A quick question. Everyone has heard how a mage can destroy a jet fighter by summoning a spirit and telling it to manifest in the cockpit where it kills the pilot. The pilot (who is likely jacked in) then is killed without a chance to resist, making mages yet again the perfect character concept. I am of the opinion that this sort of tactic is undesirable. How do GMs stop it? I've heard people say that a spirit can't go anywhere the caster can't or hasn't gone. But then one has to ask, how does search power work, if the spirit can only go where the caster has already been? (Or is this another good limitation to avoid turning your good old fashioned investigations into ten minutes negotiation, ten minutes searching, twenty minutes combat and five minutes getting paid?)
What else have people done to put limitations on spirits against manifesting in vehicles, the perfect search power even if it's only a rating 1 watcher, and the odd ability of patrolling spirits to find you in a set amount of time regardless as to how much planning and gear you have when you camp out in the guarded facility?
Full Version: Elementals and vehicles
Ward any crew compartment if magical response is likely.
If it's a high force ward, that's the whole countermeasure. However, a low force ward created by a group of wagemages so that whichever one is on duty can send an elemental of their own on a remote beat-down and/or project their way out to the situation is more dramatic.
If it's a high force ward, that's the whole countermeasure. However, a low force ward created by a group of wagemages so that whichever one is on duty can send an elemental of their own on a remote beat-down and/or project their way out to the situation is more dramatic.
Uh, I'm not sure if this is a rule right now, but limiting Manifestation to within LOS of the mage is one good idea. Actually, come to think of it, elementals have to stay within a certain radius of mages, no? So you can't kill fighter pilots just like that.
Remote service frees the elemental from any future services but allows a command to exceed the range.
If you could take out a fighter jet with a force 1 water elemental, it would be cost effective. If it would take force 4 or 5, then you should start comparing it to anti aircraft missile costs.
Yes, I know that enchanting makes it affordable to make your own materials, but still the time and risk of an uncontrolled elemental is a deterrent for starting mages.
The biggest deterrent I can think of is how do you convey non LoS information to an elemental? If the plane in question is in sight, the conjurer is also well within weapon's range. If the craft is out of sight, the conjurer will need to be very carefully descriptive of the target and that may not be as easy with only long range sensor data.
If you could take out a fighter jet with a force 1 water elemental, it would be cost effective. If it would take force 4 or 5, then you should start comparing it to anti aircraft missile costs.
Yes, I know that enchanting makes it affordable to make your own materials, but still the time and risk of an uncontrolled elemental is a deterrent for starting mages.
The biggest deterrent I can think of is how do you convey non LoS information to an elemental? If the plane in question is in sight, the conjurer is also well within weapon's range. If the craft is out of sight, the conjurer will need to be very carefully descriptive of the target and that may not be as easy with only long range sensor data.
What about astral projection?
Sure. The conjurer goes with the spirit, points at the pilot, and says "kill that guy." Perfect.
It would also be possible for an initiate with Masking to spoof a ward and call a bound elemental to the location via the metaplanes, thus alowing the spirit to bypass the ward.
It would also be possible for an initiate with Masking to spoof a ward and call a bound elemental to the location via the metaplanes, thus alowing the spirit to bypass the ward.
Or if you have a shaman, wait until the plane starts to turn, dive or climb -any change in velocity really- then get your force 10 spirit with 1 service, and tell it to apply Movement to the jet. Centripetal force will kill the pilot somehow: blood drained from the head, excessive blood forced into the head, plane stalling, plane hitting ground, whatever.
Well, the storm power can be fun... And, if the GM allows it and you're about to jump off the plane, so can the earthquake power...
If it's a jet can't you just get a spirit to create a vacuum in front of the engine intakes? Might not cause the aircrafts immediate destruction since there's a chance of it gliding down and making an emergency landing but it gets it out of the air. Also neatly sidesteps the whole warded crew compartment idea as well.
