IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

6 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Invincible Troll, Help with an annoying player/character
Masterofthegame
post Aug 26 2006, 04:31 AM
Post #1


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 75
Joined: 4-May 02
From: Austin, TX
Member No.: 2,684



Okay, I have a problem. I have a troll in my group that has become truly obnoxious, and the last time he played kind of put it over the edge. He's so tough that the group has been sending him into fights alone, and just giving him cover.

Without specifically targeting him with high-force spirits or something I'm not sure how to realistically make him aware that he's not all-powerful. He doesn't even have a huge amount of Karma. 30 or 40 maybe. The problem is that he has a high body and high willpower, coupled with great armor and the group mage counterspelling he's nearly invincible. Follow that up with a quick improved invisibility, and he's nigh-unstoppable.

Add in a combat axe, Ares Alpha, and a Ruger super warhawk, and he's a killing machine. In the last game he got a lucky shot against a Citymaster with his warhawk, stopping it in its tracks, and then killed everyone inside when the troops came out to fight him. His high force invis made him almost impossible to hit, and his armor stopped anything that did hit. Between the mage's counterspells and his willpower, not even the old manabolt works.

He's so convinced that he has the ultimate character build that it has gotten obnoxious. All he ever does is talk about how he constantly saves the team.

So, what do I do? I know there is always the spirit option, and I've used it, which forced the team adept to actually get out and do something, but short of swarming him every time he gets out of the car, nothing seems to scare him.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
yesman
post Aug 26 2006, 04:37 AM
Post #2


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 79
Joined: 18-September 05
Member No.: 7,758



bad guy sammy stick-n-shocks the mage that's counterspelling for the troll, then the bad guy mage geeks the troll with manabolts.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
laughingowl
post Aug 26 2006, 05:07 AM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 615
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,895



SR3 may be bleeding over to SR4 ...

But isn't that quickened spell just a visible neon light glaring as a sustained foci. So having somebody attack and destroy the quickened spell would help some. Or just force him to pass through a high rating ward (lodge).


Well from the descriptions no mention of full chemsuit/gas mask (and if worn regularly attract ALOT of attention).

Look at layering penalties.

Many checmical have effect even if they are 'resisted' (dice penalties etc).

A Pepper punch grenade (if allowed), a CS grenade, a nausea grenade while with his body/will probbably will not 'drop' him certainly should stack up some nice dice pool penalties.

Also electricity is always nice.

Let the enemies learn the parties MO. If the party always lets IT go in and smash, while the cover from back. Let the opponents lay a trap a few explosives, several drones, a lot of smoke and noise (and radio jammers) keep IT busy while the rest of the guards circle round to deal with the 'support'. One support is taken out opposing magic can deal with IT nicely.

If the 'star' remember killing (or even incapicitating) aint the only thing he has to worry about.

RFID tags, 'dye' grenades, bright neon pink foam glue grenades all can lead to be traced/followed/tracked which means 'copter and drones gunning for you.


Then the old standbye, sounds like he would have a very noticable street rep.... have a few copy cat mimicks. Other 'almost like him' trolls that start letting him take credit (and blame) for their actions..

If all else fails....

LPT2 (Large P-Offed Troll 2) get hassles one too many times, because of some 'joker' causing problems and LPT2 takes the heat.

LPT2 (exact same stats as Invicible Troll) starts following IT around. Next time IT starts combat LPT2 delays his action to go last and then opens up on IT. See if IT can take the same hits he can put out.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
FanGirl
post Aug 26 2006, 05:15 AM
Post #4


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 684
Joined: 8-April 06
From: My dorm room
Member No.: 8,438



A munchkin, eh? What kind of negative qualities does IT have? He must have an Achilles' heel, and you would do well to find it and smash it into tiny little heel-bone shards. That's what I'd try to do. ;)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
laughingowl
post Aug 26 2006, 05:20 AM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 615
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,895



Also on the 'group mage hands back and counterspelling'

SR4 isn't counterspelling strictly LOS, so the mage has to be in sight (if not in melee) of the fight. If he hangs back to far, cause something to break LOS, if he is close enough that aint likely have somebody go for HIM.


A team working together can be almost un-beatable. UNLESS the opponents can justifably work together as well to exploit any weakness and then pound it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Samaels Ghost
post Aug 26 2006, 05:23 AM
Post #6


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 984
Joined: 15-June 06
Member No.: 8,717



Don't forget wards and spirits. Spirits may not be able to take out your Troll, but a smart summoner will know that the invincible troll needs a mage to counterspell for him. Even if the spirit doesn't kill the team mage, the mage won't be able to counter-spell for him while distracted.

Also, keep in mind your mage has to be LOS to counterspell for Troll-boy. That puts him in a dangerous situation.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Liminaut
post Aug 26 2006, 05:46 AM
Post #7


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 20
Joined: 8-February 06
Member No.: 8,243



Smoke.

