TM's System limited by Response? Options

[Lagomorph]

On p213 (guess who brought their book to work today :D) It says that a System rating is limited by the response rating of a device. Meaning that a 5 system on a 4 response is a 4 system.

Now, does the same rule apply to technomancers since their Response is not reduced by programs (p233)?

[DireRadiant]

Are you asking if a technomancer with Intuition of 3 and a Logic of 5 will actually have a Living persona with a System of 3 because System is limited by response? Otherwise Complex Forms do not affect the TM Response.

TM Living Persona
Response = Intuition
System = Logic

[Lagomorph]

Yes, that's my question exactly. Is a technomancers System rating the lowest of (Resonance or Logic), or is it the lowest of (Resonance or Logic or Intuition)?

edit: I apologize if my first post was confusing, it was after I reread it.

[DireRadiant]

While Resonance is an explicit cap onte living persona attributes, and it is quite clear for nodes that system is limited by response, it is not clear whether or not that applies to Technomancer's living persona. I can see arguments either way. Rules consistency, treat Tm Living Persona and brain as a commlink/node one way, e.g cap system based on Resonance and response. The other way is to regard the Technomancer as a very special case and allow a living persona system rating that is not capped by the living persona response. One indicator is that complex forms do not lower response that Tm are different.

My personal feeling is that I would not limit living persona system to living persona response. One thing to keep in mind is that System is also the Technomancer's Damage resistance rating and I wouldn't want to limit that.

[Lagomorph]

Yeah, I can see arguments both ways, thats why I asked :)

System is used for damage resistance for TM's? Since they have no Matrix damage track, and goes straight to stun, wouldn't they resist with Willpower and Biofeedback like other direct damage tract attacks (blackout/blackhammer)?

[RunnerPaul]

[DireRadiant]

[Lagomorph]

[Lagomorph]

[Rami]

System + armor to resist attack programs even as a technomancer. Sample technomancer character has armor complex form and armor description does not indicate it works differently (or doesn't work at all) as a complex form unlike say Medic or biofeedback filter. Plus its one of the few uses technomancers seem to have for System.

On main issue of whether system's limited by response, I doubt it. One of the choices for submersion is raising system up to 3 times. You can't do the same with response.

[M.Fillmore.1138]

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

It should go up as your character improves, yes.

[Lagomorph]

[Rami]

Nothing says otherwise so I don't see why resonance wouldn't still cap it. But immersion raises your effective Resonance by one so you'll rarely run into this problem. Personally, I think technomancer has better things to do than raise their effective system rating since it doesn't cap their complex form ratings like a hacker's system would cap program ratings.

[Ranneko]

No, immersion raises your max resonance by one, you still have to purchase the extra resonance seperately.

[Rami]

Righto, my mistake. I've been used to people raise their magic/resonance trait with each initiation/submersion.

[laughingowl]

As to submersion until later rules books come out....

My GM and me are treated them like 'magic/cyberware' bonues.

The natural stat is limited by resonance. Modified maxium is norma; *1.5.

So:

"that only raises another question though, is the System Increase Echo in Submersion also limited to the characters Resonance? If I have a Logic 7, Res 7 and take the System Echo, is the System 8? or still limited to 7 by Res?"

Resonance 7 Logic 7 Submersion 1 System Upgrade -1 would give your a system of 7 (8)

And Resonance 7 Logic 7 Submersion 3 System Upgrade 3 would give you a system of 7 (10)


While EXTREMELY unlikely you would ever do it:

Resonance 2 Logic 6 Submersion 3 System Upgrade 3 would give you a system rating of 2 (3) (the two additional system uprgrade 'wasted' since you are you modified cap. Now if when you raise your resonance to 3 it would be come System 3 (4 or 5 cant remember if you round up on limits) and if raised resonance to the maxium 9 it would be system 6 (natual is still 6) (9)

So the 'maximum' a human technomancer could have is:

Resonance 10 Submersion 4 Logic 7 (10)
Exptional Attribute (logic)
Increase Attribute-10 (logic) (3+hits)

Then Living Persona's System would be Logic (10) + System Upgrade (3) = 13.

Yes the above is very high but so is the karma cost. NOTE instead of 'magic' to increase logic, Cyber/bioware could be used, with corresponding extra submersion to offset the resonance lost.


The submersion echo seem to give bouses to the 'liviing person stats' NOT the mental stat that is used to calculate the living persona (within the resonance cap).

Rules arent clear either way, but if still bound by the 'cap' all of the submersion grades seems a little weak