Consider movement rates. Spirits have to manifest to use their powers on physical objects, right? You could take that to mean that they have to have some degree of proximity to their target for the power work. Or you could say that when using a power on a fast-mover, the spirit has to "aim" somehow. So instead of creating a vaccuum at the intake of the jet engine, all it can do is create one somewhere in the aircraft's path and hope that they meet.
I'm pretty sure there's no rule on this, but if you need to tone down the spirit, you could do something with it.
I'm pretty sure there's no rule on this, but if you need to tone down the spirit, you could do something with it.
Velocity is realitive. From a certain frame of referance the airplane is completely stationary,
| QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Aug 21 2006, 08:08 PM) |
| Velocity is realitive. From a certain frame of referance the airplane is completely stationary, |
That's a question that came up in one of my games, recently.
If an elemental appears inside a moving vehicle, but does not manifest, does it remain inside the vehicle? Or will it just pass through the back of the vehicle, and have to be moving to keep up?
Same question applies to materialized spirits, but I imagine they would behave as any other passenger in the vehicle.
Any thoughts?
Well, if one wants to get interpretive with the physics, one could just say that any spirit manifesting on the surface of the earth will be left behind as the planet hurtles through space, but that's just silly.
I mean, "from a certain frame of reference," if spirits can ignore that things are moving around, they'd be more handy for stopping bullets, too. But in my opinion, they have quickness and reaction scores for a reason.
For the sake of helping Nezumi with the original question, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the act of manifesting inside a fast-moving object may be pretty difficult.
I mean, "from a certain frame of reference," if spirits can ignore that things are moving around, they'd be more handy for stopping bullets, too. But in my opinion, they have quickness and reaction scores for a reason.
For the sake of helping Nezumi with the original question, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the act of manifesting inside a fast-moving object may be pretty difficult.
Matching the speed of an aircraft before materializing should be easy due to astral fast movement. There are two questions to ask. Can an astral body without a physical component be part of an airplane's system so that it moves as the airplane moves. The answer to this question has many consequences. For example, projecting while traveling on a plane would be quite different in the plane left one behind. Projecting on a space station would have the same problem (going from a rating 8 manawarp to a rating 10 manawarp in less than a second can't be fun). I'm going to suggest that astral bodies exist in the same frame of reference as the astral shadows of the material things around them. Thus, an astral being on an airplane wouldn't have to expend any effort to stay with the plane. Another interpretation would be that the manasphere itself has a unique frame of reference and that astral beings exist in it. Under that interpretation, they won't fly off the earth or out of space stations, but they'll have trouble on airplanes unless those airplanes are aspected in some way.
The second question is just as important. Can a spirit manifest while moving under its own power? If yes, then there should be no difficulty matching the speed of the plane. If no to this question and if the spirit can't match the vehicle's frame of reference, then materializing in any moving vehicle is nearly impossible.
The second question is just as important. Can a spirit manifest while moving under its own power? If yes, then there should be no difficulty matching the speed of the plane. If no to this question and if the spirit can't match the vehicle's frame of reference, then materializing in any moving vehicle is nearly impossible.
I don't see how fast astral movement would make one keep up with a plane. It seems to me that the spirit would be moving way too fast.
As to astral bodies keeping in the same frame of reference as the aura of their physical environment, I agree completely. However, you asked for ways to limit the effect of spirits on vehicles. I offered a suggestion as to interpret the rules in a way that might help (even though I don't interpret them that way myself.) Do what you want with the suggestion, but debating it seems kind of pointless.
As to astral bodies keeping in the same frame of reference as the aura of their physical environment, I agree completely. However, you asked for ways to limit the effect of spirits on vehicles. I offered a suggestion as to interpret the rules in a way that might help (even though I don't interpret them that way myself.) Do what you want with the suggestion, but debating it seems kind of pointless.
