 Elementals and vehicles, Kinda like spirits on a plane? |
  |
 Aug 21 2006, 06:54 PM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760  |
A quick question. Everyone has heard how a mage can destroy a jet fighter by summoning a spirit and telling it to manifest in the cockpit where it kills the pilot. The pilot (who is likely jacked in) then is killed without a chance to resist, making mages yet again the perfect character concept. I am of the opinion that this sort of tactic is undesirable. How do GMs stop it? I've heard people say that a spirit can't go anywhere the caster can't or hasn't gone. But then one has to ask, how does search power work, if the spirit can only go where the caster has already been? (Or is this another good limitation to avoid turning your good old fashioned investigations into ten minutes negotiation, ten minutes searching, twenty minutes combat and five minutes getting paid?)
What else have people done to put limitations on spirits against manifesting in vehicles, the perfect search power even if it's only a rating 1 watcher, and the odd ability of patrolling spirits to find you in a set amount of time regardless as to how much planning and gear you have when you camp out in the guarded facility? |
 |
 
|
|
Aug 21 2006, 07:44 PM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Ward any crew compartment if magical response is likely.
If it's a high force ward, that's the whole countermeasure. However, a low force ward created by a group of wagemages so that whichever one is on duty can send an elemental of their own on a remote beat-down and/or project their way out to the situation is more dramatic. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 21 2006, 08:18 PM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Uh, I'm not sure if this is a rule right now, but limiting Manifestation to within LOS of the mage is one good idea. Actually, come to think of it, elementals have to stay within a certain radius of mages, no? So you can't kill fighter pilots just like that.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 21 2006, 08:31 PM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Remote service frees the elemental from any future services but allows a command to exceed the range.
If you could take out a fighter jet with a force 1 water elemental, it would be cost effective. If it would take force 4 or 5, then you should start comparing it to anti aircraft missile costs. Yes, I know that enchanting makes it affordable to make your own materials, but still the time and risk of an uncontrolled elemental is a deterrent for starting mages. The biggest deterrent I can think of is how do you convey non LoS information to an elemental? If the plane in question is in sight, the conjurer is also well within weapon's range. If the craft is out of sight, the conjurer will need to be very carefully descriptive of the target and that may not be as easy with only long range sensor data. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 21 2006, 08:35 PM
Post
#5
|
|
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
What about astral projection?
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 21 2006, 09:05 PM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Sure. The conjurer goes with the spirit, points at the pilot, and says "kill that guy." Perfect.
It would also be possible for an initiate with Masking to spoof a ward and call a bound elemental to the location via the metaplanes, thus alowing the spirit to bypass the ward. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 21 2006, 10:27 PM
Post
#7
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 573 Joined: 23-July 03 From: outside America Member No.: 5,015 |
Or if you have a shaman, wait until the plane starts to turn, dive or climb -any change in velocity really- then get your force 10 spirit with 1 service, and tell it to apply Movement to the jet. Centripetal force will kill the pilot somehow: blood drained from the head, excessive blood forced into the head, plane stalling, plane hitting ground, whatever.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 21 2006, 10:50 PM
Post
#8
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 451 Joined: 8-May 06 Member No.: 8,533 |
Well, the storm power can be fun... And, if the GM allows it and you're about to jump off the plane, so can the earthquake power...
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 22 2006, 12:50 AM
Post
#9
|
|
|
King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
If it's a jet can't you just get a spirit to create a vacuum in front of the engine intakes? Might not cause the aircrafts immediate destruction since there's a chance of it gliding down and making an emergency landing but it gets it out of the air. Also neatly sidesteps the whole warded crew compartment idea as well.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 22 2006, 12:59 AM
Post
#10
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
Consider movement rates. Spirits have to manifest to use their powers on physical objects, right? You could take that to mean that they have to have some degree of proximity to their target for the power work. Or you could say that when using a power on a fast-mover, the spirit has to "aim" somehow. So instead of creating a vaccuum at the intake of the jet engine, all it can do is create one somewhere in the aircraft's path and hope that they meet.
