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> Where's the SR3 Love?, Welcome to the Shadows of SR4?
Sicarius
post Aug 17 2006, 12:32 PM
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This is NOT an attempt to revive old flame wars. When I first join Dumpshock it was in the height of the SR3-SR4 discussions. And the mix between those staying with SR3 and those switching to SR4 were about equal. I myself stuck with SR3 because I had just recently purchased it, and several other rulebooks just prior to the switch over (amongst other reasons). But I've noticed that Dumpshock's PbP has see a increasing number of SR4 games being hosted, but almost no SR3 games. (I'm doing my part BTW.) Why might this be? are SR3 gamers' more established with hometown games so they don't need the post? Are the ones who stuck with SR3 more at Dumpshock for the rules debates, canon discussions and dropbear talk? It's just something that's been puzzling me ,so i figured I'd throw it out there.

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nezumi
post Aug 17 2006, 02:20 PM
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I run my SR3 games on sites made for running games. Forums just aren't my thing. But since I never considered running it on a forum, I don't know if I'm really your intended audience for this post.
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eidolon
post Aug 17 2006, 02:38 PM
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Well, as far as it goes with me, I'm more interested in gaming with a physical group.

I wouldn't mind a pbp I guess, but right now I'm living in the boonies while I look for a place in the city, and so there's only dial-up, and it's all I can bear to check my email once a week. (I'm typing this at work, and I don't think I'd want to try to fit in a full on pbp game while I'm here. ;))

In the near future, a bunch of guys from two of my old groups are planning on running a SR game on ventrillo.
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toturi
post Aug 17 2006, 03:01 PM
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I see it mainly as an attempt by people to try out the new rules. Heck, if there are people like you who bought the rulebooks at the end of the edition, there would be people who are just trying things out the first time.

That said, if you want a SR3 game, I might (just might) start one up later this year.
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Lindt
post Aug 17 2006, 04:31 PM
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Sadly Sic, Sr4 has been out just about a year now, and with the release of SM (I assume thats the new abriv. for Street Magic?) one of my biggest gripes with 4E is being adressed. I STILL dont like it, but at least I dont desipse it any more.

Im still a huge Sr3 fan, but lets look at the facts, its been replaced.
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Kyoto Kid
post Aug 17 2006, 04:42 PM
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QUOTE (toturi)

That said, if you want a SR3 game, I might (just might) start one up later this year.

...I will be running a second playtest of my Rhapsody arc this September which is set in SR3.

I was considering setting it up for submission to Fanpro last summer when I learned that SR4 was in the works. It does not fit in the new timeline (having taken place shortly after Wake of the Comet), and the switch to the wireless matrix just does not work well with the plotline.
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eidolon
post Aug 17 2006, 05:40 PM
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QUOTE (Lindt)
Im still a huge Sr3 fan, but lets look at the facts, its been replaced.

No, a new edition has been created. Support for SR3 has been ceased, and support for SR4 put into action.

There's a huge difference between that and replacement. Nothing from 4 will ever "replace" anything from 3 as far as I'm concerned.
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Sicarius
post Aug 17 2006, 07:35 PM
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By way of metaphor. I drive a '93 camry handed down from my mother to my brother to me. So perhaps its just my nature to stick with the tried and true, even if the newest model is a good car too. I guess its only a matter of time before I can't find parts for it.
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James McMurray
post Aug 17 2006, 07:49 PM
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RPOL,net's shadowrun community is small. I didn't check all the games out, but there's at least 2 SR3 games and one SR4 game.

If you're looking to run an online game rpol is a great place for it.
  • They've got a built in die roller that stores the rolles and allows GMs to make secret rolls.
  • There's a fully functional PM system
  • each character name has a place for a picture, a bio, a description, and a character sheet
  • Each player can have any number of characters
  • posts are made in the character's name, not the player's, so people don't even need to know who is a PC and who is an NPC if you don't want them to
  • It has support for different groups, so if the party splits up you can run them both without anyone seeing what the other side is doing.
  • Post can have private lines within them so that you can ask OOC questions without cluttering the IC threads.
  • Each player has a builtin scratchpad for taking notes with. It's a seemingly innocuous feature that was just recenetly implemented and I haven't been able to live without since.

In case you hadn't noticed, I really like rpol's setup. :) It's a very professionally done site that is completely free. Eventually they will be adding in a pay system, but it will be optional. None of the current free features will go away, you'll just be given the option to donate to them and get some perks out of it (usually shiny new features that are available to your games).
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SL James
post Aug 17 2006, 09:47 PM
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Because I already have a PbP place.
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LilithTaveril
post Aug 17 2006, 09:48 PM
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I play both systems. For example, my Lilith Taveril character cannot be translated to SR4. She's a person with enough strength to pick up and toss a semi at people, and she's actually done it before. And with the game we're playing, that's a requirement at this point. The game cannot be translated to the SR4 system without losing the feel of it.

When I want to play a game where the characters can be more than runners on the street, I don't play SR4.
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SuperFly
post Aug 17 2006, 09:53 PM
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Erm...I've got mad love for SR3, but not because it can be abused and used to munch out. I love SR3 because everything before YotC was very good, and SR4 has lost the cyberpunk feel.
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James McMurray
post Aug 17 2006, 09:54 PM
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Why not just remove the stat and skill caps?
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SL James
post Aug 17 2006, 10:00 PM
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Excuse me. Wrong answer on my part.