Who needs a pilot to be present there anyway? In the 6th world, I do think that the vast majority of flights are not human maneuvered on site...
| QUOTE (Bodak) |
| Or if you have a shaman, wait until the plane starts to turn, dive or climb -any change in velocity really- then get your force 10 spirit with 1 service, and tell it to apply Movement to the jet. Centripetal force will kill the pilot somehow: blood drained from the head, excessive blood forced into the head, plane stalling, plane hitting ground, whatever. |
This will be very difficult. Using a spirit power on a technical object still requires that it overcome the OR.
| QUOTE |
| If it's a jet can't you just get a spirit to create a vacuum in front of the engine intakes? |
The jet likely has a far, far better reaction. It'll initially be a bump of turbulence, if it hits, then the jet will be able to dodge away pretty easily (I'm guessing).
| QUOTE |
| If an elemental appears inside a moving vehicle, but does not manifest, does it remain inside the vehicle? Or will it just pass through the back of the vehicle, and have to be moving to keep up? |
I'm of the opinion that, in relation to the spirit, the Earth is the fixed point. The spirits are related to the earth, and the manasphere is rooted to the earth. But that does raise the question, if a conjurer summons the spirit into the cargo area of his jet, will it appear for a moment then immediately "fall" out the back as the jet zooms away?
A quick reminder about speeds, normal astral movement is Intelligence * 4 meters per turn (so around 1.3 m/s for a Force 1 spirit, 5.3 m/s for Force 4). This is when you have to "pay attention to your surroundings", which I assume is required to keep relative position to a moving vehicle. Fast movement is up to Magic * 1,000 km/hr, so certainly it could keep up with a jet, but I suspect it would have difficulties keeping itself inside the cockpit. Manifesting is a complex action, which requires 3 seconds, presumably moving at normal movement speed. This means a vehicle moving at 12 mph would be safe from Force 4 spirits or below (assuming it isn't moving in a straight enough line to be easily anticipated).
I guess my new ruling is that spirits trying to manifest in a moving vehicle have to make some sort of reaction or quickness test based on the difference in speeds (vehicle speed vs. normal astral speed), the predictability of the vehicle's course (straight vs. dodging) and the size of the cabin. A jet moving at 1,000mpt will be almost impossible to manifest inside of. A van moving at 20 mph will be relatively safe. This also means a reasonable defense against spirits could be to keep your war wagon always on the move, circling the target.
That does help a lot. But supposing the target is a stationary van (or heck, just a building), do people feel comfortable letting the mage summon up a force 6 spirit and sending it in to kill everyone inside? I guess again I'm going back to my old gripe, how can non-mages protect themselves against mages? If wards and counter spirits aren't options, how do you protect yourself? Aside from burying yourself under ground, of course.
Alright, I admit it, I'm looking for a whole new set of rules on how spirits should work
In SR3, I would recomend that mundanes in danger of spirit attacks always carry a RonCo Pocket Fisherman with them. A character with 4 charisma and willpower will kill a force 4 spirit in two combat turns when hitting it with a fishing line, on average. Gotta love reach bonuses.
The funny thing is, you're right. Duly noted
| QUOTE (JesterX) |
| Who needs a pilot to be present there anyway? In the 6th world, I do think that the vast majority of flights are not human maneuvered on site... |
That's an interesting thought, Air Traffic control now consisting of a large network of riggers handing flights off to one another based on assigned airspace, with auto-pilots doing most of the cruising and an onboard pilot their strictly as an emergency back up system.
What about things like tanks? In the current 2006 american army, an M1A1 main battle tank (MBT) costs over $1.25M - there's got to be some mechanism for reliably protecting them so that any mage that can summon a force 9 water elemental doesn't just kill everyone inside. Although they can move at standard highway speeds, they'll usually be moving slowly enough that manifestation wouldn't be an issue. Should we assume that each tank and armored personnel carrier (APC) has a force 9+ permenant ward or quickened spirit barrier on it?
Alternatively, I guess we could assume that they're all remote as well, but it would leave things awfully vulnerable to ECM.
Alternatively, I guess we could assume that they're all remote as well, but it would leave things awfully vulnerable to ECM.
The population of awakened who go around sending spirits to take out multi million dollar pieces of corp/gov equipment are countered by the initiated ritual sorcery tracking teams who act as pathfinders for spec ops teams eager to avenge their fallen comrades in arms. Note that there is no game mechanic involved in discouraging characters from using spirits to destroy whatever they want, no more then there is a mechanic preventing someone from firing off some missiles if they happen to have some. Or their guns.
