This is NOT an attempt to revive old flame wars. When I first join Dumpshock it was in the height of the SR3-SR4 discussions. And the mix between those staying with SR3 and those switching to SR4 were about equal. I myself stuck with SR3 because I had just recently purchased it, and several other rulebooks just prior to the switch over (amongst other reasons). But I've noticed that Dumpshock's PbP has see a increasing number of SR4 games being hosted, but almost no SR3 games. (I'm doing my part BTW.) Why might this be? are SR3 gamers' more established with hometown games so they don't need the post? Are the ones who stuck with SR3 more at Dumpshock for the rules debates, canon discussions and dropbear talk? It's just something that's been puzzling me ,so i figured I'd throw it out there.
Full Version: Where's the SR3 Love?
I run my SR3 games on sites made for running games. Forums just aren't my thing. But since I never considered running it on a forum, I don't know if I'm really your intended audience for this post.
Well, as far as it goes with me, I'm more interested in gaming with a physical group.
I wouldn't mind a pbp I guess, but right now I'm living in the boonies while I look for a place in the city, and so there's only dial-up, and it's all I can bear to check my email once a week. (I'm typing this at work, and I don't think I'd want to try to fit in a full on pbp game while I'm here.
)
In the near future, a bunch of guys from two of my old groups are planning on running a SR game on ventrillo.
I wouldn't mind a pbp I guess, but right now I'm living in the boonies while I look for a place in the city, and so there's only dial-up, and it's all I can bear to check my email once a week. (I'm typing this at work, and I don't think I'd want to try to fit in a full on pbp game while I'm here.
)In the near future, a bunch of guys from two of my old groups are planning on running a SR game on ventrillo.
I see it mainly as an attempt by people to try out the new rules. Heck, if there are people like you who bought the rulebooks at the end of the edition, there would be people who are just trying things out the first time.
That said, if you want a SR3 game, I might (just might) start one up later this year.
That said, if you want a SR3 game, I might (just might) start one up later this year.
Sadly Sic, Sr4 has been out just about a year now, and with the release of SM (I assume thats the new abriv. for Street Magic?) one of my biggest gripes with 4E is being adressed. I STILL dont like it, but at least I dont desipse it any more.
Im still a huge Sr3 fan, but lets look at the facts, its been replaced.
Im still a huge Sr3 fan, but lets look at the facts, its been replaced.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
That said, if you want a SR3 game, I might (just might) start one up later this year. |
...I will be running a second playtest of my Rhapsody arc this September which is set in SR3.
I was considering setting it up for submission to Fanpro last summer when I learned that SR4 was in the works. It does not fit in the new timeline (having taken place shortly after Wake of the Comet), and the switch to the wireless matrix just does not work well with the plotline.
| QUOTE (Lindt) |
| Im still a huge Sr3 fan, but lets look at the facts, its been replaced. |
No, a new edition has been created. Support for SR3 has been ceased, and support for SR4 put into action.
There's a huge difference between that and replacement. Nothing from 4 will ever "replace" anything from 3 as far as I'm concerned.
By way of metaphor. I drive a '93 camry handed down from my mother to my brother to me. So perhaps its just my nature to stick with the tried and true, even if the newest model is a good car too. I guess its only a matter of time before I can't find parts for it.
RPOL,net's shadowrun community is small. I didn't check all the games out, but there's at least 2 SR3 games and one SR4 game.
If you're looking to run an online game rpol is a great place for it.
In case you hadn't noticed, I really like rpol's setup.
It's a very professionally done site that is completely free. Eventually they will be adding in a pay system, but it will be optional. None of the current free features will go away, you'll just be given the option to donate to them and get some perks out of it (usually shiny new features that are available to your games).
If you're looking to run an online game rpol is a great place for it.
- They've got a built in die roller that stores the rolles and allows GMs to make secret rolls.
- There's a fully functional PM system
- each character name has a place for a picture, a bio, a description, and a character sheet
- Each player can have any number of characters
- posts are made in the character's name, not the player's, so people don't even need to know who is a PC and who is an NPC if you don't want them to
- It has support for different groups, so if the party splits up you can run them both without anyone seeing what the other side is doing.
- Post can have private lines within them so that you can ask OOC questions without cluttering the IC threads.
- Each player has a builtin scratchpad for taking notes with. It's a seemingly innocuous feature that was just recenetly implemented and I haven't been able to live without since.
In case you hadn't noticed, I really like rpol's setup.
It's a very professionally done site that is completely free. Eventually they will be adding in a pay system, but it will be optional. None of the current free features will go away, you'll just be given the option to donate to them and get some perks out of it (usually shiny new features that are available to your games).
