magic.

Hear hear! I don't see myself using possessed cars anytime soon, but I'd hate to have to make up my own rules if I ever wanted to, especially since there are already rules in place for possessing corpses and foci.
James McMurray
QUOTE (mfb)
i'll quit pissing in y'all's cheerios.

Sure, but for how long?
mfb
three or four minutes, at least.
Demonseed Elite
It is already a bit of a general rule. We do say on page 102: "Ultimately, itís up to the gamemaster to rule what the spirit can control and what it canít." So if a GM wants to say that a spirit can not control a Corvette and make it drive, it's within his power to do so. He'll have to explain to his PCs why a spirit might not be able to make a car drive around but can make a corpse walk, but that's his call.

This was something the writers and playtesters went back and forth on for a long time. Probably the single-most reviewed mechanic in the book.
Brahm
I suppose that is why it got it's own multipage sidebar?
Rotbart van Dainig
Sadly, a posessed answering machine is out of the question. grinbig.gif
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