I'm pretty sure there's no rule on this, but if you need to tone down the spirit, you could do something with it. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 22 2006, 01:08 AM
Post
#11
|
|
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Velocity is realitive. From a certain frame of referance the airplane is completely stationary,
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 22 2006, 02:16 AM
Post
#12
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 247 Joined: 28-November 04 Member No.: 6,852 |
That's a question that came up in one of my games, recently. If an elemental appears inside a moving vehicle, but does not manifest, does it remain inside the vehicle? Or will it just pass through the back of the vehicle, and have to be moving to keep up? Same question applies to materialized spirits, but I imagine they would behave as any other passenger in the vehicle. Any thoughts? This post has been edited by Shrapnel: Aug 22 2006, 04:18 AM |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 22 2006, 09:28 AM
Post
#13
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
Well, if one wants to get interpretive with the physics, one could just say that any spirit manifesting on the surface of the earth will be left behind as the planet hurtles through space, but that's just silly.
I mean, "from a certain frame of reference," if spirits can ignore that things are moving around, they'd be more handy for stopping bullets, too. But in my opinion, they have quickness and reaction scores for a reason. For the sake of helping Nezumi with the original question, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the act of manifesting inside a fast-moving object may be pretty difficult. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 22 2006, 11:13 AM
Post
#14
|
|
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Matching the speed of an aircraft before materializing should be easy due to astral fast movement. There are two questions to ask. Can an astral body without a physical component be part of an airplane's system so that it moves as the airplane moves. The answer to this question has many consequences. For example, projecting while traveling on a plane would be quite different in the plane left one behind. Projecting on a space station would have the same problem (going from a rating 8 manawarp to a rating 10 manawarp in less than a second can't be fun). I'm going to suggest that astral bodies exist in the same frame of reference as the astral shadows of the material things around them. Thus, an astral being on an airplane wouldn't have to expend any effort to stay with the plane. Another interpretation would be that the manasphere itself has a unique frame of reference and that astral beings exist in it. Under that interpretation, they won't fly off the earth or out of space stations, but they'll have trouble on airplanes unless those airplanes are aspected in some way.
The second question is just as important. Can a spirit manifest while moving under its own power? If yes, then there should be no difficulty matching the speed of the plane. If no to this question and if the spirit can't match the vehicle's frame of reference, then materializing in any moving vehicle is nearly impossible. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 22 2006, 12:30 PM
Post
#15
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
I don't see how fast astral movement would make one keep up with a plane. It seems to me that the spirit would be moving way too fast.
As to astral bodies keeping in the same frame of reference as the aura of their physical environment, I agree completely. However, you asked for ways to limit the effect of spirits on vehicles. I offered a suggestion as to interpret the rules in a way that might help (even though I don't interpret them that way myself.) Do what you want with the suggestion, but debating it seems kind of pointless. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 22 2006, 01:27 PM
Post
#16
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 358 Joined: 12-May 05 From: The nearest UV host near you... Member No.: 7,390 |
Who needs a pilot to be present there anyway? In the 6th world, I do think that the vast majority of flights are not human maneuvered on site...
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 22 2006, 06:20 PM
Post
#17
|
|||||||
|
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
This will be very difficult. Using a spirit power on a technical object still requires that it overcome the OR.
The jet likely has a far, far better reaction. It'll initially be a bump of turbulence, if it hits, then the jet will be able to dodge away pretty easily (I'm guessing).
I'm of the opinion that, in relation to the spirit, the Earth is the fixed point. The spirits are related to the earth, and the manasphere is rooted to the earth. But that does raise the question, if a conjurer summons the spirit into the cargo area of his jet, will it appear for a moment then immediately "fall" out the back as the jet zooms away? A quick reminder about speeds, normal astral movement is Intelligence * 4 meters per turn (so around 1.3 m/s for a Force 1 spirit, 5.3 m/s for Force 4). This is when you have to "pay attention to your surroundings", which I assume is required to keep relative position to a moving vehicle. Fast movement is up to Magic * 1,000 km/hr, so certainly it could keep up with a jet, but I suspect it would have difficulties keeping itself inside the cockpit. Manifesting is a complex action, which requires 3 seconds, presumably moving at normal movement speed. This means a vehicle moving at 12 mph would be safe from Force 4 spirits or below (assuming it isn't moving in a straight enough line to be easily anticipated). I guess my new ruling is that spirits trying to manifest in a moving vehicle have to make some sort of reaction or quickness test based on the difference in speeds (vehicle speed vs. normal astral speed), the predictability of the vehicle's course (straight vs. dodging) and the size of the cabin. A jet moving at 1,000mpt will be almost impossible to manifest inside of. A van moving at 20 mph will be relatively safe. This also means a reasonable defense against spirits could be to keep your war wagon always on the move, circling the target. That does help a lot. But supposing the target is a stationary van (or heck, just a building), do people feel comfortable letting the mage summon up a force 6 spirit and sending it in to kill everyone inside? I guess again I'm going back to my old gripe, how can non-mages protect themselves against mages? If wards and counter spirits aren't options, how do you protect yourself? Aside from burying yourself under ground, of course. Alright, I admit it, I'm looking for a whole new set of rules on how spirits should work :P |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Aug 22 2006, 06:41 PM