Because I already have a PbP place.
I play both systems. For example, my Lilith Taveril character cannot be translated to SR4. She's a person with enough strength to pick up and toss a semi at people, and she's actually done it before. And with the game we're playing, that's a requirement at this point. The game cannot be translated to the SR4 system without losing the feel of it.
When I want to play a game where the characters can be more than runners on the street, I don't play SR4.
When I want to play a game where the characters can be more than runners on the street, I don't play SR4.
Erm...I've got mad love for SR3, but not because it can be abused and used to munch out. I love SR3 because everything before YotC was very good, and SR4 has lost the cyberpunk feel.
Why not just remove the stat and skill caps?
Excuse me. Wrong answer on my part.
Because the Fixed TN mechanic breaks down at higher or lower intervals. Once you get above a dice pool of 30, you're almost always assured of massive success unless facing an equally high dice pool.
That's why adepts can be so awful in SR4 that a Dodge-specific adept can be made that will never be hit. Ever.
Because the Fixed TN mechanic breaks down at higher or lower intervals. Once you get above a dice pool of 30, you're almost always assured of massive success unless facing an equally high dice pool.
That's why adepts can be so awful in SR4 that a Dodge-specific adept can be made that will never be hit. Ever.
I'd be relieved to be able to play some SR3 so that I actually know the rules.
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| Excuse me. Wrong answer on my part. Because the Fixed TN mechanic breaks down at higher or lower intervals. Once you get above a dice pool of 30, you're almost always assured of massive success unless facing an equally high dice pool. |
If you're a super badass (30+ dice) and you're not trying something super difficult (high threshold and/or dice penalties) then you should be almost assured of success. That's all I'll say on it in this topic though, since it's all been discussed before and some folks just don't like the fixed dice system (which is cool).
Even at a high threshold they still are statistically assured of a success as long as they have a net pool of 3 or 4 dice, which happens more often when they have a larger pool to start off with. If someone has a dice pool of 33 to fire a rifle, then firing at Extreme Range (-3) while in melee (-3) against a blind fire target (-6) using his offhand (-2) in full darkness (-6) while wounded (-6, for phys and stun) he'd still get three successes on average every time he pulled the trigger (well, 2 after the first shot because of recoil assuming no recoil comp). That's more impressive than trying to make a similar shot in SR3 even with dice in the teens. It just breaks down easily. But, yeah. The statistics have been beaten to death on SR4. Just saying that while I abhor caps, eliminating them is far from a cure-all.
I see someone with 33 dice as being just barely below God when firing their weapon. IMO they should be able to make that shot (assuming they know where to aim, as I won't let you just say "blind fire" and hit someone you have no idea of the position for). That's liek saying you're twice as agile as the world's most agile unaugmented elf elf (14 agility), and you've got the shooting skill that's 3 times better than the best normal sniper on the planet (18 dice). That guy ought to be able to Golgo 13 a shot. Just my opinion though.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| Why not just remove the stat and skill caps? |
In addition to what SL James said, there's also the fact the entire system is geared around the fixed-dice system. Spellcasting, learning spells, getting magic, all skills, acquiring weapons, etc. Once you get above 24 dice, the entire SR4 system just falls apart.
But, yeah, pretty much my group doesn't have time to spend trying to fix the system when we have one that already works.
Oh what have I done!!!
Hey, I play SR4. I love the system. It works perfectly fine for the type of game I play under it. I'm not going to bash the system and say it sucks just because I can't play a character who can bench-press tanks with one pinky while being crotchkicked by Lofwyr under it.
| QUOTE (James McMurray @ Aug 17 2006, 04:23 PM) |
| I see someone with 33 dice as being just barely below God when firing their weapon. IMO they should be able to make that shot (assuming they know where to aim, as I won't let you just say "blind fire" and hit someone you have no idea of the position for). That's liek saying you're twice as agile as the world's most agile unaugmented elf elf (14 agility), and you've got the shooting skill that's 3 times better than the best normal sniper on the planet (18 dice). That guy ought to be able to Golgo 13 a shot. Just my opinion though. |
Actually, it just makes 6 as utterly not badass as it is in SR3. And I used 33 because I've seen PCs who would have that dice pool if translated directly from earlier editions to SR4 on a one-to-one basis.
To account for that, you'd have to make the dice mods higher, but then it screws people with less dice in order to make it as hard in SR4 as such a shot would be in SR3 (TN around 35, IIRC offhand).
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| I'd be relieved to be able to play some SR3 so that I actually know the rules. |
Hey, the #S-Run community plays about 75% SR3, with about 25% playing SR4.
