 More SR4 Questions, Mostly on magic, but other stuff too. |
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 Aug 22 2006, 07:47 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 23-May 06 Member No.: 8,592  |
I have some questions on rules that we have a hard time settling.
1) Any problems invisibility-casting on a vehicle or drone? Object resistance should not apply, since the target of the spell does not resist it, but the viewers of the target. 2) Improved invisibility and cameras: Is this a mater of object resistance (in which case you need force 4), or a matter of a spell resisted by the guy or program looking at the picture through the camera? I see the former as a matter of the spell being a binary "You see him, or you don't", the later being a matter of "You see a wavering outline/can notice places where the invisibility spell isn't perfect?" Since this is a physical spell, I would assume it is the later, and the onus (with a hefty negative) is on the person viewing through the camera. 3) Do reflex enhancements offer riggers any benefit when jumped into a drone? If they are using matrix initiative.. 4) How visible in the astral plane is having a spell active? Being a mage? Casual scan, or does it require a examine in depth? (might be able to look these up). 5) How close does a spirit have to be to use its powers? How visible are the powers when being used? How visible are spirits in the astral? is a spirit concealing me utterly useless if there is a mage on the opposing team? (My opinion: yes). 6) Hacking a comlink: As I understand it, a comlink is a persona. The PAN is the location that you can hack into, governed by the comlink. If an alert is raised, almos tevery PAN will alert the bearer of the comlink that 'hey, something is going on.' 7) Hacking doors: how often are doors connected to the matrix? Maglock doors? Just logs, or can you open them up too? |
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Aug 22 2006, 08:04 PM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
To affect an object you have to overcome the object resistance. I don't have a book handy though, so I can't be positive.
Resisted by the object.
No. Physical initiative enhancers are useless in full VR or jumped in mode.
Just looking will show you all astral presences, including spells.
Distance needed to maintain powers is undefined, although they need line of sight to start it. Spirits are as visible as anything else on the astral plane. Concealment from spirits doesn't go away just because there is a mage nearby.
I'd say they're almost never connected to the wireless matrix, but would frequently be connected to a hardlined security system. The level of connection would depend on the facilty, although it would normall be set so they can be opened (or more importantly closed) by remote security personell. |
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Aug 22 2006, 08:30 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
A door might be WiFi if it scans personel badges as they walk up to it. They also might be Wifi if they need to patch into the local security net but the owner didn't want to take the time and expense to run the hidden wires.
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Aug 22 2006, 08:41 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
This is correct.
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Aug 22 2006, 09:28 PM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 23-May 06 Member No.: 8,592 |
Why? As the rules describe it, object resistance is used in resisted tests, in lieu of the object making a resisted roll. When you cast invisibility on someone, it is NOT a resisted test against the person you cast it on. I don't resist you casting invisibility on me, other people trying to SEE me resist my invisibility spell by rolling perception with a threshold of my hits. If the target of the spell would not normally resist the spell, why would object resistance come into play? My reading of the rules does not suggest this. Object resistance is only mentioned when talking about resisted spells. |
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Aug 22 2006, 09:39 PM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
The only response I have to that post is "don't bother trying to rationalize magic, especially SR illusions." If that's the sort of thing you're into a search for Illusion, Invisibility, or Physical Mask will point you to a plethora of threads from all editions trying to wrangle a unified system out of the SR illusion rules. My advice is to just use the rules exactly as written. They work that way just fine. |
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Aug 22 2006, 09:42 PM
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#7
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
The default option is that all spells are resisted, you as a sentient can choose not to resist a spell (in most cases) and while you'd be nuts to do that to a hostile powerbolt more than likely you will choose not to resist an invisibility in most circumstances. Objects do not have the option to choose not to resist a spell, the object resistance is always on, sort of a magical inertia that must be overcome. |
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Aug 22 2006, 09:42 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 451 Joined: 8-May 06 Member No.: 8,533 |
Except when the rules blatantly contradict themselves (like whether or not adepts get mentor spirits) or when they produce effects too unrealistic to be acceptable due to oversimplification.
