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Masterofthegame
Okay, I have a problem. I have a troll in my group that has become truly obnoxious, and the last time he played kind of put it over the edge. He's so tough that the group has been sending him into fights alone, and just giving him cover.

Without specifically targeting him with high-force spirits or something I'm not sure how to realistically make him aware that he's not all-powerful. He doesn't even have a huge amount of Karma. 30 or 40 maybe. The problem is that he has a high body and high willpower, coupled with great armor and the group mage counterspelling he's nearly invincible. Follow that up with a quick improved invisibility, and he's nigh-unstoppable.

Add in a combat axe, Ares Alpha, and a Ruger super warhawk, and he's a killing machine. In the last game he got a lucky shot against a Citymaster with his warhawk, stopping it in its tracks, and then killed everyone inside when the troops came out to fight him. His high force invis made him almost impossible to hit, and his armor stopped anything that did hit. Between the mage's counterspells and his willpower, not even the old manabolt works.

He's so convinced that he has the ultimate character build that it has gotten obnoxious. All he ever does is talk about how he constantly saves the team.

So, what do I do? I know there is always the spirit option, and I've used it, which forced the team adept to actually get out and do something, but short of swarming him every time he gets out of the car, nothing seems to scare him.
yesman
bad guy sammy stick-n-shocks the mage that's counterspelling for the troll, then the bad guy mage geeks the troll with manabolts.
laughingowl
SR3 may be bleeding over to SR4 ...

But isn't that quickened spell just a visible neon light glaring as a sustained foci. So having somebody attack and destroy the quickened spell would help some. Or just force him to pass through a high rating ward (lodge).


Well from the descriptions no mention of full chemsuit/gas mask (and if worn regularly attract ALOT of attention).

Look at layering penalties.

Many checmical have effect even if they are 'resisted' (dice penalties etc).

A Pepper punch grenade (if allowed), a CS grenade, a nausea grenade while with his body/will probbably will not 'drop' him certainly should stack up some nice dice pool penalties.

Also electricity is always nice.

Let the enemies learn the parties MO. If the party always lets IT go in and smash, while the cover from back. Let the opponents lay a trap a few explosives, several drones, a lot of smoke and noise (and radio jammers) keep IT busy while the rest of the guards circle round to deal with the 'support'. One support is taken out opposing magic can deal with IT nicely.

If the 'star' remember killing (or even incapicitating) aint the only thing he has to worry about.

RFID tags, 'dye' grenades, bright neon pink foam glue grenades all can lead to be traced/followed/tracked which means 'copter and drones gunning for you.


Then the old standbye, sounds like he would have a very noticable street rep.... have a few copy cat mimicks. Other 'almost like him' trolls that start letting him take credit (and blame) for their actions..

If all else fails....

LPT2 (Large P-Offed Troll 2) get hassles one too many times, because of some 'joker' causing problems and LPT2 takes the heat.

LPT2 (exact same stats as Invicible Troll) starts following IT around. Next time IT starts combat LPT2 delays his action to go last and then opens up on IT. See if IT can take the same hits he can put out.
FanGirl
A munchkin, eh? What kind of negative qualities does IT have? He must have an Achilles' heel, and you would do well to find it and smash it into tiny little heel-bone shards. That's what I'd try to do. wink.gif
laughingowl
Also on the 'group mage hands back and counterspelling'

SR4 isn't counterspelling strictly LOS, so the mage has to be in sight (if not in melee) of the fight. If he hangs back to far, cause something to break LOS, if he is close enough that aint likely have somebody go for HIM.


A team working together can be almost un-beatable. UNLESS the opponents can justifably work together as well to exploit any weakness and then pound it.
Samaels Ghost
Don't forget wards and spirits. Spirits may not be able to take out your Troll, but a smart summoner will know that the invincible troll needs a mage to counterspell for him. Even if the spirit doesn't kill the team mage, the mage won't be able to counter-spell for him while distracted.

Also, keep in mind your mage has to be LOS to counterspell for Troll-boy. That puts him in a dangerous situation.
Liminaut
Smoke.

