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ShadowDragon8685
I was thinking. I know that some people are natively bilingual or even trilingual in real life, as a result of having grown up hearing both languages spoken fluently. So I was thinking, maybe it would be a 5 point edge each time to have multiple Native languages?


Justa quick thought.
RunnerPaul
I don't know if there are any bilinguals in Shadowrun, but there's at least a few bicosmics.

(And if you get the reference, you've been playing this game too long. I know I have.)
Ice Hammer
I came across this very problem myself. The way I handled this is (and this could be debated, obviously) is that I felt a person only has one native language, the language they grew up with and uses the most frequently. Sure, they may have been taught multiple languages growing up, but in my opinion, one of the languages would be more favored or used more than the other languages. Such as learning both spanish and english growing up, but being in a spanish speaking household, you might use your spanish language more than your english, and in which case, I would rule that spanish would be your native language, despite the fact that you might be very good with both languages. That is how I decided the issue in my game. I don't know if that would fit with other groups, but that's how I decided that issue.
ShadowDragon8685
That dosen't really fit, Ice Hammer. If you go to a household where the parents primarily speak Spanish, but the child is exposed to English all throughout their childhood, they are truely bilingual - they can speak each language as fluently as the other. It's even more true if the parents speak more than one language, and they hear both of those growing up.
BishopMcQ
Having grown up with people who are bi- and tri-lingual i can tell you that there were times when their understanding of linguistic differences between languages led to some complications in development. (One example being a dropped plural in English for friends who also speak Asian languages.)

As a positive quality, I'd give it a 3 pt build cost for Bi-lingual and 7 pts for Trilingual.
Charon
I don't think it's necessary.

A high rating in a language essentially means you are fluent, IMO. If a PC can muster over 8 dice for one language I almost never ask him to roll anyway.

Plus, people who grow up in a perfectly bilingual environment tend to have a (very) slight accent in both. Not easy to hear but it's there.

In SR effect, such people don't really have a N rating in 2 language, they have a rating of 6 in two language and a N in none. But usually, a language dominate. It's just not that common to be raised in a perfectly 50/50 scenario where language is concerned. Most 'bilingual' kid actually speak only one language at home and another one outside ; that still give a huge advantage to the tongue spoken at home during the formative years.

OTOH some people have an uncanny ability to learn many foreign language and (if they are really good) have no discernible accent in any. But this mostly means they are gifted, not that they were raised in a 5+ language environment (though it would help to discover and cultivate that gift). They are genius of language like some people are music or math genius.

So I think what's needed (and would be far more useful) is a linguist quality that reduce your language test threshold by 1.
Cang
Well this is my experience, everyones is different, but i moved to the US when i was 6 and grew up speaking Portuguese and English. I Speak Portuguese at home and English every where else and i have a much better hold on English. My sister, who moved with me when she was 15, is very good at both languages (gone to school and all) but she still has trouble sometimes with Portuguese. I think your Native Language should be the one you think in (We think in English, our parents in Portuguese) and which one you have a greater grasp on (vocabulary, grammar, ect.)
MK Ultra
IŽd think simply picking the second language at lvl 6 should suffice, no?
Butterblume
I am not bilingual, but I sometimes catch me thinking in english (probably not in good english, though wink.gif).

I would give bilingual a cost of 5 points, and it can be taken two times, so one would be trilingual.
Alyred
I do have to say, I like the idea of the linguist quality that gives a -1 threshold for all language tests. As was posted earlier, I wouldn't have my characters roll if they can muster more than a certain number of dice (usually about 12, since they can just buy successes at that rate, and 3 is plenty in almost all situations that don't depend on more successes to indicate degree of success), and reducing the threshold from 4 (extreme difficulty) to 3 (hard) would mean anyone who has bought their skill up to 6 would mean effective fluency. Of course, all bets are off, still, when in extremely stressful or threatening situations... or when injured.
Exodus
From personal Expirience there really aren't people that are native in two languages. Those people are native in one (which is the language they think in) and are advanced in others. My Mother is Cuban for example she speaks Cuban very well but she thinks in English. Hence English is her native language and Spanish is a secondary language which she is fluent in (equal rating to her native.)
Shrike30
Some friends of mine from high school were raised bilingual. Their parents spoke both French and English, so one parent always spoke French at home, the other always spoke English. I don't speak any French, so I can't comment as to the quality of it (beyond saying that I never heard them stall or seek for a word when speaking to someone in French), but their English was flawless.
PBTHHHHT
If thinking in one language is a prerequisite for a native language, I know I've think in both english and chinese. I don't think that's the best indication. If both are at the same level, what's to say that they can't be bilingual or more?