That said, I agree. Don't bother trying to rationalize it. I guarantee that if they ever figure it out, whatever you've come up with is wrong. |
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Aug 22 2006, 09:50 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 28-July 05 Member No.: 7,526 |
using object resistance is the best for everybody... by the time the image gets recorded on disc or viewed by someone electronically, the effect needs to be set in stone, resisted or unresisted. Two people aren't going to look at a recorded image, and one person clearly see a metahuman and another see an empty hall; otherwise the data would be magically enchanted with the spell and we know that's just not true :cyber: Spell resistance in this case needs to end at the camera recording the image.
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Aug 22 2006, 09:51 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
Rules as Written, to affect an Object you need to meet or beat the treshold from the Object Resistance Table. Therefore, to cast Invisibility on an object, you need to achieve enough hits to meet or beat the treshold. However, hits, not net hits determine the effectiveness of the Invisibility spell.
Logically, you need to beat the Object Resistance treshold because non-living objects do not resist spells. Since the target of Invisibility does not resist the spell, the Object Resistance threshold should not apply. As for the camera, the camera is the observer, not the people watching TV. Therefore if the caster gets enough hits to meet or beat the camera's threshold (which will 4 or higher), then the camera can't see the invisble target and thus cannot convey visual information about him. |
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Aug 22 2006, 10:11 PM
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#11
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Target Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 23-May 06 Member No.: 8,592 |
I am curious where you find this in the rules as written... I could quite possibly be reading them wrong, but at the moment I cannot find this. Only that objects, when they would resist, instead use object resistance. |
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Aug 22 2006, 10:13 PM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 23-May 06 Member No.: 8,592 |
Or you can consider 'noticing someone affected by improved invisibility' to be 'noticing the strange visual oddities left by an imperfect spell bending light.' In this case, the camera would faithfully record the visual oddities and could later be analyzed. I find it entirely strange to think of two people looking at an improved invisible person, one of them seeing nothing, the other seeing the person plain as day. I may be deviating from the rules here, and I'm trying to ask about the RaW. |
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Aug 22 2006, 10:19 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,076 Joined: 31-August 05 From: Rock Hill, SC Member No.: 7,655 |
Physical spells cast on non-living objects are never resisted (as in, they never roll Body or Willpower or any other relevant attribute or skill to reduce the hits/net hits on the spellcasting test.) However, the spellcasting attempt has to meet or exceed the THRESHOLD of the object before any effect is made. This means you have to get 3 hits on an improved invisibility test to fool a camera, and you have to get 4+ hits to cast powerbolt on a drone or vehicle.
The term for the Threshold you have to beat is called Object Resistance, but it's a bit of a misnomer, as the object never resists. It's merely how tough it is to get the desired effect on the non-living object due to how processed and 'unnatural' it is. |
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Aug 22 2006, 10:20 PM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,076 Joined: 31-August 05 From: Rock Hill, SC Member No.: 7,655 |
That is what the RaW say. If I get 3 hits in my improved invisibility spell, and you resist with 4 hits, but your buddy resists with only 2 hits, then you see me, but your friend doesn't. Simple. |
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Aug 22 2006, 10:23 PM
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#15
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Simple in rules, convoluted in logic. Hence the "don't try to rationalize magic" approach. :)
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Aug 22 2006, 10:24 PM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,076 Joined: 31-August 05 From: Rock Hill, SC Member No.: 7,655 |
Well, that's what I meant. One is as good as the other. :) |
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Aug 22 2006, 11:03 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
Page 174. It says spells cast on objects need to meet or beat the threshold, not if they would be resisted. :) |
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Aug 23 2006, 03:00 AM
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#18
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Target Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 23-May 06 Member No.: 8,592 |
I'll start a new topic on this, cause it's important. |
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Aug 23 2006, 03:58 AM
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#19
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Target Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 14-July 06 Member No.: 8,888 |
Hmm, here's a related question. Does a corpse count as an object for such purposes? Say you want to conceal a corpse with invisibility, would any attached bioware or cyberware make the resistance threshold more difficult?
