 Elementals and vehicles, Kinda like spirits on a plane? |
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 Aug 22 2006, 10:40 PM
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#26
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760  |
The difference being that you can't have a panther assault cannon out of chargen. You can have elementals. Also, using a panther assault cannon to snipe is only really dangerous against individuals and small vehicles, and is easily countered. Spirits can bring down super tanks, don't require an excellent sniping spot or illegal materials, no need to conceal equipment. Debatably, even forensics will be pretty limited against them (do spirits leave the astral signature of their summoners?) If you manage to purchase, place, sight and fire your autocannon without getting caught, you deserve to kill that car. Using an invisible, difficult to trace, impossible to counter weapon simply seems cheap to me. I imagine every military contractor in the world is desperate to find a relatively permanent astral barrier, like FAB but without the space requirements, to protect against spirits and spells, for exactly the reason Apathy brought up. You don't buy a $40M tank that can be taken down by some two bit rat shaman living in the ghettos. That's the same kind of mentality that builds giant robots pilotable only by school children, or with one vulnerable spot in the otherwise invulnerable armor which results in instant robot death. |
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Aug 22 2006, 11:21 PM
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#27
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
That's exactly the kind of mentality that some people in the field of military equippment have. Consider, for a moment, the Bradley Fighting vehicle and the troubles that plagued its devolpment as stated the book and the movie tities The Pentagon Wars. |
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Aug 23 2006, 02:38 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 451 Joined: 8-May 06 Member No.: 8,533 |
But you can start with a smartlinked MMG loaded with EX-EX that has a tripod and a sound suppressor. That'll chew through vehicles pretty damn fast. As for a spirit: Depending on what the spirit does, it can be pretty obvious what happened. If you have a tank that never opened its doors, but is burned on the inside, you're probably looking for a mage. And whether or not it opened its doors is part of why you have a rigger monitoring all of your vehicles to begin with.
Invisibility spells can be cast on tanks, panther cannons, etc. And, when all you have is devastation to work with, it can be very damned hard to know whether the enemy forces were using an actual tank or just a panther cannon. Making things hard to trace isn't difficult if you're smart about it.
That's also the same kind of mentality that issues soldiers an assault rifle that has to be field stripped and cleaned if it gets a grain of sand or a bit of mud down the barrel (a.k.a. the M16). The military mentality behind that is a case of getting something cheaply, not a case of wondering whether or not soldiers will die as a result of using it. |
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Aug 23 2006, 03:59 AM
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#29
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
My objection to the vulerability of tanks is not that shadowrunners can kill them. I can't even imagine the situation where I'd try to chase down a runner team in a tank. My objection is it doesn't make sense to spend $40M (or more) on a company of main battle tanks for a war if my opponent could counter the threat by hiring a small team of conjurer adepts for a couple hundred thousand dollars.
When tanks first came onto the battlefield, they were nearly unstoppable - machine guns were useless against their armor, and heavy cannon weren't manueverable enough to hit the moving targets consistently. It got so the only thing that could kill a tank was another tank. That caused the military research groups to go into overdrive, and find lots of new, low-cost alternatives, especially mines and ATGMs. I would imagine magic would be like that: when it first came out, the only thing that could stop a mage (spirit, spell, whatever) would be another mage. But 50+ years later the armies of the world should have developed at least a few effective countermeasures. And to respond to two of your other points: MMGs won't do squat to hardened tank armor, even with AP and on full auto. And yes, the M16 requires more maintenance than the AK, but it's not that bad. |
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Aug 23 2006, 04:18 AM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 451 Joined: 8-May 06 Member No.: 8,533 |
Apathy, some of the soldiers I usually talk to would disagree with you and say I'm playing down its weaknesses. I figured the middle road is the best option, and usually the closest to the truth.