Nor is there a mechanic keeping someone from turning a panther cannon into a sniper rifle. But, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be.
| QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Aug 22 2006, 04:03 PM) |
| The population of awakened who go around sending spirits to take out multi million dollar pieces of corp/gov equipment are countered by the initiated ritual sorcery tracking teams who act as pathfinders for spec ops teams eager to avenge their fallen comrades in arms. Note that there is no game mechanic involved in discouraging characters from using spirits to destroy whatever they want, no more then there is a mechanic preventing someone from firing off some missiles if they happen to have some. Or their guns. |
I never meant to suggest that there should be. However, it's logical that the government isn't going to spend millions of dollars on vehicles that could be negated by a predictible and easily implemented tactic. So for example, there's nothing stopping you from shooting at the tank, but it's 40 points of armor will give it a reasonable chance of surviving most encounters. (Although this gives some perspective on how elves and indian shamans could stand up to the might of the UCAS army in the early years before the yankees knew any better.)
If I were spending over a million bucks on a vehicle, I'd probably also pay the wage-mage protection specialist to quicken the highest level spirit barrier possible on the thing (or ward it at the highest level possible, whichever was cheapest).
If it wasn't cost effective to magically protect those vehicles, then they wouldn't still exist. Either they're all remote control drones, or they're warded/barrier'd, or they're filled with FAB once the hatches close, or they find a way to build them cheaply enough that they're considered expendable.
[edit] I had another thought: How much space does it take for a spirit to materialize? If the space in the tank is only big enough to accomodate the jacked-in rigger, can the spirit materialize in there at all?
Consider a dynamic system where the cost of the ritual tracking team and covert response team is quite high, but fixed and relatively renewable. Compare this to the relatively cheap single awakened being sending spirits to attack tanks and airplanes. On a direct comparison the single awakened being is cheaper both relatively and absolutely.
Now consider the encounter where the ratio of results in a confrontation is 90+ percent death for the single awakened being, and perhaps some strain for the tracking teams and the spec ops response team, but no fatalities. Given a replacement rate measured in generations, the single awakened tank/plane killer can be effective in a single instance, but over time this population will become quite low.
They are like roaches though, no matter how hard you stamp on them, there are always some around.
This may be a case where a known deterrence response si cheaper then warding/guarding each vehicle.
As to why build tanks... well, tanks have no drain, and you don't need to be awakened to build or operate them.
Now consider the encounter where the ratio of results in a confrontation is 90+ percent death for the single awakened being, and perhaps some strain for the tracking teams and the spec ops response team, but no fatalities. Given a replacement rate measured in generations, the single awakened tank/plane killer can be effective in a single instance, but over time this population will become quite low.
They are like roaches though, no matter how hard you stamp on them, there are always some around.
This may be a case where a known deterrence response si cheaper then warding/guarding each vehicle.
As to why build tanks... well, tanks have no drain, and you don't need to be awakened to build or operate them.
| QUOTE (LilithTaveril) |
| Nor is there a mechanic keeping someone from turning a panther cannon into a sniper rifle. But, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be. |
The difference being that you can't have a panther assault cannon out of chargen. You can have elementals. Also, using a panther assault cannon to snipe is only really dangerous against individuals and small vehicles, and is easily countered. Spirits can bring down super tanks, don't require an excellent sniping spot or illegal materials, no need to conceal equipment. Debatably, even forensics will be pretty limited against them (do spirits leave the astral signature of their summoners?)
If you manage to purchase, place, sight and fire your autocannon without getting caught, you deserve to kill that car. Using an invisible, difficult to trace, impossible to counter weapon simply seems cheap to me.
I imagine every military contractor in the world is desperate to find a relatively permanent astral barrier, like FAB but without the space requirements, to protect against spirits and spells, for exactly the reason Apathy brought up. You don't buy a $40M tank that can be taken down by some two bit rat shaman living in the ghettos. That's the same kind of mentality that builds giant robots pilotable only by school children, or with one vulnerable spot in the otherwise invulnerable armor which results in instant robot death.
