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> TM's System limited by Response?
Lagomorph
post Aug 9 2006, 09:57 PM
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On p213 (guess who brought their book to work today :D) It says that a System rating is limited by the response rating of a device. Meaning that a 5 system on a 4 response is a 4 system.

Now, does the same rule apply to technomancers since their Response is not reduced by programs (p233)?
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DireRadiant
post Aug 9 2006, 10:28 PM
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Are you asking if a technomancer with Intuition of 3 and a Logic of 5 will actually have a Living persona with a System of 3 because System is limited by response? Otherwise Complex Forms do not affect the TM Response.

TM Living Persona
Response = Intuition
System = Logic
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Lagomorph
post Aug 9 2006, 11:08 PM
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Yes, that's my question exactly. Is a technomancers System rating the lowest of (Resonance or Logic), or is it the lowest of (Resonance or Logic or Intuition)?

edit: I apologize if my first post was confusing, it was after I reread it.
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DireRadiant
post Aug 9 2006, 11:19 PM
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While Resonance is an explicit cap onte living persona attributes, and it is quite clear for nodes that system is limited by response, it is not clear whether or not that applies to Technomancer's living persona. I can see arguments either way. Rules consistency, treat Tm Living Persona and brain as a commlink/node one way, e.g cap system based on Resonance and response. The other way is to regard the Technomancer as a very special case and allow a living persona system rating that is not capped by the living persona response. One indicator is that complex forms do not lower response that Tm are different.

My personal feeling is that I would not limit living persona system to living persona response. One thing to keep in mind is that System is also the Technomancer's Damage resistance rating and I wouldn't want to limit that.
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Lagomorph
post Aug 9 2006, 11:42 PM
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Yeah, I can see arguments both ways, thats why I asked :)

System is used for damage resistance for TM's? Since they have no Matrix damage track, and goes straight to stun, wouldn't they resist with Willpower and Biofeedback like other direct damage tract attacks (blackout/blackhammer)?
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RunnerPaul
post Aug 10 2006, 01:39 AM
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QUOTE (Lagomorph @ Aug 9 2006, 06:42 PM)
Yeah, I can see arguments both ways, thats why I asked :)

Put it up in Bull's Hacking Questions thread.
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DireRadiant
post Aug 10 2006, 01:19 PM
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QUOTE (Lagomorph)
System is used for damage resistance for TM's? Since they have no Matrix damage track, and goes straight to stun, wouldn't they resist with Willpower and Biofeedback like other direct damage tract attacks (blackout/blackhammer)?

p. 231 "Matrix damage to an icon from an Attack program is resisted
with a System + Armor program Test. Damage from a Black IC
attack is resisted with Willpower + Biofeedback Filter."

So if the TM is hacked or attacked directly System is used for Damage resistance.
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Lagomorph
post Aug 10 2006, 05:25 PM
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QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Aug 10 2006, 01:39 AM)
QUOTE (Lagomorph @ Aug 9 2006, 06:42 PM)
Yeah, I can see arguments both ways, thats why I asked :)

Put it up in Bull's Hacking Questions thread.

Was planning to, I just wanted to post outside of that thread incase there was a simple answer that I missed.

Edit: It's up there now
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Lagomorph
post Aug 10 2006, 05:36 PM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant)
p. 231 "Matrix damage to an icon from an Attack program is resisted
with a System + Armor program Test. Damage from a Black IC
attack is resisted with Willpower + Biofeedback Filter."

So if the TM is hacked or attacked directly System is used for Damage resistance.

TM's never take matrix damage, they only ever take stun or physical damage from matrix attacks.

p233:
"Since a TMs Living Persona is generated by his brain, TMs do not have a seperate Matrix Condition Monitor - they use their own Stun and Physical Condition Monitors. This means that any damage a TM takes in the real world will impede his Matrix abilities and vice versa. Matrix Damage is automatically treated as Stun Damage."