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Aug 23 2006, 04:34 AM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,076 Joined: 31-August 05 From: Rock Hill, SC Member No.: 7,655 |
I thought about this myself a couple days ago, and my thoughts were that corpses qualify as non-living objects, though they would have an EXTREMELY low Object Resistance (more than likely a 1) due to the fact that they're mostly biological. Now if it's some borg character or otherwise riced out sam, I'd probably raise that a bit, using GM fiat and gut intuition. Actually the idea of watching somebody die via the astral is a bit scary to me. One second you're looking at the aura of a living thing. The aura fades, and what you see is the black silhouette of their corpse hitting the ground. :( |
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Aug 23 2006, 06:40 AM
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#21
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
heh, sounds like what apple wants to make people think happens when you remove the ipod earbuds from a persons ears...
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Aug 23 2006, 11:05 AM
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#22
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Improved Invisibilty against cameras, vehicle or drone sensors uses Object Resistance. The important thing with invisibility spells (and any other Illusion spell) is to figure out what "target" is being fooled by the illusion. The target of an illusion is always whatever/whoever is directly perceiving the illusion. With normal Invisibility the target is any living being able to perceive/sense the illusion. Improved Invisibility extends the effect (making it physical) to any electronic or digital sensors that would be otherwise unaffected by a mana spell. Cyberware (specifically cybereyes) having been paid for with Essence are considered a holistic part of a living character and hence only normal Invisibility is needed to fool the viewer. Other (non-implanted) visual technological sensors, be they a wall-mounted camera, a drone's sensor suite or a vehicle's basic sensors use Object Resistance – ie. if the sensor (the target of the spell) fails to pierce the illusion, the person linking to the sensor has no idea the image he is seeing is the illusion. If no one is observing through the sensor (such as an automated drone using Pilot) the sensor is still fooled.
No. When using VR to “jump into” drones and vehicles a rigger uses his Matrix initiative. Physical initiative enhancements have no effect on full VR immersion.
Any active magical aura is clearly visible as such on the astral (unless Masked). See under Auras and Astral Forms p.181-182 SR4. The successes required to gleam detailed information on the subjects of Assensing are detailed under Astral Perception (p.182 and chart on p. 183 of SR4). and environmental modifiers are expanded in Street Magic’s Astral Space chapter.
The simple answers are: in most case LOS to employ a power (see power descriptions for ranges); as visible as any spell or active magical presence; see Auras and Astral Forms on p.182; and, pretty much, since it is a physical power (unless of course the magician is target by the power on the physical in which case he gets the same modifiers as everyone else – ie. even in the astral he’ll have difficulty “locking on”). |
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Aug 23 2006, 01:54 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 28-July 05 Member No.: 7,526 |
Yeah I think one way or the other, some suspension of disbelief will need to be applied. If you want to do it the way you describe, thats cool, but you may just want to apply some of previous editions' rules to it since it sounds a lot more like a perception check as opposed to spell resistance. People analyzing a pre-recorded image for sure is a perception check (or other relevant video analysis skill). |
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Aug 23 2006, 03:23 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 6-August 02 From: Kiel, Germany Member No.: 3,071 |
the downside is that spirits can shortcut via metaplanes in such a setup... Since teh are within is technically not warded...
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Aug 23 2006, 03:33 PM
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#25
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Any GM who allows that deserves what he gets. :)
There are some ways to work around it without completely banning it, but unrestricted use of metaplanar shortcuts means that anyone capable of summoning high force spirits is a force to be reckoned with on a global scale. If you don't want to ban it outright, perhaps restricting it to "spirits can go where they've been or where they're summoned" could work. another option would be that normal wards also block off the metaplanes to anyone not attuned to the ward. So the security mage can summon his buddies inside, but if a runner team wants spirits available they'll have to come in with them astrally or physically. |
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