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| That's the same kind of mentality that builds giant robots pilotable only by school children, or with one vulnerable spot in the otherwise invulnerable armor which results in instant robot death. |
That's exactly the kind of mentality that some people in the field of military equippment have. Consider, for a moment, the Bradley Fighting vehicle and the troubles that plagued its devolpment as stated the book and the movie tities The Pentagon Wars.
| QUOTE (nezumi) | ||
The difference being that you can't have a panther assault cannon out of chargen. You can have elementals. Also, using a panther assault cannon to snipe is only really dangerous against individuals and small vehicles, and is easily countered. Spirits can bring down super tanks, don't require an excellent sniping spot or illegal materials, no need to conceal equipment. Debatably, even forensics will be pretty limited against them (do spirits leave the astral signature of their summoners?) |
But you can start with a smartlinked MMG loaded with EX-EX that has a tripod and a sound suppressor. That'll chew through vehicles pretty damn fast.
As for a spirit: Depending on what the spirit does, it can be pretty obvious what happened. If you have a tank that never opened its doors, but is burned on the inside, you're probably looking for a mage. And whether or not it opened its doors is part of why you have a rigger monitoring all of your vehicles to begin with.
| QUOTE |
| If you manage to purchase, place, sight and fire your autocannon without getting caught, you deserve to kill that car. Using an invisible, difficult to trace, impossible to counter weapon simply seems cheap to me. |
Invisibility spells can be cast on tanks, panther cannons, etc. And, when all you have is devastation to work with, it can be very damned hard to know whether the enemy forces were using an actual tank or just a panther cannon. Making things hard to trace isn't difficult if you're smart about it.
| QUOTE |
| I imagine every military contractor in the world is desperate to find a relatively permanent astral barrier, like FAB but without the space requirements, to protect against spirits and spells, for exactly the reason Apathy brought up. You don't buy a $40M tank that can be taken down by some two bit rat shaman living in the ghettos. That's the same kind of mentality that builds giant robots pilotable only by school children, or with one vulnerable spot in the otherwise invulnerable armor which results in instant robot death. |
That's also the same kind of mentality that issues soldiers an assault rifle that has to be field stripped and cleaned if it gets a grain of sand or a bit of mud down the barrel (a.k.a. the M16). The military mentality behind that is a case of getting something cheaply, not a case of wondering whether or not soldiers will die as a result of using it.
My objection to the vulerability of tanks is not that shadowrunners can kill them. I can't even imagine the situation where I'd try to chase down a runner team in a tank. My objection is it doesn't make sense to spend $40M (or more) on a company of main battle tanks for a war if my opponent could counter the threat by hiring a small team of conjurer adepts for a couple hundred thousand dollars.
When tanks first came onto the battlefield, they were nearly unstoppable - machine guns were useless against their armor, and heavy cannon weren't manueverable enough to hit the moving targets consistently. It got so the only thing that could kill a tank was another tank. That caused the military research groups to go into overdrive, and find lots of new, low-cost alternatives, especially mines and ATGMs. I would imagine magic would be like that: when it first came out, the only thing that could stop a mage (spirit, spell, whatever) would be another mage. But 50+ years later the armies of the world should have developed at least a few effective countermeasures.
And to respond to two of your other points: MMGs won't do squat to hardened tank armor, even with AP and on full auto. And yes, the M16 requires more maintenance than the AK, but it's not that bad.
When tanks first came onto the battlefield, they were nearly unstoppable - machine guns were useless against their armor, and heavy cannon weren't manueverable enough to hit the moving targets consistently. It got so the only thing that could kill a tank was another tank. That caused the military research groups to go into overdrive, and find lots of new, low-cost alternatives, especially mines and ATGMs. I would imagine magic would be like that: when it first came out, the only thing that could stop a mage (spirit, spell, whatever) would be another mage. But 50+ years later the armies of the world should have developed at least a few effective countermeasures.