Post
#18
|
|
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
In SR3, I would recomend that mundanes in danger of spirit attacks always carry a RonCo Pocket Fisherman with them. A character with 4 charisma and willpower will kill a force 4 spirit in two combat turns when hitting it with a fishing line, on average. Gotta love reach bonuses.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 22 2006, 07:02 PM
Post
#19
|
|
|
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
The funny thing is, you're right. Duly noted :P
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 22 2006, 07:08 PM
Post
#20
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
That's an interesting thought, Air Traffic control now consisting of a large network of riggers handing flights off to one another based on assigned airspace, with auto-pilots doing most of the cruising and an onboard pilot their strictly as an emergency back up system. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 22 2006, 07:23 PM
Post
#21
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
What about things like tanks? In the current 2006 american army, an M1A1 main battle tank (MBT) costs over $1.25M - there's got to be some mechanism for reliably protecting them so that any mage that can summon a force 9 water elemental doesn't just kill everyone inside. Although they can move at standard highway speeds, they'll usually be moving slowly enough that manifestation wouldn't be an issue. Should we assume that each tank and armored personnel carrier (APC) has a force 9+ permenant ward or quickened spirit barrier on it?
Alternatively, I guess we could assume that they're all remote as well, but it would leave things awfully vulnerable to ECM. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 22 2006, 09:03 PM
Post
#22
|
|
|
The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
The population of awakened who go around sending spirits to take out multi million dollar pieces of corp/gov equipment are countered by the initiated ritual sorcery tracking teams who act as pathfinders for spec ops teams eager to avenge their fallen comrades in arms. Note that there is no game mechanic involved in discouraging characters from using spirits to destroy whatever they want, no more then there is a mechanic preventing someone from firing off some missiles if they happen to have some. Or their guns.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 22 2006, 09:06 PM
Post
#23
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 451 Joined: 8-May 06 Member No.: 8,533 |
Nor is there a mechanic keeping someone from turning a panther cannon into a sniper rifle. But, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 22 2006, 09:37 PM
Post
#24
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
I never meant to suggest that there should be. However, it's logical that the government isn't going to spend millions of dollars on vehicles that could be negated by a predictible and easily implemented tactic. So for example, there's nothing stopping you from shooting at the tank, but it's 40 points of armor will give it a reasonable chance of surviving most encounters. (Although this gives some perspective on how elves and indian shamans could stand up to the might of the UCAS army in the early years before the yankees knew any better.) If I were spending over a million bucks on a vehicle, I'd probably also pay the wage-mage protection specialist to quicken the highest level spirit barrier possible on the thing (or ward it at the highest level possible, whichever was cheapest). If it wasn't cost effective to magically protect those vehicles, then they wouldn't still exist. Either they're all remote control drones, or they're warded/barrier'd, or they're filled with FAB once the hatches close, or they find a way to build them cheaply enough that they're considered expendable. [edit] I had another thought: How much space does it take for a spirit to materialize? If the space in the tank is only big enough to accomodate the jacked-in rigger, can the spirit materialize in there at all? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 22 2006, 10:20 PM
Post
#25
|
|
|
The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Consider a dynamic system where the cost of the ritual tracking team and covert response team is quite high, but fixed and relatively renewable. Compare this to the relatively cheap single awakened being sending spirits to attack tanks and airplanes. On a direct comparison the single awakened being is cheaper both relatively and absolutely.
Now consider the encounter where the ratio of results in a confrontation is 90+ percent death for the single awakened being, and perhaps some strain for the tracking teams and the spec ops response team, but no fatalities. Given a replacement rate measured in generations, the single awakened tank/plane killer can be effective in a single instance, but over time this population will become quite low. They are like roaches though, no matter how hard you stamp on them, there are always some around. This may be a case where a known deterrence response si cheaper then warding/guarding each vehicle. As to why build tanks... well, tanks have no drain, and you don't need to be awakened to build or operate them. |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 19th April 2024 - 08:34 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.