I remember a college friend of mine, he was born in the US and stayed for several years in Japan with parents (who are missionaries), coming home every couple years until high school. English is his first language, BUT one time I was in his room chatting with his roommate and we hear muttering up in his loft. He was asleep and he was muttering in japanese.
ShadowDragon8685
I think that while we're getting mixxed signals, it seems that it's not too hard to accept some point value for taking another N or two on your sheet. I mean, it's not likely to come up unless your DM really plays up the angle of multiple languages. Unless the DM himself speaks more than one language, I don't think that's likely. smile.gif
Adept_Damo
I agree with the sentiment that your native language is the one you think in all the time. But if someone is really adament about a character having two native languages, then the bp cost should be at least 12 because having a N is at least equal if not better than having a 6.
ShadowDragon8685
Except that as we have heard, some people - including ones who have posted here - think in more than one language. Thus by your words, they should have more than one N.
HappyDaze
However, since there is a 35BP cap on positive Qualities, I think that 5BP is a fine cost for an additional language rated at "N".
Brahm
QUOTE (Cang @ Aug 16 2006, 09:37 AM)
Well this is my experience, everyones is different, but i moved to the US when i was 6 and grew up speaking Portuguese and English. I Speak Portuguese at home and English every where else and i have a much better hold on English. My sister, who moved with me when she was 15, is very good at both languages (gone to school and all) but she still has trouble sometimes with Portuguese. I think your Native Language should be the one you think in (We think in English, our parents in Portuguese) and which one you have a greater grasp on (vocabulary, grammar, ect.)

If you don't think in a language then it isn't even close to native. It probably isn't even a rating 4 Skill. However there are people that think in multiple languages. My wife even dreams in one of three languages. Which is obviously thinking in the language, because the words don't exist outside her head.

She also does have a slight accent, although because it is French and Yugoslavian influenced at the same time even on the off chance you noticed it you wouldn't likely identify it unless you were a specialist in the field.

But then we ALL have accents. My pronounciation of "attic" just drives her crazy, in a bad way, with it's very slight "t" at the end. I never really noticed it till she pointed it out. It is actually some sort of local effect where I grew up because now I've noticed there are other people that do this and they are all from the same province where I grew up.
PBTHHHHT
So basically, the argument that it's the language that one would think is their native language, while an interesting theory, does not account for irregularities presented. The anecdotal evidence provided so far is not a wide enough population sampling for me to give it more weight as the definition for what is one's native language.
Brahm
My wife has 3 native languages. Yugoslavian(Serbo/Croation), French, and English. Emmigrated to Montreal when she was 3. Both parents are solidly Yugo speakers, her mom nearly exclusively so even after 30 years. So home life never was English or French, still isn't when we visit. I have no damn idea what is going on. dead.gif It's a great excuse not to talk to the mother-in-law, but pure hell when I have to because we haven't really a clue what each other is trying to say.

She learned English from television, initially primarily Seasame Street. Schooled in French from start till Grade 11. College and University in English. She has, so I'm told by others wink.gif, effectively no apparent accent in any of these languages. As well she taught herself a Parisian accent to complement the Quebec accent, but that isn't really native. Just something she learned.

P.S. Since moving from Quebec about 10 years ago she has slowly lost the edge on her French since she rarely has an opportunity to speak it. So I suppose it is sort of borderline now. She did have a friend living here that she would talk to in French often, but the friend got married to another friend and they moved to North Carolina.
PBTHHHHT
So the argument that a person bumping up a language to 6 is wrong in terms of it being a native language unless they learned it when they were young along with the other language. I can buy that. Hell, I learned chinese but also learned english from sesame street and preschool.

I can understand how you feel Brahm about being in an environment with lots of different languages being thrown back and forth. Have you started to pick up any of it?
Lagomorph
I was under the (potentially false) assumption that an N language was just a free 6 points in one language, and that any other language you had at 6 was the same as N in terms of quality and understanding.

If N=6 then spending the points to get a 6 in a second language would be bilingual

If N=7 then a quality would make sense to allow a person an extra language at N to make it bilingueal
Brahm
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT @ Aug 16 2006, 05:17 PM)
Have you started to pick up any of it?