That aside, keep in mind a tank in SR4 benefits from threshhold. You probably need five or six successes to affect a tank, and by then you're slinging some extreme mojo. Now, for magical counters: Simple. Give the mages something besides a tank to focus on. I figure most squads will at least try to have a magician with them. Send in two or three spirits as tank escorts. At that point, the runners are going to have a dilemma: Have the mage banish the spirits, or have the mage take out the tank? The mage can't do both at the same time, and usually, you only have enough time for one before you start worrying about that tank cannon firing. Now, if you're going to be sending in a tank, you might as well send in a few drones as escorts. Maybe a good three or four lynxes and a couple of dalmations. Arm the lynxes with APDS and the dalmations with EX-EX. Combine that with my spirit suggestion and, at the investment of a rigger and a mage or two, you've got a seriously powerful fighting force that will present runner magicians with too many targets and not enough time. If you send in a tank alone, simply ward it. |
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Aug 23 2006, 12:00 PM
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#31
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
You know, modern tanks are realitivly vulnerable to mobility kills. Sure, penetrating the armor is difficult but it only takes a single grenade to make it throw a tread. |
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Aug 23 2006, 02:18 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 5-December 05 From: Crying in the wilderness Member No.: 8,047 |
The entire point of magical personnel is their rarity.
So the best thing to stop a magician is a equally rare magician. Hence the crazy levels and wages the Awakened receive. A Conjurer or full mage is very rare indeed, their duties may include warding tanks or giving spirt bodyguards but they also have to provide security to the rest of the damn army and all its supply lines and buildings and personnel etc Tanks and jets are primarily used against mundane targets or to blast unsuspecting magicians from a safe distance, the percentage chance of encountering a aggressive magician is so small as to make magical protection on a tank or fighter pointless with out special reason. it simply isn't cost effective. Thats why they employ mages/shamans to act as guards and battle mages to cover the magical strategic angle, so as already stated the enemy mage is stopped by the friendly mage's actions. To reduce spirits pulling the manifesting in the vehicle trick enforce the domains rules for shamans and count the inside of the vehicle as a hearth domain. Unless he can see into the vehicle he carn't summon a spirit. Make summoning elementals costly by restricting the materials and the safe spaces to summon them. For example where in the barrens can you find a six meter diameter space that you can have a bonfire going and not be outside? That means paying off the gang's who's turf your on or right when your in the middle of summoning you might be shot in the back or have your circle broken. Hope this awakens some more ref mean streak ideas in a similar vein. |
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Aug 23 2006, 02:20 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 451 Joined: 8-May 06 Member No.: 8,533 |
Well, then there's always the idea of simply picking the four biggest gangs in the Barrens, killing them all by yourself, and then doing the summoning. I honestly doubt any of the surviving gangs will pick on you after that.
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Aug 23 2006, 02:22 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 5-December 05 From: Crying in the wilderness Member No.: 8,047 |
No but the syndicates will and thats a lot of game play and murder to summon some elementals.
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Aug 23 2006, 02:26 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 451 Joined: 8-May 06 Member No.: 8,533 |
You make all of that bloodshed sound like a bad thing.
As for the syndicates: Make a deal between them and the smaller gangs. I know it's a lot of work, but having a permanent spot in the Barrens to summon as many elementals as you want is worth it. |
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Aug 23 2006, 02:31 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 5-December 05 From: Crying in the wilderness Member No.: 8,047 |
Or just pay a little more protection money and be protected? Then you don't have to run a big area of the barrens and sleep with your weapon focus under your pillow. Ok the last point is pointless we all sleep with our weapon focus under our pillow.
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Aug 23 2006, 02:50 PM
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#37
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
What about those dual-natured screaming slug-things that Deus used to reinforce his doors? Does anybody think that those would start seeing wider use in the military to protect vehicles and bunkers?
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Aug 23 2006, 04:48 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 152 Joined: 11-May 06 Member No.: 8,547 |
if your going to spend 15 billion $$ on a war machine your going to place some decent wards on it, something spirits won't overcome.