Cool. Like I said, we disagree. But just because I don't see any signs in this forum saying No SR3 vs. SR4 arguments doesn't mean I want to start one. I've save those for the folks that come into the SR4 forum and bitch about the game whose forum they're posting on.
...my reluctance to shift to SR4 at this time mainly centres around the lack of source material beyond the core rules. I have participated in and ran a number of "one shot" missions (as well as being involved in On the Run), but have no plans to open an campaign using SR4 until most of the other source books are available (which by the way things have been going with releases will be at least another year, maybe two).
With SR3, everything I need to develop a new campaign is already out there. After my second run through of "Rhapsody" (as mentioned above) is completed, I have another campaign planned which takes place before Crash 2.0.
With SR3, everything I need to develop a new campaign is already out there. After my second run through of "Rhapsody" (as mentioned above) is completed, I have another campaign planned which takes place before Crash 2.0.
I don't want to discuss the merits and problems of fixed vs. variable target numbers, since that's already been done to death and didn't resolve anything except make each camp more entrenched in their own positions. And it might get the thread locked.
But I'm curious: how do you get 33 dice to shoot in SR4 canon? How many karma does it take, and how do you bypass the skill and attribute caps?
But I'm curious: how do you get 33 dice to shoot in SR4 canon? How many karma does it take, and how do you bypass the skill and attribute caps?
Like I said:
| QUOTE |
| And I used 33 because I've seen PCs who would have that dice pool if translated directly from earlier editions to SR4 on a one-to-one basis. |
Was it just a "you've got 16 pistols and 17 agility" conversion, without regard to the changed ruleset?
Yes. Assuming no caps whatsoever. Hence my point about how eliminating them is not a cure-all.
Ummm... There's part of your problem. The importance of ability scores and skills has changed dramatically. Someone with a 17 agility in SR3 would not have a 17 in SR4. Giving it to them would grossly overpower the conversion.
There are other things that have changed as well. Doing a strict number-by-number conversion of any character from SR3 to SR4 is probably going to cause problems.
There are other things that have changed as well. Doing a strict number-by-number conversion of any character from SR3 to SR4 is probably going to cause problems.
McMurray, for pete's sake. you asked "why not just remove the stat and skill caps?", and SL James has answered you: because it'd be horribly broken. the importance of ability scores and skills is the whole point of what he's saying. you can't say "remove the stat and skill caps" and then, when someone points out the problems, say "well duh, you removed the stat and skill caps!"
i mean, you can. it's just silly.
i mean, you can. it's just silly.
Yeah, what's your point? We've moved on to another topic, namely conversions and how doing straight numeric conversions doesn't work. I never disagreed that having really high pools made things really easy. I disagreed that easy = horribly broken, then we moved on.
Maybe you'd like to catch up with us? If so, start at Apathy's post at the top of this page and read from there. We're effectively in a different discussion altogether.
Maybe you'd like to catch up with us? If so, start at Apathy's post at the top of this page and read from there. We're effectively in a different discussion altogether.
no, we're not. look at SL James' most recent post. and look at your most recent post--"there's part of your problem." what problem? oh! removing stat and skill caps.
If a character is translated number for number the differences between the two systems become drastically more pronounced, because attributes post-conversion should be lower than attributes pre-conversion. He's absolutely right that just removing the skill and attribute caps doesn't work, you have to actually do more during your conversion process than cut and paste.
right. that's the point he was trying to get across.
Ok. So why are you even here?
He says "you have to do more than remove the caps."
I say "yeah, you have to do X and Y."
Your role has apparently just been to poke your head in a say nothing of any importance. Did you have something to actually give to the thread, or were you just looking for an argument?
He says "you have to do more than remove the caps."
I say "yeah, you have to do X and Y."
Your role has apparently just been to poke your head in a say nothing of any importance. Did you have something to actually give to the thread, or were you just looking for an argument?
edit: nevermind. whatever.
Umm... Perhaps you missed where he gave an example found by using conversions? That's what was being responded to by me and questioned by Apathy.
The conversation moved on from where you seem to think it is. Nobody is trying to refute any points made in earlier posts. The thread of the topic, since Apathy's question has been:
Apathy: where'd the numbers come from?
SL James: straight conversion
Me: you can't do a straight conversion
You seem to think that my posts are an attempt to disprove SL James's post about not being able to simply remove the caps. They're not, and they're only tangentially related to that post in that they're referencing the example dice pool he gave.
The conversation moved on from where you seem to think it is. Nobody is trying to refute any points made in earlier posts. The thread of the topic, since Apathy's question has been:
Apathy: where'd the numbers come from?