I stick to fighting a daily battle with my old nemesis, English. wink.gif Languages simply aren't my thing. Of the tiny handful of words I do know in Yugo they have only gotten me into a heap of embarrasing trouble. Word to the wise, if you are introducing someone to a language don't do it by saying X means this, Y sounds a lot like X but it's a naughty word. Because eventually Y will be inadventently substituted for X. embarrassed.gif

On the other hand my 4 year-old son that spent 5 days a week being looked after by his grandmother for a little over a year when he was younger understands and speaks more conversational Yugo than me. Including, in the correct context, telling his grandmother off. Which of course he learned from his grandmother telling his grandfather off.
Brahm
QUOTE (Lagomorph @ Aug 16 2006, 05:43 PM)
I was under the (potentially false) assumption that an N language was just a free 6 points in one language, and that any other language you had at 6 was the same as N in terms of quality and understanding.

If N=6 then spending the points to get a 6 in a second language would be bilingual

If N=7 then a quality would make sense to allow a person an extra language at N to make it bilingueal

N means never having to make a test. I'm assuming, but can't point to specific rules, that the language never limits the number of dice you can use of another Skill when speaking that language. Right now an N language appears to be the only way that a character can use more than 6 Skill dice for a verbal social Skill.
PBTHHHHT
I got the impression for N, that means that you never had to roll since it means the character know exactly what is being said including any possible nuances to the words being spoken.
ethinos
Character "Tongues" has English N, Spanish 6, and Negotiate 7 (maxed with a quality.)

Anytime Tongues converses in Spanish, the GM has the ability to have him make a skill test to check his comprehension. The more obscure the conversation (rocket science for example) the higher the threshold. So, there is always a chance he could misinterpret something. Plus he's still limited to only using 6 of those Negotiation points in a skill test. English being a native language has none of these disadvantages. And I haven't even gotten to adept abilities or cyber/bioware that can increase your abilities with charisma linked social skills. Non-native languages will always have caps.

A language skill of N is probably more likely a 7 at the very least, which equates to 14BP. So, 15 BP might be a more realistic cost for a second or third native language. That's a hefty cost, but being perfectly fluent would be a serious advantage for a face or other social critter.
hobgoblin
on the topic of only thinking in your native language, i must confess that i have the bad habbit of speaking to myself at times.
and often i do so in english.
often i recall the english word for something before i recall the norwegian (my native language) word for it.

and lately i have found myself picking up the odd german word. but i guess thats because many of them are spoken like the equivalent norwegian. reading it on the other hand...
Brahm
QUOTE (ethinos @ Aug 16 2006, 06:06 PM)
A language skill of N is probably more likely a 7 at the very least, which equates to 14BP. So, 15 BP might be a more realistic cost for a second or third native language. That's a hefty cost, but being perfectly fluent would be a serious advantage for a face or other social critter.

Ya, I didn't get to that part but I agree that the cost of an extra 'N' is at least a 5 and maybe even a 10. I didn't think Qualities came in non-five denominations?

By my guestimate I would say 5BP, because taking a 6 normally costs 6BP. But it is 6BP that can come out of the bonus Build Points. This Qualtiy is something that must come out of the 'real' BP, and is also counts towards the character's Positive Qualities limit. No way I'd ever take it at 10 BP, but I might consider it at 5 BP for the right character. Which is usually the standard I consider for cost; WWBD. biggrin.gif
PBTHHHHT
Hmmm... reading from ethinos' posting, a non-native language will always have caps. I can't agree with that in my game (yeah, so it's an impass there), but I just have to disagree that a person cannot learn a language as well as his native language. If you look at the definition from the linky provided by Brahm, it says that a native language does not mean it is always the dominant language. In viewing that and from the immersion situation, eg. a person emigrating to the US from a non-english speaking country, they soon develop their english language skills like a native speaker. Some may or may not retain their language skills from the previous country. YMMV.
ethinos
Knowledge skills (and languages) cost 2BP per skill point. So Spanish 6 would cost 12 build points. Also, all qualities in the core book are in increments of 5.

Edited: Because my typing sucks.
Brahm
QUOTE (ethinos @ Aug 16 2006, 06:22 PM)
Knowledge skills (and languages) cost 2BP per skill point. So Spanish 6 would cost 12 skill points.

Oh right. 1 Karma * level, or 2 BP. So then cost is 10 BP of 'real' BP, which likely means I'd never actually take it. Ever. For any character. smile.gif

P.S. Come to think I often don't keep that cost straight because I'd rather see 1 BP per Language Point and Knowledge Point too. IMO it's nice to see characters with a wide spread of knowledge skills and a smattering of languages, because then they can toss stuff into those oddball catagories that seem to give the characters depth.
ethinos
I said 15 BP for the quality because the highest rating you can take for a non-native skill would be 7 (with the Aptitude quality). This would cost 14 Build Points. So 15 BP for a quality to add an extra native language isn't unrealistic.