And to respond to two of your other points: MMGs won't do squat to hardened tank armor, even with AP and on full auto. And yes, the M16 requires more maintenance than the AK, but it's not that bad.
Apathy, some of the soldiers I usually talk to would disagree with you and say I'm playing down its weaknesses. I figured the middle road is the best option, and usually the closest to the truth.
That aside, keep in mind a tank in SR4 benefits from threshhold. You probably need five or six successes to affect a tank, and by then you're slinging some extreme mojo.
Now, for magical counters: Simple. Give the mages something besides a tank to focus on. I figure most squads will at least try to have a magician with them. Send in two or three spirits as tank escorts. At that point, the runners are going to have a dilemma: Have the mage banish the spirits, or have the mage take out the tank? The mage can't do both at the same time, and usually, you only have enough time for one before you start worrying about that tank cannon firing.
Now, if you're going to be sending in a tank, you might as well send in a few drones as escorts. Maybe a good three or four lynxes and a couple of dalmations. Arm the lynxes with APDS and the dalmations with EX-EX. Combine that with my spirit suggestion and, at the investment of a rigger and a mage or two, you've got a seriously powerful fighting force that will present runner magicians with too many targets and not enough time. If you send in a tank alone, simply ward it.
That aside, keep in mind a tank in SR4 benefits from threshhold. You probably need five or six successes to affect a tank, and by then you're slinging some extreme mojo.
Now, for magical counters: Simple. Give the mages something besides a tank to focus on. I figure most squads will at least try to have a magician with them. Send in two or three spirits as tank escorts. At that point, the runners are going to have a dilemma: Have the mage banish the spirits, or have the mage take out the tank? The mage can't do both at the same time, and usually, you only have enough time for one before you start worrying about that tank cannon firing.
Now, if you're going to be sending in a tank, you might as well send in a few drones as escorts. Maybe a good three or four lynxes and a couple of dalmations. Arm the lynxes with APDS and the dalmations with EX-EX. Combine that with my spirit suggestion and, at the investment of a rigger and a mage or two, you've got a seriously powerful fighting force that will present runner magicians with too many targets and not enough time. If you send in a tank alone, simply ward it.
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| My objection to the vulerability of tanks is not that shadowrunners can kill them. I can't even imagine the situation where I'd try to chase down a runner team in a tank. My objection is it doesn't make sense to spend $40M (or more) on a company of main battle tanks for a war if my opponent could counter the threat by hiring a small team of conjurer adepts for a couple hundred thousand dollars. |
You know, modern tanks are realitivly vulnerable to mobility kills. Sure, penetrating the armor is difficult but it only takes a single grenade to make it throw a tread.
The entire point of magical personnel is their rarity.
So the best thing to stop a magician is a equally rare magician. Hence the crazy levels and wages the Awakened receive.
A Conjurer or full mage is very rare indeed, their duties may include warding tanks or giving spirt bodyguards but they also have to provide security to the rest of the damn army and all its supply lines and buildings and personnel etc
Tanks and jets are primarily used against mundane targets or to blast unsuspecting magicians from a safe distance, the percentage chance of encountering a aggressive magician is so small as to make magical protection on a tank or fighter pointless with out special reason. it simply isn't cost effective.
Thats why they employ mages/shamans to act as guards and battle mages to cover the magical strategic angle, so as already stated the enemy mage is stopped by the friendly mage's actions.
To reduce spirits pulling the manifesting in the vehicle trick enforce the domains rules for shamans and count the inside of the vehicle as a hearth domain. Unless he can see into the vehicle he carn't summon a spirit.
Make summoning elementals costly by restricting the materials and the safe spaces to summon them. For example where in the barrens can you find a six meter diameter space that you can have a bonfire going and not be outside? That means paying off the gang's who's turf your on or right when your in the middle of summoning you might be shot in the back or have your circle broken.
Hope this awakens some more ref mean streak ideas in a similar vein.
So the best thing to stop a magician is a equally rare magician. Hence the crazy levels and wages the Awakened receive.