Nothing fancy, just have a drone start dropping smoke grenades on the covering team. Presto, no more covering fire. No more LOS for counterspelling. And I don't think Mr. Troll is invisible any more.

There's a pretty good chance he'll do OK in the fight, but this way he'll have to work for it.


And you know what? This is even modern day, bog-standard military tactics. Smoke 'em if you got em.

WhiskeyMac
I had this exact same type of character in my game back in my SR3 days as GM. He even went further and wanted to get custom made backpack fed assault rifles built into forearm guards. He was my splitting headache everytime we played.

How I dealt with him: nuyen.gif . Make it so any deaths, any at all, will result in them not getting payed. Non-lethal methods only, otherwise bad rep and no Johnsons will hire them for ANY runs. After awhile he stopped killing everything he saw on a run.

After that I started using ice sheet to make him less melee, drones and smoke to make him less bum-rushy (is that a word?), and AOE fireballs for effect.

With this guy, just have everyone use Ultrasound. That takes away his invisibility. Have them start packing RFID specific APDS ammo (only their RFIDs will make it work). That takes away his armor. And then have the security mage pop out an elemental on the counterspelling mage. That takes away his anti-magic shield. Then just start beating down.

Also, 2 drones with Ares Alphas would tear his ass open with full-auto long bursts. It's not overpowered, it's "standard" wink.gif
Cabral
Ideas.
First, tactics:
Don't have the mage attack him directly at first, instead have him use dispelling to nix the Invisibility.

If the rest of the team is giving him covering fire, they're great targets for the security team's fire ... especially if the Troll's invisible.

If they've mad a habit of this, security teams/patrols will take note and adjust. Have the every team accompanied by one or two spirits. When they hit, have Spirit/astral reinforcements show up in a few turns and physical reinforcements in a minute or two.

Weapons:
A Monofilament whip's 8P -4 AP is nasty but might just give him ideas.
Instead, try a Defiance EX shocker (8S electrical damage) resisted by half impact.

A Supersquirt with Gamma-Scopolamine can take him right out. he can resist with his many body dice plus any toxin resistance gear, but if he doesn't get 8 hits on the resistance test, he's paralyzed (and at -3 willpower) for an hour. Other toxins (Narcojet is also popular) can be fun too. (see page 245-246)

A Fichetti Pain Inducer is also fairly unpleasant. If the modified power is over his Willpower he has to run away.

Spells:
An Astral perceiving mage can ignore his invisibility and cast:
Acid spells which will leave a noxious cloud around the troll.

Decrease Attribute (Intelligence, Logic, or Charisma) which is resisted by the attribute decreases (+counterspelling dice). A 0 Mental attribute means he stands there confused as long as the mage sustains the spell.

Use Phantasm or Trid Phantasm to create Illusionary allies.

Ice Sheet will make it hard for him to stand on his feet and counterspelling won't help.

Use levitate (and sustain it with a sustaining focus) the attack from the air! Fireballs for everyone!

Throw up an Physical Barrier around him to keep him contained until everyone else deals with his friends ...

My suggestion is to step things up for a few games; beef up armor and weapons (maybe have one LMG equipped officer in each citymaster squad), as well as adding the spirit/astral support. Maybe bump the iniation of your security mages one grade.

If that doesn't slow them down, have them tagged by a "hit squad". Some Prime Runners equiped with nice gear, including gamma-scopolamine loaded squirt guns. They hit the team between runs or while doing legwork. Have the players taken down and paralyzed then hauled off. Repeat dossage if necessary. Have these Prime Runners explain that it's great that they can do be so bold, but they shouldn't. Tell them that it's raising security accross the board and that if they don't cool off, security will keep escalating and the corps will start sending hit teams after your players.

Then perhaps they say they've got great potential if the can manage to be more subtle. All the while being annonymous. (If the PCs try to get revenge, go ahead, say they're Azzies ... Nobody cares if you kill an Azzie anyway)

If you think they've learned from the esxperience, give them an extra two or three karma points at the end of the adventure.

