 SmartGun Perspective, Visibility mods on Indirect fire |
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 Aug 24 2006, 03:48 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717  |
My GM last game had a little trouble deciding what visibility modifiers to apply to a PC firing at a target using his SmartGun camera to aim.
The opponent was under a table and the PC was standing. The PC, without dropping low enough to actually see the guy, fired on him. At first we were going to say it was blind-fire, but then we remembered his smartcam. The PC could see him, but the GM said that the angle and perspective of the camera would be so awkward that firing this way would be almost as disorienting as trying to shoot blind. Should Blind-fire's Intuition rule stay in effect while using SmartGun for indirect fire? What mods apply, according to the rules, to such a situation? Looking through the book, I'm stumped. :( |
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Aug 24 2006, 03:54 AM
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#2
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Target Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 20-September 05 Member No.: 7,764 |
the presence of the cross hair in your sight i would think would negate the blind fire part, even with any awkward position from not stooping to the target's level. anyone can line a cross hair up on something and pull the trigger. it might be more acceptable to apply penalties to the subsequent shots due to the weapon's kick putting you in a weird position.
i mean, isnt that how the guys in the airforce with the remote planes do things? line em up and take the picture? (course i am in no way a military buff, i only know that remote control planes exist in that branch because a friend of mine is currently serving and that is his job). |
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Aug 24 2006, 04:02 AM
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#3
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
That's the take we have on it. If you can assimilate it thinking of it as just "a video game" then it makes sence you wouldn't inherit any other penalties. Maybe using a Free Action to change perspectives or something if you are looking to model that disorientation that might occur. |
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Aug 24 2006, 04:23 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Our GM explained how he thought the shooting worked. He said that there would be a window in your field of vision that shows the camera feed and that any crosshairs would be shown there. Think of it as Picture in Picture. Off to the side. Shooting in some tiny window in your feild of veiw would be disorienting because you're shooting as if you're the camera.
I thought of it as integrated into what you're veiwing. Like the camera filling in the gaps of what's going on under the table as if you're seeing through the table. The crosshairs would be shown projected onto this hybrid veiw. Is my interpretation right, or his? |
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Aug 24 2006, 04:33 AM
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#5
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
This is a neat idea, but I don't think it's what happens since the SGL feed would be a different angle altogether. I suppose you could say the SGL does that sort of thing and hence the +2 dice bonus, but in the case of "Gun-Cam", I think your GM has the more accurate interpretation. |
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Aug 24 2006, 05:21 AM
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#6
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
The way I'd handle it is to allow a free action mode-change to go from guncam window being a tiny picture-in-picture in the corner of your field of view, to being a large window, preventing you from seeing anything but guncam footage.
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Aug 24 2006, 07:23 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 341 Joined: 3-October 05 Member No.: 7,802 |
The way I read it was that the smartgun link puts crosshairs on your normal view, along with what it thinks are targets being highlighted. I could imagine the smartlink in the cyber eyes or wherever having some sort of perspective correction system built in, and it's how it sounds in the fluff.
I would imagine three possibilities: First you are firing at a highlight which is imposed over the table, but not likely 2 you need to close your eyes and let the camera view take over 3 You need to actively pull up the camera view That's assuming there's enough light under the table to shoot. |
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Aug 24 2006, 11:20 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 565 Joined: 7-January 04 Member No.: 5,965 |
hes behind a table? go to the cover rules. if he has full cover, the penalty is as bad as blind-fire.
if you get a gun camera (not just a smartgun link), then that can give you the cameras LOS for visibility- such as shooting under tables. The SGL by itself simply tells you where in your feild of view the gun is pointing at. now whats around a corner or under a table. |
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Aug 24 2006, 11:36 AM
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#9
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
As SmartGun features a camera as default in SR4. |
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Aug 24 2006, 03:30 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 366 Joined: 9-August 06 From: Holiday Florida Member No.: 9,055 |
Hmmm.....this sounds like an interesting concept for a piece of gear, as sort of vision systems multiplexer. I'll write up rules and put it on my site tonight. I like this! Samael's Ghost: If you want credit for this on the site, and a character quote attatched to it, PM me! |
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Aug 24 2006, 03:54 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 28-July 05 Member No.: 7,526 |
Don't let your GM impose blind fire for that shot. You can definitely use your smartgun cam to make targeted shots around obstacles. I would say the cam feed is a 2D image displayed in a window in your vision though. I don't think the camera feed will fill in gaps in your vision, though it will project a dot or crosshairs where you're currently aiming through the table. I would agree with your GM that it would be a bit disorienting but not on the level of blind fire. You wouldn't get your str bonus for recoil reduction and any uncompensated recoil might be magnified at gm's discretion, depending on how you have to hold the weapon. |
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Aug 24 2006, 05:40 PM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 64 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,812 |
This is how the military currently use cameras mounted on guns: You have a view finder that goes over one of your eyes that gives you the feed from the camera. This way your just swing your rifle around a corner to see what is there. Most camera guns are not used for firing, just t osee what is around the corner.
But then this games takes place 65 years from now and anything is possible. |
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Aug 24 2006, 06:17 PM
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#13
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
I don't think any special equipment is needed to image real locations of targets. You can tag things in AR pretty much for free, so getting that data and displaying it isn't a problem.