So that means an Attack program acts like a BlackOut program interms of affecting TMs on the Stun track instead of the Matrix track. It doesn't have the other effects of BlackOut like Jamming the connection open and so on. Though by the phrasing of that last quoted sentance, it sounds like it's Matrix damage up until it would be applied to the matrix track, meaning that it's resisted with System and Armor.
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Rami
post Aug 13 2006, 09:43 PM
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System + armor to resist attack programs even as a technomancer. Sample technomancer character has armor complex form and armor description does not indicate it works differently (or doesn't work at all) as a complex form unlike say Medic or biofeedback filter. Plus its one of the few uses technomancers seem to have for System.

On main issue of whether system's limited by response, I doubt it. One of the choices for submersion is raising system up to 3 times. You can't do the same with response.
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M.Fillmore.1138
post Aug 15 2006, 09:10 PM
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QUOTE (Rami)
On main issue of whether system's limited by response, I doubt it. One of the choices for submersion is raising system up to 3 times. You can't do the same with response.

On a related note (I am still learning SR4, so please bear with me on this one):

Is the Living Persona defined only at character creation? If I increase my technomancer's Logic, does that increase their system, or can I only increase System via Submersion?
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Mr. Unpronouncea...
post Aug 15 2006, 09:13 PM
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It should go up as your character improves, yes.
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Lagomorph
post Aug 15 2006, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE (M.Fillmore.1138 @ Aug 15 2006, 09:10 PM)
QUOTE (Rami)
On main issue of whether system's limited by response, I doubt it. One of the choices for submersion is raising system up to 3 times. You can't do the same with response.

On a related note (I am still learning SR4, so please bear with me on this one):

Is the Living Persona defined only at character creation? If I increase my technomancer's Logic, does that increase their system, or can I only increase System via Submersion?

Yes, it should improve up with the attribute to the maximum which would be the Resonance rating of the character.

Edit: that only raises another question though, is the System Increase Echo in Submersion also limited to the characters Resonance? If I have a Logic 7, Res 7 and take the System Echo, is the System 8? or still limited to 7 by Res?
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Rami
post Aug 16 2006, 09:14 AM
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Nothing says otherwise so I don't see why resonance wouldn't still cap it. But immersion raises your effective Resonance by one so you'll rarely run into this problem. Personally, I think technomancer has better things to do than raise their effective system rating since it doesn't cap their complex form ratings like a hacker's system would cap program ratings.
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Ranneko
post Aug 16 2006, 09:34 AM
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No, immersion raises your max resonance by one, you still have to purchase the extra resonance seperately.
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Rami
post Aug 16 2006, 11:11 AM
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Righto, my mistake. I've been used to people raise their magic/resonance trait with each initiation/submersion.
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laughingowl
post Oct 24 2006, 01:44 AM
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As to submersion until later rules books come out....

My GM and me are treated them like 'magic/cyberware' bonues.

The natural stat is limited by resonance. Modified maxium is norma; *1.5.

So:

"that only raises another question though, is the System Increase Echo in Submersion also limited to the characters Resonance? If I have a Logic 7, Res 7 and take the System Echo, is the System 8? or still limited to 7 by Res?"

Resonance 7 Logic 7 Submersion 1 System Upgrade -1 would give your a system of 7 (8)

And Resonance 7 Logic 7 Submersion 3 System Upgrade 3 would give you a system of 7 (10)


While EXTREMELY unlikely you would ever do it:

Resonance 2 Logic 6 Submersion 3 System Upgrade 3 would give you a system rating of 2 (3) (the two additional system uprgrade 'wasted' since you are you modified cap. Now if when you raise your resonance to 3 it would be come System 3 (4 or 5 cant remember if you round up on limits) and if raised resonance to the maxium 9 it would be system 6 (natual is still 6) (9)

So the 'maximum' a human technomancer could have is:

Resonance 10 Submersion 4 Logic 7 (10)
Exptional Attribute (logic)
Increase Attribute-10 (logic) (3+hits)

Then Living Persona's System would be Logic (10) + System Upgrade (3) = 13.

Yes the above is very high but so is the karma cost. NOTE instead of 'magic' to increase logic, Cyber/bioware could be used, with corresponding extra submersion to offset the resonance lost.


The submersion echo seem to give bouses to the 'liviing person stats' NOT the mental stat that is used to calculate the living persona (within the resonance cap).

Rules arent clear either way, but if still bound by the 'cap' all of the submersion grades seems a little weak
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