Are there no native bilinguals in SR4?, Edge cost? Options

[ShadowDragon8685]

I was thinking. I know that some people are natively bilingual or even trilingual in real life, as a result of having grown up hearing both languages spoken fluently. So I was thinking, maybe it would be a 5 point edge each time to have multiple Native languages?


Justa quick thought.

[RunnerPaul]

I don't know if there are any bilinguals in Shadowrun, but there's at least a few bicosmics.

(And if you get the reference, you've been playing this game too long. I know I have.)

[Ice Hammer]

I came across this very problem myself. The way I handled this is (and this could be debated, obviously) is that I felt a person only has one native language, the language they grew up with and uses the most frequently. Sure, they may have been taught multiple languages growing up, but in my opinion, one of the languages would be more favored or used more than the other languages. Such as learning both spanish and english growing up, but being in a spanish speaking household, you might use your spanish language more than your english, and in which case, I would rule that spanish would be your native language, despite the fact that you might be very good with both languages. That is how I decided the issue in my game. I don't know if that would fit with other groups, but that's how I decided that issue.

[ShadowDragon8685]

That dosen't really fit, Ice Hammer. If you go to a household where the parents primarily speak Spanish, but the child is exposed to English all throughout their childhood, they are truely bilingual - they can speak each language as fluently as the other. It's even more true if the parents speak more than one language, and they hear both of those growing up.

[BishopMcQ]

Having grown up with people who are bi- and tri-lingual i can tell you that there were times when their understanding of linguistic differences between languages led to some complications in development. (One example being a dropped plural in English for friends who also speak Asian languages.)

As a positive quality, I'd give it a 3 pt build cost for Bi-lingual and 7 pts for Trilingual.

[Charon]

I don't think it's necessary.

A high rating in a language essentially means you are fluent, IMO. If a PC can muster over 8 dice for one language I almost never ask him to roll anyway.

Plus, people who grow up in a perfectly bilingual environment tend to have a (very) slight accent in both. Not easy to hear but it's there.

In SR effect, such people don't really have a N rating in 2 language, they have a rating of 6 in two language and a N in none. But usually, a language dominate. It's just not that common to be raised in a perfectly 50/50 scenario where language is concerned. Most 'bilingual' kid actually speak only one language at home and another one outside ; that still give a huge advantage to the tongue spoken at home during the formative years.

OTOH some people have an uncanny ability to learn many foreign language and (if they are really good) have no discernible accent in any. But this mostly means they are gifted, not that they were raised in a 5+ language environment (though it would help to discover and cultivate that gift). They are genius of language like some people are music or math genius.

So I think what's needed (and would be far more useful) is a linguist quality that reduce your language test threshold by 1.

[Cang]

Well this is my experience, everyones is different, but i moved to the US when i was 6 and grew up speaking Portuguese and English. I Speak Portuguese at home and English every where else and i have a much better hold on English. My sister, who moved with me when she was 15, is very good at both languages (gone to school and all) but she still has trouble sometimes with Portuguese. I think your Native Language should be the one you think in (We think in English, our parents in Portuguese) and which one you have a greater grasp on (vocabulary, grammar, ect.)

[Guest_MK Ultra_*]

I´d think simply picking the second language at lvl 6 should suffice, no?

[Butterblume]

I am not bilingual, but I sometimes catch me thinking in english (probably not in good english, though ;)).

I would give bilingual a cost of 5 points, and it can be taken two times, so one would be trilingual.

[Alyred]

I do have to say, I like the idea of the linguist quality that gives a -1 threshold for all language tests. As was posted earlier, I wouldn't have my characters roll if they can muster more than a certain number of dice (usually about 12, since they can just buy successes at that rate, and 3 is plenty in almost all situations that don't depend on more successes to indicate degree of success), and reducing the threshold from 4 (extreme difficulty) to 3 (hard) would mean anyone who has bought their skill up to 6 would mean effective fluency. Of course, all bets are off, still, when in extremely stressful or threatening situations... or when injured.