Nothing fancy, just have a drone start dropping smoke grenades on the covering team. Presto, no more covering fire. No more LOS for counterspelling. And I don't think Mr. Troll is invisible any more.

There's a pretty good chance he'll do OK in the fight, but this way he'll have to work for it.


And you know what? This is even modern day, bog-standard military tactics. Smoke 'em if you got em.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
WhiskeyMac
post Aug 26 2006, 05:54 AM
Post #8


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 433
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Somewhere in Iraq
Member No.: 1,789



I had this exact same type of character in my game back in my SR3 days as GM. He even went further and wanted to get custom made backpack fed assault rifles built into forearm guards. He was my splitting headache everytime we played.

How I dealt with him: :nuyen: . Make it so any deaths, any at all, will result in them not getting payed. Non-lethal methods only, otherwise bad rep and no Johnsons will hire them for ANY runs. After awhile he stopped killing everything he saw on a run.

After that I started using ice sheet to make him less melee, drones and smoke to make him less bum-rushy (is that a word?), and AOE fireballs for effect.

With this guy, just have everyone use Ultrasound. That takes away his invisibility. Have them start packing RFID specific APDS ammo (only their RFIDs will make it work). That takes away his armor. And then have the security mage pop out an elemental on the counterspelling mage. That takes away his anti-magic shield. Then just start beating down.

Also, 2 drones with Ares Alphas would tear his ass open with full-auto long bursts. It's not overpowered, it's "standard" ;)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cabral
post Aug 26 2006, 06:17 AM
Post #9


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 734
Joined: 30-August 05
Member No.: 7,646



Ideas.
First, tactics:
Don't have the mage attack him directly at first, instead have him use dispelling to nix the Invisibility.

If the rest of the team is giving him covering fire, they're great targets for the security team's fire ... especially if the Troll's invisible.

If they've mad a habit of this, security teams/patrols will take note and adjust. Have the every team accompanied by one or two spirits. When they hit, have Spirit/astral reinforcements show up in a few turns and physical reinforcements in a minute or two.

Weapons:
A Monofilament whip's 8P -4 AP is nasty but might just give him ideas.
Instead, try a Defiance EX shocker (8S electrical damage) resisted by half impact.

A Supersquirt with Gamma-Scopolamine can take him right out. he can resist with his many body dice plus any toxin resistance gear, but if he doesn't get 8 hits on the resistance test, he's paralyzed (and at -3 willpower) for an hour. Other toxins (Narcojet is also popular) can be fun too. (see page 245-246)

A Fichetti Pain Inducer is also fairly unpleasant. If the modified power is over his Willpower he has to run away.

Spells:
An Astral perceiving mage can ignore his invisibility and cast:
Acid spells which will leave a noxious cloud around the troll.

Decrease Attribute (Intelligence, Logic, or Charisma) which is resisted by the attribute decreases (+counterspelling dice). A 0 Mental attribute means he stands there confused as long as the mage sustains the spell.

Use Phantasm or Trid Phantasm to create Illusionary allies.

Ice Sheet will make it hard for him to stand on his feet and counterspelling won't help.

Use levitate (and sustain it with a sustaining focus) the attack from the air! Fireballs for everyone!

Throw up an Physical Barrier around him to keep him contained until everyone else deals with his friends ...

My suggestion is to step things up for a few games; beef up armor and weapons (maybe have one LMG equipped officer in each citymaster squad), as well as adding the spirit/astral support. Maybe bump the iniation of your security mages one grade.

If that doesn't slow them down, have them tagged by a "hit squad". Some Prime Runners equiped with nice gear, including gamma-scopolamine loaded squirt guns. They hit the team between runs or while doing legwork. Have the players taken down and paralyzed then hauled off. Repeat dossage if necessary. Have these Prime Runners explain that it's great that they can do be so bold, but they shouldn't. Tell them that it's raising security accross the board and that if they don't cool off, security will keep escalating and the corps will start sending hit teams after your players.

Then perhaps they say they've got great potential if the can manage to be more subtle. All the while being annonymous. (If the PCs try to get revenge, go ahead, say they're Azzies ... Nobody cares if you kill an Azzie anyway)

If you think they've learned from the esxperience, give them an extra two or three karma points at the end of the adventure.

Of course, I may be too nice as a GM ...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Charon
post Aug 26 2006, 07:21 AM
Post #10


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,011
Joined: 15-February 05
From: Montréal, QC, Canada
Member No.: 7,087



He stopped a Citymaster with a Warhawk?

Armor 20, Body 16? That Citymaster?