SL James: straight conversion
Me: you can't do a straight conversion
You seem to think that my posts are an attempt to disprove SL James's post about not being able to simply remove the caps. They're not, and they're only tangentially related to that post in that they're referencing the example dice pool he gave.
I've said my piece. It's over.
| QUOTE (Sicarius @ Aug 17 2006, 06:32 AM) |
| This is NOT an attempt to revive old flame wars. When I first join Dumpshock it was in the height of the SR3-SR4 discussions. And the mix between those staying with SR3 and those switching to SR4 were about equal. I myself stuck with SR3 because I had just recently purchased it, and several other rulebooks just prior to the switch over (amongst other reasons). But I've noticed that Dumpshock's PbP has see a increasing number of SR4 games being hosted, but almost no SR3 games. (I'm doing my part BTW.) Why might this be? are SR3 gamers' more established with hometown games so they don't need the post? Are the ones who stuck with SR3 more at Dumpshock for the rules debates, canon discussions and dropbear talk? It's just something that's been puzzling me ,so i figured I'd throw it out there. |
Maybe because the old SR3 players have quit participating on Dumpshock?
The game they like is stagnant, all the problems have been hashed out and if you didn't get a solution you liked, it is too bad because there is not going to be an update or clarification coming. (I almost wonder if one of the last errata and FAQ updates that made so little sense when they came out were FanPro stirring up problems with SR3 so that SR4 would be more acceptable.)
Back to DS and SR3 players, it seems like the static level went up in the last year. Most of the posts in the "SR3" forum were edition independent, conversational but relating to no specific edition, or post pumpingly bothersome.
The face of DS has changed. The daily high posters contain names I used to dislike or now make my skin crawl. It used to be you new something about a posters game style. Doc Funkenstien et al, Laughlin, Bitbasher, Sphynx, etc.. Now you just know a poster as a raging ball of hate like SL James and Critias, anti SR4 like mfb (incidently all part of the superior Shadowland crowd) or is a pretencious clown like emo samurai.
I met a lot of DSers at the con last week and honestly can't say what they last posted about before meeting the majority of them. I think the exception was Critias because he had been absent until I posted his fiction submission.
Maybe the 3rd edition crowd is maturing and leaving the boards to FanPros new demographic of emos. I know I spend less time here as there is less posted that interests me.
(If I used your name as an example please think of it as being well known and to help illustrate a point and not a personal attack. Except you, emo. I can not recall anyone ever posting so much and saying so little.)
| QUOTE (tisoz) |
| Now you just now a poster as a raging ball of hate like SL James and Critias, anti SR4 like mfb (incidently all part of the superior Shadowland crowd) or is a pretencious clown like emo samurai. I met a lot of DSers at the con last week and honestly can't say what they last posted about before meeting the majority of them. I think the exception was Critias because he had been absent until I posted hid fiction submission. (If I used your name as an example please think of it as being well known and to help illustrate a point and not a personal attack. Except you, emo. I can not recall anyone ever posting so much and saying so little.) |
I'm famous!
I can see what you're saying tisoz, but really, does it matter? Hang out, chat, enjoy. Sure, it's an argument here or there, and the demographic does seem to be going "WotC boards" rather than "longtime SR players", but it's still the "official" locale for good SR chat.
SR does seem to be more random discussion than SR3 specific stuff, but if you'll notice, a lot of it tends to be new posters putting in either SR4 stuff (without clicking the obvious "SR4" forum) or posting randomness. Once you learn to ignore most of it, DS goes back to being a good place. I think anyway. There's a ton of people I'd love to meet in person and throw dice with. Heck, even a lot of the posters I disagree with or flat out argue with are interesting and intelligent enough that I'd like to buy them a beer sometime and run the shadows. (Sounds terrible worded like that. Oh well. Who's sig has "I'm an elitist asshole"?)
I dunno. I have days when I watch posts that make my eyes roll to the back of the room. But most of the time, there's an interesting thread, or a cool project going on. And when there's not, and I have nothing new to post or ask, I just check, scroll, and go. I'm not always 100% constructive, but I try not to be destructive either. (Although even I admit my posting style could leave a different impression sometimes.)
Forums are interesting social beasts. DS is the one to turn to for SR (as far as I'm concerned). As long as we have the roll eyes smiley, it's not all bad.
SR does seem to be more random discussion than SR3 specific stuff, but if you'll notice, a lot of it tends to be new posters putting in either SR4 stuff (without clicking the obvious "SR4" forum) or posting randomness. Once you learn to ignore most of it, DS goes back to being a good place. I think anyway. There's a ton of people I'd love to meet in person and throw dice with. Heck, even a lot of the posters I disagree with or flat out argue with are interesting and intelligent enough that I'd like to buy them a beer sometime and run the shadows. (Sounds terrible worded like that. Oh well. Who's sig has "I'm an elitist asshole"?)