[Exodus]

From personal Expirience there really aren't people that are native in two languages. Those people are native in one (which is the language they think in) and are advanced in others. My Mother is Cuban for example she speaks Cuban very well but she thinks in English. Hence English is her native language and Spanish is a secondary language which she is fluent in (equal rating to her native.)

[Shrike30]

Some friends of mine from high school were raised bilingual. Their parents spoke both French and English, so one parent always spoke French at home, the other always spoke English. I don't speak any French, so I can't comment as to the quality of it (beyond saying that I never heard them stall or seek for a word when speaking to someone in French), but their English was flawless.

[PBTHHHHT]

If thinking in one language is a prerequisite for a native language, I know I've think in both english and chinese. I don't think that's the best indication. If both are at the same level, what's to say that they can't be bilingual or more?

I remember a college friend of mine, he was born in the US and stayed for several years in Japan with parents (who are missionaries), coming home every couple years until high school. English is his first language, BUT one time I was in his room chatting with his roommate and we hear muttering up in his loft. He was asleep and he was muttering in japanese.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I think that while we're getting mixxed signals, it seems that it's not too hard to accept some point value for taking another N or two on your sheet. I mean, it's not likely to come up unless your DM really plays up the angle of multiple languages. Unless the DM himself speaks more than one language, I don't think that's likely. :)

[Adept_Damo]

I agree with the sentiment that your native language is the one you think in all the time. But if someone is really adament about a character having two native languages, then the bp cost should be at least 12 because having a N is at least equal if not better than having a 6.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Except that as we have heard, some people - including ones who have posted here - think in more than one language. Thus by your words, they should have more than one N.

[HappyDaze]

However, since there is a 35BP cap on positive Qualities, I think that 5BP is a fine cost for an additional language rated at "N".

[Brahm]

[PBTHHHHT]

So basically, the argument that it's the language that one would think is their native language, while an interesting theory, does not account for irregularities presented. The anecdotal evidence provided so far is not a wide enough population sampling for me to give it more weight as the definition for what is one's native language.

[Brahm]

My wife has 3 native languages. Yugoslavian(Serbo/Croation), French, and English. Emmigrated to Montreal when she was 3. Both parents are solidly Yugo speakers, her mom nearly exclusively so even after 30 years. So home life never was English or French, still isn't when we visit. I have no damn idea what is going on. :dead: It's a great excuse not to talk to the mother-in-law, but pure hell when I have to because we haven't really a clue what each other is trying to say.

She learned English from television, initially primarily Seasame Street. Schooled in French from start till Grade 11. College and University in English. She has, so I'm told by others ;), effectively no apparent accent in any of these languages. As well she taught herself a Parisian accent to complement the Quebec accent, but that isn't really native. Just something she learned.

P.S. Since moving from Quebec about 10 years ago she has slowly lost the edge on her French since she rarely has an opportunity to speak it. So I suppose it is sort of borderline now. She did have a friend living here that she would talk to in French often, but the friend got married to another friend and they moved to North Carolina.

[PBTHHHHT]

So the argument that a person bumping up a language to 6 is wrong in terms of it being a native language unless they learned it when they were young along with the other language. I can buy that. Hell, I learned chinese but also learned english from sesame street and preschool.

I can understand how you feel Brahm about being in an environment with lots of different languages being thrown back and forth. Have you started to pick up any of it?

[Lagomorph]

I was under the (potentially false) assumption that an N language was just a free 6 points in one language, and that any other language you had at 6 was the same as N in terms of quality and understanding.

If N=6 then spending the points to get a 6 in a second language would be bilingual

If N=7 then a quality would make sense to allow a person an extra language at N to make it bilingueal

[Brahm]

[Brahm]

[PBTHHHHT]

I got the impression for N, that means that you never had to roll since it means the character know exactly what is being said including any possible nuances to the words being spoken.