Edited to add:
Plus if you have a face that just HAS to be equally effective in more than one language would probably take the quality. One that spends significant amounts of time in Seattle and Japan or Germany for example.
Lagomorph
hm, I'd say for 5 points as a quality, you can take any language that you've raised to 6 and turn it into an N, that way you're spending 5 points to turn 6's to N's but you have to have spent the 6 points already.
PBTHHHHT
But is that only during character generation? I think I missed a step somewhere. I'm curious if you can buy that later on as your character develops, such as a language immersion by living in a new country, or a immersive AR program to be developed (hell, if one can live through a fantasy AR program, why not one for language/culture?).
ethinos
Ethino's Langauge House Rule #1:

Native language positive quality 15 BP:
-Adds one additional native language at rating N. (Duh.) Can be taken a second time.


Ethino's Language House Rule #2:

Languages come in ratings of 1-6.

In order to raise 6 to N, one must spend double the amount of Karma of what 7 would've been. So, in practice going from 6 to N costs 14 Karma.

How's that?

Edited to add: Otherwise, the book says you CAN acquire another positive quality (GM approved of course) at 2xCost. (Or 30 Karma with this method.)
Brahm
@PBTHHHHT

Once it is a Quality, unless it explicitly has text barring it, it is more or less available during play by paying double the BP in karma.

@ ethinos

It only costs 22 Karma to bring it up to 6 during play. At a 10 BP cost it'll take 20 Karma extra during play no matter what you level was, plus whatever ingame effort appropriate.

I am disregarding Aptitute since you can only take it once per character. Taking that tact you'd have to take into account the extra 10 BP for the Aptitude, which would put it out to the 25 BP range. Doing so would effectively make it pointless to even offer the Quality as an option.

EDIT See, same thing with your last post. Priced way beyond it's usefulness.
ethinos
Where are you getting 10BP from?
Brahm
Where are you getting 15BP from? nyahnyah.gif
ethinos
Are you saying that you can buy a quality for 10 BP to instantly become native in any language, when it costs 12 BP to become level 6 in a language?

Thus, what is 10 BP for? I'm tired. I'm working (sshhh don't tell anyone!).
Brahm
Summing up my points again:
- During character creation that 10 BP counts against a limit the 35 BP Qualities, giving it higher weight than just 10 BP.
- You also are spending 'real' BP instead of likely the bonus BP.
- Knowledge and Language skills are peripheral skills. Having someone good in one of these skills isn't likely to be in any way some sort of game breaking ability. If anything it helps broaden the characters and gives more options during play.
- Pricing it so high tends to send out the message "I don't really want you to do this, so piss off." If that is the intention then why bother taking the time to put it in?

EDIT But as I also mentioned I'm a bit biased as I see starting prices for Knowledge and Language skills higher than I'd like to see to start with. So, you know, it is just my opinion and all. cyber.gif
ethinos
Hmm. Ok. I understand your view points. I'll have to think about it a bit to see if I agree with all of them.

However, I do think languages have the opportunity to play a bigger part in roleplaying than other knowledge skills. A gm creating a Japan story arc would bring Japanese into the light as a very potent skill. Any of the major languages could be very, very useful: English, Spanish, Japanese, Chinese, Arabic, Elven, etc.

Only those runners who are permanently stuck in Seattle or any other situation where second languages are near useless would warrant a lower BP cost for it as a quality.
HappyDaze
You can slot at rating 5 linguasoft through your commlink as long as you have a sim module (doesn't everybody?) and then hook up with a trode rig - now you have AR subtitles or dubbing - user's choice. This can all be purchased for far less than 5BP/25,000 nuyen.gif. Languages are really just fluff for prepared runners. Having an extra N language (or even a few more) really isn't a big deal for most situations.
Conskill
BPs being spent on languages are BPs that aren't being spent on guns, cyber, magic, and hookers.

Given that Shadowrun is a game largely based on guns, cyber, magic, and hookers, I'm more than willing to give them an N language for 5 BP, even if that's dirt cheap compared to the theoretical value of the skill. If I absolutely must have an NPC be utterly incomprehensible to the PCs, he can always just speak Swahili instead of Spanish.
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