I dunno. I have days when I watch posts that make my eyes roll to the back of the room. But most of the time, there's an interesting thread, or a cool project going on. And when there's not, and I have nothing new to post or ask, I just check, scroll, and go. I'm not always 100% constructive, but I try not to be destructive either. (Although even I admit my posting style could leave a different impression sometimes.)
Forums are interesting social beasts. DS is the one to turn to for SR (as far as I'm concerned). As long as we have the roll eyes smiley, it's not all bad.
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| (Sounds terrible worded like that. Oh well. Who's sig has "I'm an elitist asshole"?) |
SL James. Who else?
I don't think the "feel" of DS changed much since SR4 was released. Sure, some long-time members went on, new appeared, but most of the older ones are still around and still enjoy a good chat or discussion.
| QUOTE (tisoz @ Aug 18 2006, 09:21 PM) |
| anti SR4 like mfb (incidently all part of the superior Shadowland crowd) |
Yes. In fact he has been SO anti-SR4 that he was a playtester for SR4. So, of course, he has no idea what he's been talking about for the last year.
Plus, you know, it's complete crap. I'm not a big fan of 90% of SR4. mfb's only not a fan of about... 20%. 30% maybe. But acknowledging that would require reading his posts and having the nuance to not paint people with broad baseless strokes... Something that your post does not reek of.
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| Heck, even a lot of the posters I disagree with or flat out argue with are interesting and intelligent enough that I'd like to buy them a beer sometime and run the shadows. (Sounds terrible worded like that. Oh well. Who's sig has "I'm an elitist asshole"?) |
Feel free. You know where you can find my games.
| QUOTE (SL James) | ||
Yes. In fact he has been SO anti-SR4 that he was a playtester for SR4. So, of course, he has no idea what he's been talking about for the last year. |
Uhm, I tend to agree with the things he finds wrong with 4th edition. So much so that I will gladly let him and a few others be flamed when trying to explain those dislikes. Just because I point toward him as someone with an easily remembered position does not mean I disagree with his reasoning.
| QUOTE (tisoz @ Aug 18 2006, 10:21 PM) | ||
Maybe because the old SR3 players have quit participating on Dumpshock? The game they like is stagnant, all the problems have been hashed out and if you didn't get a solution you liked, it is too bad because there is not going to be an update or clarification coming. (I almost wonder if one of the last errata and FAQ updates that made so little sense when they came out were FanPro stirring up problems with SR3 so that SR4 would be more acceptable.) Back to DS and SR3 players, it seems like the static level went up in the last year. Most of the posts in the "SR3" forum were edition independent, conversational but relating to no specific edition, or post pumpingly bothersome. The face of DS has changed. The daily high posters contain names I used to dislike or now make my skin crawl. It used to be you new something about a posters game style. Doc Funkenstien et al, Laughlin, Bitbasher, Sphynx, etc.. Now you just know a poster as a raging ball of hate like SL James and Critias, anti SR4 like mfb (incidently all part of the superior Shadowland crowd) or is a pretencious clown like emo samurai. I met a lot of DSers at the con last week and honestly can't say what they last posted about before meeting the majority of them. I think the exception was Critias because he had been absent until I posted his fiction submission. Maybe the 3rd edition crowd is maturing and leaving the boards to FanPros new demographic of emos. I know I spend less time here as there is less posted that interests me. (If I used your name as an example please think of it as being well known and to help illustrate a point and not a personal attack. Except you, emo. I can not recall anyone ever posting so much and saying so little.) |
I've been waiting a long time for an excuse to say this on DSF.
The Ruminous Path is closed to gwailos.
I dont think there is a "us vs them". I played SR3 at GenCON. Some of my group played in the FanPRO SR4 games (I didnt get any tickets...). I like SR4 better than SR3 but there is not enough source books out for SR4. Once Augmentation and Arensel (or whatever the next two books are called) come out that will change. Street Magic is cool. That gave enough "extra" to make a Magic character fun again. Once the gear/cyber/bioware stuff comes out, then it will change from Hackers, Sammies, Riggers, etc.
dog
dog
| QUOTE (dog_xinu) |
| That gave enough "extra" to make a Magic character fun again. |
Again? I'm confused.
I think he means, like, "they were fun in SR3 because there were supplemental sourcebooks with extra rules for them. Then they sucked in SR4 because I only had bare-bones basic rules for them. Now they can be fun again, because I have extra rules."
OK, that makes sense. Thanks.
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