Of course, I may be too nice as a GM ...
Charon
He stopped a Citymaster with a Warhawk?

Armor 20, Body 16? That Citymaster?

How the hell did you let that fly? It's basically an APC. First of all there is no way the DV exceeded the armor so the bullet should have glanced harmlessly. And even if you did make the roll, how can 36 dice possibly not be enough to resist a single bullet?!

If you let him get away with that kind of crap, then my first advice is... Stop letting him get away with that kind of crap!

---

Soldiers aren't stupidly going to charge a tough invisble enemy. first order of business is staying alive, taking cover and spotting the enemy. If the force in presence can't do it, they'll call for backup while withdrawing to a safe location as best they can.

Backup can come in the form of an astrally projecting mage in seconds and that will means spirit.

But remember that invisibility work on the visual spectrum. So unless the Troll also has hush active, you can get him with Ultrasound. No matter what, there is at least that and they'll only get -3 to shoot instead of -6.

If the troll is taking cover (bringing the penalties to -7) and shooting at the soldiers, they'll stay on the defensive, get great cover (or even stay out of sight as long as the team as a whole can keep a visual on the troll through a single spotter or a drone for example) and wait for even more backup to arrives. Drones. SWAT. The full monty. They aren't in a hurry ; your PCs are!

If the troll is moving in the open to flush them out, they'll fire at him repeatedly. Concentrated fire. You get -1 for every additional reaction test you makes since your last action so sooner or later the solider will connect solidly.

If three soldier shoot at the troll in the same phase, that's 6 burst. The last burst are at -4 and -5 to reaction for dodge. They'll hit him. With assault rifle that will be DV 6 + 3 + successes. Don't be affraid to use edge on that last shot, the one where he can't dodge anymore. Make it count. A Red Samurai using Edge, ultrasound and EX round against an invisible troll who is -5 to dodge with reaction 8 could easily end up with DV 16 on a narrow burst (13 dice -3 sight -1 2nd burst +5 edge = roughly 6 success) and -2 AP.

To eliminate that, your troll would need on average 50 dice of Body + Armor. I don't care how twinked out he is, he'll be hurt.

3-4 soldier fighting intelligently is enough to either holdoff your troll until more backup arrive or crush him if he singlehandedly try to flush out the opposition and thus put himself in a crossfire situation where he has little to no cover at close range.

And I haven't touched on what a mage could do
Samaels Ghost
gamma-scopolamine only paralyzes if the power reduces Reaction to 0. A cybered character probably has Reaction enhancements, so this may not be a great idea.

If the mage is hit, any spells he's sustaining may be dropped. He rolls Body+Willpower (2 or 3) to see if he drops his spells. Keep this in mind for trying to drop the Imp Invisibility.
Samaels Ghost
QUOTE (Charon)
He stopped a Citymaster with a Warhawk?

he probably called a shot to the treads/wheels. Made it immobile. I don't know exactly what I citymaster looks like, but I see a lucky called shot stopping it from moving.
hobgoblin
hmm, where did that -1 pr reaction test come from?
Charon
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
QUOTE (Charon @ Aug 26 2006, 02:21 AM)
He stopped a Citymaster with a Warhawk? 

he probably called a shot to the treads/wheels. Made it immobile. I don't know exactly what I citymaster looks like, but I see a lucky called shot stopping it from moving.

I don't. This is basically a tank.

Samaels Ghost
QUOTE
hmm, where did that -1 pr reaction test come from?


Defender has defended against previous attacks since last action
-1 per additional defense

Defense modifiers table, pg. 151
hobgoblin
ugh, i realy need to go over those modifier tables with a fine tooth comb...

and that citymaster is more of a APC/IFV but you would atleast expect it to be using run-flat tires wink.gif
Charon
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 26 2006, 03:00 AM)
hmm, where did that -1 pr reaction test come from?

p.151

defense modifiers table.

Defender has defended against previous attacks since last action : -1 per addtional defense.

That makes charging a group of soldier single handedly an exceptionnally bad idea since the last ones will hit you very hard.