I remember reading about tanks having full on warding for wars for just that reason. Also I remember reading that mages on astral patrol or serving as the reserves for potential magical threats. if you were a general and had as much money as you wanted, what would you do with it? for spirits manifesting, I typically follow that they manifest within X meters of shaman etc... if they are moving fast its like an astral leash. if they are told to manifest inside a vehicle that has no warding, they can manifest given they have the space to do so, the greater the force, the greater the size in my games. so for that jet cockpit, its not very possible to squeeze an elemental in that confined space. On the other hand they'd definitely be warding the glass to prevent spells from affecting there billion nuyen jet. |
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Aug 23 2006, 11:02 PM
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#39
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Maybe you do. (proud owner of a force 4 pillow weapon focus) |
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Aug 24 2006, 04:56 AM
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#40
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Toxic shamans laugh at your domain restrictions. |
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Aug 24 2006, 03:55 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 584 Joined: 23-July 03 From: outside America Member No.: 5,015 |
If there is only enough physical space for the rigger, then there is no free space for a materialised spirit. However a fire elemental doesn't really occupy a volume, a lot like a bonfire doesn't really have a volume. Same for an air elemental. Gas has no fixed volume. A water elemental has a fixed volume but no fixed shape, so it can fill up any available space in the vehicle. If it has the engulf power it can completely surround the rigger and possibly try to occupy the space he is taking up as part of its engulf. Note though that Shrapnel and hyzmarca are the only people talking about materialised spirits. Everyone else is talking about manifesting spirits, which are only present on the astral plane but visible in the minds of living creatures, thus they occupy no volume on the physical plane at all and cannot interact with it in any way. |
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Aug 24 2006, 04:17 PM
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#42
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Manifested spirits also can't harm anyone unless the target is the summoner or a voodoo serviter bound to the summoner. I really don't think that a magician would send an elemental into his own tank to kill himself. The term manifest was used incorrectly. As for the volume of a spirit, I'd say that they so have a fixed volume and they can't just materialize unless they have the space to do so. |
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Aug 24 2006, 07:52 PM
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#43
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Except when we're talking about shadowrunners, where about a half of the working population is awakened (and hence my problem). On the flip side, any group which doesn't have millions of nuyen available to pay for a handful of mages is pretty much a big fat target to anyone else. Now I could see making every mage eligible for citizenship via corporate sponsorship, and therefore every PC mage has to have a good reason not to work, or otherwise make magic more expenisve at chargen.
That is an interesting idea (although directly contradicted by canon). I'd consider that.
I could see this working if the chance of the elemental eating you or the material cost was much, much higher. Although then that reduces the chances of elementals being used for any purpose, so I'm a little iffy on that. Yeah, I think it's time to bring in Deus' slugs for instant warding. After fifty years, someone somewhere would have developed a cheap way to fight mages (having another mage is not cheap, BTW). Oh, just to nitpick, Lilith, the weapon setup you mentioned earlier is not legal out of chargen. There are no MMGs with an avail less than 18, and the tripod I believe has an avail of 10. Amd as has been pointed out, that STILL can't kill tanks. |
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Aug 25 2006, 09:44 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 5-December 05 From: Crying in the wilderness Member No.: 8,047 |
Ok you want cheap but effective ways to stop a spirit.
Use smoke grenades. Smoke and mist carry over into the astral the primary method of vision for a spirit. They carn't attack it if they carn't see it. Most tanks have smoke dispensers and there cheap in comparison to warding everything, so you still maintain game reality. As to my domain point, "To reduce spirits pulling the materialising in the vehicle trick enforce the domains rules for shamans and count the inside of the vehicle as a hearth domain. Unless he can see into the vehicle he carn't summon a spirit." Thats cannon, save the shaman would have to be IN the tank. A spirit effecting the tank and it occupants via its powers, as the tank is presumably in its domain, is possible. Materialising within it is not. |
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Aug 26 2006, 04:29 AM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
Remember the old Rigger Black Book and the final entry about the tank that gets cut off just as it mentions something about paranormal armour?
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