How the hell did you let that fly? It's basically an APC. First of all there is no way the DV exceeded the armor so the bullet should have glanced harmlessly. And even if you did make the roll, how can 36 dice possibly not be enough to resist a single bullet?!

If you let him get away with that kind of crap, then my first advice is... Stop letting him get away with that kind of crap!

---

Soldiers aren't stupidly going to charge a tough invisble enemy. first order of business is staying alive, taking cover and spotting the enemy. If the force in presence can't do it, they'll call for backup while withdrawing to a safe location as best they can.

Backup can come in the form of an astrally projecting mage in seconds and that will means spirit.

But remember that invisibility work on the visual spectrum. So unless the Troll also has hush active, you can get him with Ultrasound. No matter what, there is at least that and they'll only get -3 to shoot instead of -6.

If the troll is taking cover (bringing the penalties to -7) and shooting at the soldiers, they'll stay on the defensive, get great cover (or even stay out of sight as long as the team as a whole can keep a visual on the troll through a single spotter or a drone for example) and wait for even more backup to arrives. Drones. SWAT. The full monty. They aren't in a hurry ; your PCs are!

If the troll is moving in the open to flush them out, they'll fire at him repeatedly. Concentrated fire. You get -1 for every additional reaction test you makes since your last action so sooner or later the solider will connect solidly.

If three soldier shoot at the troll in the same phase, that's 6 burst. The last burst are at -4 and -5 to reaction for dodge. They'll hit him. With assault rifle that will be DV 6 + 3 + successes. Don't be affraid to use edge on that last shot, the one where he can't dodge anymore. Make it count. A Red Samurai using Edge, ultrasound and EX round against an invisible troll who is -5 to dodge with reaction 8 could easily end up with DV 16 on a narrow burst (13 dice -3 sight -1 2nd burst +5 edge = roughly 6 success) and -2 AP.

To eliminate that, your troll would need on average 50 dice of Body + Armor. I don't care how twinked out he is, he'll be hurt.

3-4 soldier fighting intelligently is enough to either holdoff your troll until more backup arrive or crush him if he singlehandedly try to flush out the opposition and thus put himself in a crossfire situation where he has little to no cover at close range.

And I haven't touched on what a mage could do
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Samaels Ghost
post Aug 26 2006, 07:55 AM
Post #11


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 984
Joined: 15-June 06
Member No.: 8,717



gamma-scopolamine only paralyzes if the power reduces Reaction to 0. A cybered character probably has Reaction enhancements, so this may not be a great idea.

If the mage is hit, any spells he's sustaining may be dropped. He rolls Body+Willpower (2 or 3) to see if he drops his spells. Keep this in mind for trying to drop the Imp Invisibility.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Samaels Ghost
post Aug 26 2006, 07:58 AM
Post #12


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 984
Joined: 15-June 06
Member No.: 8,717



QUOTE (Charon)
He stopped a Citymaster with a Warhawk?

he probably called a shot to the treads/wheels. Made it immobile. I don't know exactly what I citymaster looks like, but I see a lucky called shot stopping it from moving.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post Aug 26 2006, 08:00 AM
Post #13


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



hmm, where did that -1 pr reaction test come from?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Charon
post Aug 26 2006, 08:01 AM
Post #14


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,011
Joined: 15-February 05
From: Montréal, QC, Canada
Member No.: 7,087



QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
QUOTE (Charon @ Aug 26 2006, 02:21 AM)
He stopped a Citymaster with a Warhawk? 

he probably called a shot to the treads/wheels. Made it immobile. I don't know exactly what I citymaster looks like, but I see a lucky called shot stopping it from moving.

I don't. This is basically a tank.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Samaels Ghost
post Aug 26 2006, 08:03 AM
Post #15


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 984
Joined: 15-June 06
Member No.: 8,717



QUOTE
hmm, where did that -1 pr reaction test come from?


Defender has defended against previous attacks since last action
-1 per additional defense

Defense modifiers table, pg. 151
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post Aug 26 2006, 08:06 AM
Post #16


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



ugh, i realy need to go over those modifier tables with a fine tooth comb...

and that citymaster is more of a APC/IFV but you would atleast expect it to be using run-flat tires ;)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Charon
post Aug 26 2006, 08:06 AM
Post #17


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,011
Joined: 15-February 05
From: Montréal, QC, Canada
Member No.: 7,087



QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 26 2006, 03:00 AM)
hmm, where did that -1 pr reaction test come from?

p.151

defense modifiers table.

Defender has defended against previous attacks since last action : -1 per addtional defense.

That makes charging a group of soldier single handedly an exceptionnally bad idea since the last ones will hit you very hard.

Yet you can't methodically snipe them most of the time ; they are soldiers, you are a runner. They have back up and you don't. They can stay under cover all day and you can't.