A Conjurer or full mage is very rare indeed, their duties may include warding tanks or giving spirt bodyguards but they also have to provide security to the rest of the damn army and all its supply lines and buildings and personnel etc
Tanks and jets are primarily used against mundane targets or to blast unsuspecting magicians from a safe distance, the percentage chance of encountering a aggressive magician is so small as to make magical protection on a tank or fighter pointless with out special reason. it simply isn't cost effective.
Thats why they employ mages/shamans to act as guards and battle mages to cover the magical strategic angle, so as already stated the enemy mage is stopped by the friendly mage's actions.
To reduce spirits pulling the manifesting in the vehicle trick enforce the domains rules for shamans and count the inside of the vehicle as a hearth domain. Unless he can see into the vehicle he carn't summon a spirit.
Make summoning elementals costly by restricting the materials and the safe spaces to summon them. For example where in the barrens can you find a six meter diameter space that you can have a bonfire going and not be outside? That means paying off the gang's who's turf your on or right when your in the middle of summoning you might be shot in the back or have your circle broken.
Hope this awakens some more ref mean streak ideas in a similar vein.
Well, then there's always the idea of simply picking the four biggest gangs in the Barrens, killing them all by yourself, and then doing the summoning. I honestly doubt any of the surviving gangs will pick on you after that.
No but the syndicates will and thats a lot of game play and murder to summon some elementals.
You make all of that bloodshed sound like a bad thing.
As for the syndicates: Make a deal between them and the smaller gangs. I know it's a lot of work, but having a permanent spot in the Barrens to summon as many elementals as you want is worth it.
As for the syndicates: Make a deal between them and the smaller gangs. I know it's a lot of work, but having a permanent spot in the Barrens to summon as many elementals as you want is worth it.
Or just pay a little more protection money and be protected? Then you don't have to run a big area of the barrens and sleep with your weapon focus under your pillow. Ok the last point is pointless we all sleep with our weapon focus under our pillow.
What about those dual-natured screaming slug-things that Deus used to reinforce his doors? Does anybody think that those would start seeing wider use in the military to protect vehicles and bunkers?
if your going to spend 15 billion $$ on a war machine your going to place some decent wards on it, something spirits won't overcome.
I remember reading about tanks having full on warding for wars for just that reason. Also I remember reading that mages on astral patrol or serving as the reserves for potential magical threats. if you were a general and had as much money as you wanted, what would you do with it?
for spirits manifesting, I typically follow that they manifest within X meters of shaman etc... if they are moving fast its like an astral leash.
if they are told to manifest inside a vehicle that has no warding, they can manifest given they have the space to do so, the greater the force, the greater the size in my games.
so for that jet cockpit, its not very possible to squeeze an elemental in that confined space. On the other hand they'd definitely be warding the glass to prevent spells from affecting there billion nuyen jet.
I remember reading about tanks having full on warding for wars for just that reason. Also I remember reading that mages on astral patrol or serving as the reserves for potential magical threats. if you were a general and had as much money as you wanted, what would you do with it?
for spirits manifesting, I typically follow that they manifest within X meters of shaman etc... if they are moving fast its like an astral leash.
if they are told to manifest inside a vehicle that has no warding, they can manifest given they have the space to do so, the greater the force, the greater the size in my games.
so for that jet cockpit, its not very possible to squeeze an elemental in that confined space. On the other hand they'd definitely be warding the glass to prevent spells from affecting there billion nuyen jet.
| QUOTE (Pendaric) |
| Ok the last point is pointless we all sleep with our weapon focus under our pillow. |
Maybe you do.
(proud owner of a force 4 pillow weapon focus)
| QUOTE (Pendaric) |
| To reduce spirits pulling the manifesting in the vehicle trick enforce the domains rules for shamans and count the inside of the vehicle as a hearth domain. |
Toxic shamans laugh at your domain restrictions.