Because the Fixed TN mechanic breaks down at higher or lower intervals. Once you get above a dice pool of 30, you're almost always assured of massive success unless facing an equally high dice pool.

That's why adepts can be so awful in SR4 that a Dodge-specific adept can be made that will never be hit. Ever.
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Wounded Ronin
post Aug 17 2006, 10:04 PM
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I'd be relieved to be able to play some SR3 so that I actually know the rules.
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James McMurray
post Aug 17 2006, 10:08 PM
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QUOTE (SL James)
Excuse me. Wrong answer on my part.

Because the Fixed TN mechanic breaks down at higher or lower intervals. Once you get above a dice pool of 30, you're almost always assured of massive success unless facing an equally high dice pool.

If you're a super badass (30+ dice) and you're not trying something super difficult (high threshold and/or dice penalties) then you should be almost assured of success. That's all I'll say on it in this topic though, since it's all been discussed before and some folks just don't like the fixed dice system (which is cool).
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SL James
post Aug 17 2006, 10:17 PM
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Even at a high threshold they still are statistically assured of a success as long as they have a net pool of 3 or 4 dice, which happens more often when they have a larger pool to start off with. If someone has a dice pool of 33 to fire a rifle, then firing at Extreme Range (-3) while in melee (-3) against a blind fire target (-6) using his offhand (-2) in full darkness (-6) while wounded (-6, for phys and stun) he'd still get three successes on average every time he pulled the trigger (well, 2 after the first shot because of recoil assuming no recoil comp). That's more impressive than trying to make a similar shot in SR3 even with dice in the teens. It just breaks down easily. But, yeah. The statistics have been beaten to death on SR4. Just saying that while I abhor caps, eliminating them is far from a cure-all.
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James McMurray
post Aug 17 2006, 10:23 PM
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I see someone with 33 dice as being just barely below God when firing their weapon. IMO they should be able to make that shot (assuming they know where to aim, as I won't let you just say "blind fire" and hit someone you have no idea of the position for). That's liek saying you're twice as agile as the world's most agile unaugmented elf elf (14 agility), and you've got the shooting skill that's 3 times better than the best normal sniper on the planet (18 dice). That guy ought to be able to Golgo 13 a shot. Just my opinion though. :)
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LilithTaveril
post Aug 17 2006, 10:28 PM
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QUOTE (James McMurray)
Why not just remove the stat and skill caps?

In addition to what SL James said, there's also the fact the entire system is geared around the fixed-dice system. Spellcasting, learning spells, getting magic, all skills, acquiring weapons, etc. Once you get above 24 dice, the entire SR4 system just falls apart.

But, yeah, pretty much my group doesn't have time to spend trying to fix the system when we have one that already works.
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Sicarius
post Aug 17 2006, 10:31 PM
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Oh what have I done!!!
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LilithTaveril
post Aug 17 2006, 10:35 PM
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Hey, I play SR4. I love the system. It works perfectly fine for the type of game I play under it. I'm not going to bash the system and say it sucks just because I can't play a character who can bench-press tanks with one pinky while being crotchkicked by Lofwyr under it.
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SL James
post Aug 17 2006, 11:17 PM
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QUOTE (James McMurray @ Aug 17 2006, 04:23 PM)
I see someone with 33 dice as being just barely below God when firing their weapon. IMO they should be able to make that shot (assuming they know where to aim, as I won't let you just say "blind fire" and hit someone you have no idea of the position for). That's liek saying you're twice as agile as the world's most agile unaugmented elf elf (14 agility), and you've got the shooting skill that's 3 times better than the best normal sniper on the planet (18 dice). That guy ought to be able to Golgo 13 a shot. Just my opinion though. :)

Actually, it just makes 6 as utterly not badass as it is in SR3. And I used 33 because I've seen PCs who would have that dice pool if translated directly from earlier editions to SR4 on a one-to-one basis.

To account for that, you'd have to make the dice mods higher, but then it screws people with less dice in order to make it as hard in SR4 as such a shot would be in SR3 (TN around 35, IIRC offhand).
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SuperFly
post Aug 17 2006, 11:33 PM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
I'd be relieved to be able to play some SR3 so that I actually know the rules.

Hey, the #S-Run community plays about 75% SR3, with about 25% playing SR4.
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James McMurray
post Aug 17 2006, 11:35 PM
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Cool. Like I said, we disagree. But just because I don't see any signs in this forum saying No SR3 vs. SR4 arguments doesn't mean I want to start one. I've save those for the folks that come into the SR4 forum and bitch about the game whose forum they're posting on. ;)
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Kyoto Kid
post Aug 18 2006, 03:28 PM
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...my reluctance to shift to SR4 at this time mainly centres around the lack of source material beyond the core rules. I have participated in and ran a number of "one shot" missions (as well as being involved in On the Run), but have no plans to open an campaign using SR4 until most of the other source books are available (which by the way things have been going with releases will be at least another year, maybe two).

With SR3, everything I need to develop a new campaign is already out there. After my second run through of "Rhapsody" (as mentioned above) is completed, I have another campaign planned which takes place before Crash 2.0.
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