An example that came up was a target hiding behind a wall. A microdrone snuck around and spotted the target, broadcasting the target's location on the team's AR. The target then got the extra protection from the wall, but not blindfire, since he was outlined on everyone's imagelink. Of course, one couldn't cast spells on him. As for firing around corners, if I was the GM, I'd impose a double recoil penalty on the shooter, and take away recoil compensation for things like shockpads. |
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Aug 24 2006, 07:34 PM
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#14
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
A situation like that (a drone spotting a target) would get the -6 blind fire modifier, but a +3 AR modifier. I'd be inclined to do something similar for smartguns fired around corners.
The other option would be that you could simply remove the smartgun bonus if the smartcam is being used to fire, rather than as an aid to normal firing. |
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Aug 24 2006, 08:03 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 31-July 06 From: Denmark Member No.: 8,995 |
I think we can fairly easily assume that your AR has the ability to present the guncam image big and clear in the center of your vision if that's what you want, and even place it on the gun and contort it so the "image plane" was perpendicular to firing direction if that helps you control it.
As to how awkward this would be, just test it. Take your digital camera or phone camera and try aiming around corners with. It's not really awkward aiming at all. Impose the firing from cover modifier -1, and perhaps another -1 because you can't really get a good firing position. Blind fire, no way IMO. |
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Aug 24 2006, 08:38 PM
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#16
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 21-July 06 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 8,936 |
I agree with your second idea. You can see the target, but you are lacking depth perception. Therefore you should be able to fire just fine, but like you said, minus the +2 dice bonus for smartlink. FutureWeapons on Discovery had something similar. The Israelis are producing articulating weapons with gun cams to enable soldiers to fire around corners. Cool stuff, but no way is using the gun cam as effective as physically firing the gun like normal. See it here: http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/futurewe...o/photo_02.html |
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Aug 24 2006, 08:48 PM
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#17
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
A smartgun features a range finder, too. |
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Aug 24 2006, 09:41 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 28-July 05 Member No.: 7,526 |
I thought of that too, but I think it's meant to be a standard weapon rangefinder, distance to wherever your glowing dot is, as opposed to cone-shaped radar or ultrasound "depth map" that you could overlay your 2D camera image onto. Now THAT would be seeing through walls with AR. |
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Aug 24 2006, 09:41 PM
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#19
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 21-July 06 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 8,936 |
But a range finder is simply a number you use to reference a guestimate on how far up or down you tilt the barrel. That is hardly equivelent to the use of your depth perception.
Grab a pistol. Close one eye. Have someone tell you that your target is 20 meters away. Can you use that "20 meters" to adjust for distance as equally well as simply opening up your closed eye? I know I couldn't. Nor 99% of the rest of the population on earth. (Because that other 1% are probably freaks of nature anyways.) I could consider the use of the range finder and a 2d image as equivelent as normal depth perception. Therefore, no bonus dice from the smartlink. The smartlink would thus simply prevent any further negatives. |
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Aug 24 2006, 09:43 PM
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#20
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
With that number (and, given the processin possibilities of 2070), it is no real problem to (re)create a 3D-Footage from a camera, especially in a world were trideo is the standard. [E]s/recrreate/(re)create[/E] |
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Aug 24 2006, 09:48 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 28-July 05 Member No.: 7,526 |
I think that's definitely possible in shadowrun, I dunno if a smartgun can do it though. |
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Aug 24 2006, 10:07 PM
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#22
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
At the vast majority of handgun ranges, you don't need to compensate for range. Travel time and bullet drop at 20 meters are almost nonexistent. Rangefinders are more beneficial when you start talking about shooting at targets over a hundred meters away, when things like deflection shooting (leading a moving target) become an issue. Honestly, the loss of the smartgun bonus sounds like the best idea. The vast majority of "trigger time," even in a world with guncams, would be spent firing using the normal sights with the smartgun helping out due to the fact that the postures that use the sights also happen to be some of the best postures for controlling the weapon and firing accurately. The minute you start watching a screen and moving a point around rather than lining up your sights, you're doing something different. If you were doing this from behind cover, you'd also get the -1 "shooting from behind cover" mod. Small price to pay, IMO, for being able to shoot someone behind you through a small cut in your jacket, or to stick your gun up over the crate you're behind and not have it considered blind fire. |
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Aug 24 2006, 10:23 PM
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#23
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
this is completely erroneous. firing a weapon at any range beyond point-blank requires orders of magnitude of orders of magnitude more precision than taking a picture. breathing incorrectly will throw off your aim on otherwise easy shots. firing around a corner, you've got to contort your wrist in ways that make it less than a stable firing platform; your sight picture is going to be wobbling all over the place. furthermore, most of the training and shooting experience people get is done while firing their weapon the same way, over and over again. firing your weapon in a different way is going to put a real damper on your ability to aim correctly. |
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Aug 24 2006, 10:30 PM
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#24
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Lots of discussion on this here:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...737&hl=smartgun |
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Aug 24 2006, 10:48 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 132 Joined: 24-August 05 From: Luxembourg, Luxembourg Member No.: 7,611 |
It's possible I'm wrong. I remember watching a rifle competition where they used open sights. Many of the competitors had glasses that blacked out one eye and had a limiting field of vision for the eye they were using. If I remember correctly they were shooting at 200yds. I also know that Sammy Davis Jr. was a spectacular shooter. With this in mind I'm not sure how much negative impact, if any, lack of depth perception has on real shooting. In SR it could be entirely different though. |
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