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| I had another thought: How much space does it take for a spirit to materialize? If the space in the tank is only big enough to accomodate the jacked-in rigger, can the spirit materialize in there at all? |
If there is only enough physical space for the rigger, then there is no free space for a materialised spirit. However a fire elemental doesn't really occupy a volume, a lot like a bonfire doesn't really have a volume. Same for an air elemental. Gas has no fixed volume. A water elemental has a fixed volume but no fixed shape, so it can fill up any available space in the vehicle. If it has the engulf power it can completely surround the rigger and possibly try to occupy the space he is taking up as part of its engulf.
Note though that Shrapnel and hyzmarca are the only people talking about materialised spirits. Everyone else is talking about manifesting spirits, which are only present on the astral plane but visible in the minds of living creatures, thus they occupy no volume on the physical plane at all and cannot interact with it in any way.
| QUOTE (Bodak) |
| Note though that Shrapnel and hyzmarca are the only people talking about materialised spirits. Everyone else is talking about manifesting spirits, which are only present on the astral plane but visible in the minds of living creatures, thus they occupy no volume on the physical plane at all and cannot interact with it in any way. |
Manifested spirits also can't harm anyone unless the target is the summoner or a voodoo serviter bound to the summoner.
I really don't think that a magician would send an elemental into his own tank to kill himself.
The term manifest was used incorrectly.
As for the volume of a spirit, I'd say that they so have a fixed volume and they can't just materialize unless they have the space to do so.
| QUOTE (Pendaric @ Aug 23 2006, 09:18 AM) |
| The entire point of magical personnel is their rarity. |
Except when we're talking about shadowrunners, where about a half of the working population is awakened (and hence my problem). On the flip side, any group which doesn't have millions of nuyen available to pay for a handful of mages is pretty much a big fat target to anyone else. Now I could see making every mage eligible for citizenship via corporate sponsorship, and therefore every PC mage has to have a good reason not to work, or otherwise make magic more expenisve at chargen.
| QUOTE |
To reduce spirits pulling the manifesting in the vehicle trick enforce the domains rules for shamans and count the inside of the vehicle as a hearth domain. Unless he can see into the vehicle he carn't summon a spirit. |
That is an interesting idea (although directly contradicted by canon). I'd consider that.
| QUOTE |
Make summoning elementals costly by restricting the materials and the safe spaces to summon them. |
I could see this working if the chance of the elemental eating you or the material cost was much, much higher. Although then that reduces the chances of elementals being used for any purpose, so I'm a little iffy on that.
Yeah, I think it's time to bring in Deus' slugs for instant warding. After fifty years, someone somewhere would have developed a cheap way to fight mages (having another mage is not cheap, BTW).
Oh, just to nitpick, Lilith, the weapon setup you mentioned earlier is not legal out of chargen. There are no MMGs with an avail less than 18, and the tripod I believe has an avail of 10. Amd as has been pointed out, that STILL can't kill tanks.
Ok you want cheap but effective ways to stop a spirit.
Use smoke grenades.
Smoke and mist carry over into the astral the primary method of vision for a spirit. They carn't attack it if they carn't see it.
Most tanks have smoke dispensers and there cheap in comparison to warding everything, so you still maintain game reality.
As to my domain point,
"To reduce spirits pulling the materialising in the vehicle trick enforce the domains rules for shamans and count the inside of the vehicle as a hearth domain. Unless he can see into the vehicle he carn't summon a spirit."
Thats cannon, save the shaman would have to be IN the tank.
A spirit effecting the tank and it occupants via its powers, as the tank is presumably in its domain, is possible. Materialising within it is not.
Use smoke grenades.
Smoke and mist carry over into the astral the primary method of vision for a spirit. They carn't attack it if they carn't see it.
Most tanks have smoke dispensers and there cheap in comparison to warding everything, so you still maintain game reality.
As to my domain point,
"To reduce spirits pulling the materialising in the vehicle trick enforce the domains rules for shamans and count the inside of the vehicle as a hearth domain. Unless he can see into the vehicle he carn't summon a spirit."
Thats cannon, save the shaman would have to be IN the tank.
A spirit effecting the tank and it occupants via its powers, as the tank is presumably in its domain, is possible. Materialising within it is not.
Remember the old Rigger Black Book and the final entry about the tank that gets cut off just as it mentions something about paranormal armour?
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