So you try to avoid these situations altogether if you know what's good for you.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Samaels Ghost
post Aug 26 2006, 08:06 AM
Post #18


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 984
Joined: 15-June 06
Member No.: 8,717



QUOTE (Charon)
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost @ Aug 26 2006, 02:58 AM)
QUOTE (Charon @ Aug 26 2006, 02:21 AM)
He stopped a Citymaster with a Warhawk? 

he probably called a shot to the treads/wheels. Made it immobile. I don't know exactly what I citymaster looks like, but I see a lucky called shot stopping it from moving.

I don't. This is basically a tank.

I don't know what exactly we're dealing with here. There's no pic in the book. Is there a RL vehicle that I can compare it to?

Thinking about treads, I think a called shot would reduce the speed of the tank, but not stop it completely. Multiple shot would be required to do that.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dissonance
post Aug 26 2006, 08:08 AM
Post #19


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 515
Joined: 19-January 04
Member No.: 5,992



I think that SR3's R3R had a thumbnail sized picture in it. Regardless, I picture a Citymaster as looking like a cross between a garbage truck and an RV circa Mad Max.

Basically, a mobile bunker that is sure to spread warm fuzzies to all and sundry.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Samaels Ghost
post Aug 26 2006, 08:09 AM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 984
Joined: 15-June 06
Member No.: 8,717



Like this?
http://www.mojojets.com/images/trucks/APC-432-01.jpg

Or this?
http://www.badside.freeserve.co.uk/images/ifv-pic.jpg

Which one fits more closely to the Citymaster?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Charon
post Aug 26 2006, 08:12 AM
Post #21


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,011
Joined: 15-February 05
From: Montréal, QC, Canada
Member No.: 7,087



QUOTE (Samaels Ghost @ Aug 26 2006, 03:06 AM)
Thinking about treads, I think a called shot would reduce the speed of the tank, but not stop it completely. Multiple shot would be required to do that.

Not with small arm fire!

A called shot with a panther assault cannon or a LAW, more likely.

As for images, in the old sourcebook there is some.

Street Samurai Catalog (Gool old SR2) hasa riot control vehicle picture based on the citymaster.

Believe me, this ain't stopping for no bullet. Big as a tank, heavily armored. It has 8 wheels but these wheels have more in common with those of a train than an automobile tire.

It's an APC, a 2070 one at that. It takes a missile to seriously dent it.

QUOTE
Like this?
http://www.mojojets.com/images/trucks/APC-432-01.jpg

Or this?
http://www.badside.freeserve.co.uk/images/ifv-pic.jpg

Which one fits more closely to the Citymaster?


Hmm, the bottom one is fairly close. But it's for city ops, it's bumper is close to the ground. The wheels are more protected.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post Aug 26 2006, 08:15 AM
Post #22


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



that last one kinda fits my mental image of it atleast.
or maybe just a armored van equiped to carry police rather then cash...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWAT_van
http://www.swat-truck.com/

i keep getting surprised as to what one can find on wikipedia...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Charon
post Aug 26 2006, 08:19 AM
Post #23


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,011
Joined: 15-February 05
From: Montréal, QC, Canada
Member No.: 7,087



Oh no, it has nothing to do with these SWAT truck image.

It's like a military Armore Personnel Carrier, as I keep repeating.

The description says it has life support and a turret! The old images are pretty close to the second one Hobgoblin posted but as I said it's lower on the ground. It ain't for wilderness use.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post Aug 26 2006, 08:33 AM
Post #24


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



no problem taking a swat van, putting a turret on top and making the cabin have overpressure (and a air filter on the pump) so that nasty gasses and similar cant get in...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Glyph
post Aug 26 2006, 08:46 AM
Post #25


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,116
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,449



Well, at least with his solo act, you don't have to worry about toning down the opposition for the sake of the rest of the team. Now, there are plenty of tactics to use against this character build, but you should also ask yourself how much your games revolve around combat.

If combat is the main thing, then he does have a really good build. But shadowrunning should also involve planning, legwork, and some degree of stealth (a gunfight on the way out or near the goal is one thing, but if you hit the gate shooting, it should usually end poorly). The other players should be doing matrix searches, talking to their contacts, negotiating payment, following leads, and so on.

Even in combat, there should be things for the others to do. The mage is already buffing the troll and providing counterspelling, but the hacker could be trying to shut down the sentry gun with ultrasound sensors, the rigger could be giving the team a bird's eye view of the guard forces from his airborne drone, the face should be getting them past the ferroconcrete guardhouse with fake ids and some fast-talking, etc.

You can challenge the troll more, but you also need to give the rest of the team something useful to do (giving them suggestions if they are relatively new to roleplaying - remember that their characters would have a professional's knowledge), so he doesn't get quite as much of a swollen ego.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

6 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 24th July 2024 - 08:15 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.