Yet you can't methodically snipe them most of the time ; they are soldiers, you are a runner. They have back up and you don't. They can stay under cover all day and you can't.

So you try to avoid these situations altogether if you know what's good for you.
Samaels Ghost
QUOTE (Charon)
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost @ Aug 26 2006, 02:58 AM)
QUOTE (Charon @ Aug 26 2006, 02:21 AM)
He stopped a Citymaster with a Warhawk? 

he probably called a shot to the treads/wheels. Made it immobile. I don't know exactly what I citymaster looks like, but I see a lucky called shot stopping it from moving.

I don't. This is basically a tank.

I don't know what exactly we're dealing with here. There's no pic in the book. Is there a RL vehicle that I can compare it to?

Thinking about treads, I think a called shot would reduce the speed of the tank, but not stop it completely. Multiple shot would be required to do that.
Dissonance
I think that SR3's R3R had a thumbnail sized picture in it. Regardless, I picture a Citymaster as looking like a cross between a garbage truck and an RV circa Mad Max.

Basically, a mobile bunker that is sure to spread warm fuzzies to all and sundry.
Samaels Ghost
Like this?
http://www.mojojets.com/images/trucks/APC-432-01.jpg

Or this?
http://www.badside.freeserve.co.uk/images/ifv-pic.jpg

Which one fits more closely to the Citymaster?
Charon
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost @ Aug 26 2006, 03:06 AM)
Thinking about treads, I think a called shot would reduce the speed of the tank, but not stop it completely. Multiple shot would be required to do that.

Not with small arm fire!

A called shot with a panther assault cannon or a LAW, more likely.

As for images, in the old sourcebook there is some.

Street Samurai Catalog (Gool old SR2) hasa riot control vehicle picture based on the citymaster.

Believe me, this ain't stopping for no bullet. Big as a tank, heavily armored. It has 8 wheels but these wheels have more in common with those of a train than an automobile tire.

It's an APC, a 2070 one at that. It takes a missile to seriously dent it.

QUOTE
Like this?
http://www.mojojets.com/images/trucks/APC-432-01.jpg

Or this?
http://www.badside.freeserve.co.uk/images/ifv-pic.jpg

Which one fits more closely to the Citymaster?


Hmm, the bottom one is fairly close. But it's for city ops, it's bumper is close to the ground. The wheels are more protected.
hobgoblin
that last one kinda fits my mental image of it atleast.
or maybe just a armored van equiped to carry police rather then cash...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWAT_van
http://www.swat-truck.com/

i keep getting surprised as to what one can find on wikipedia...
Charon
Oh no, it has nothing to do with these SWAT truck image.

It's like a military Armore Personnel Carrier, as I keep repeating.

The description says it has life support and a turret! The old images are pretty close to the second one Hobgoblin posted but as I said it's lower on the ground. It ain't for wilderness use.
hobgoblin
no problem taking a swat van, putting a turret on top and making the cabin have overpressure (and a air filter on the pump) so that nasty gasses and similar cant get in...
Glyph
Well, at least with his solo act, you don't have to worry about toning down the opposition for the sake of the rest of the team. Now, there are plenty of tactics to use against this character build, but you should also ask yourself how much your games revolve around combat.

If combat is the main thing, then he does have a really good build. But shadowrunning should also involve planning, legwork, and some degree of stealth (a gunfight on the way out or near the goal is one thing, but if you hit the gate shooting, it should usually end poorly). The other players should be doing matrix searches, talking to their contacts, negotiating payment, following leads, and so on.

Even in combat, there should be things for the others to do. The mage is already buffing the troll and providing counterspelling, but the hacker could be trying to shut down the sentry gun with ultrasound sensors, the rigger could be giving the team a bird's eye view of the guard forces from his airborne drone, the face should be getting them past the ferroconcrete guardhouse with fake ids and some fast-talking, etc.

You can challenge the troll more, but you also need to give the rest of the team something useful to do (giving them suggestions if they are relatively new to roleplaying - remember that their characters would have a professional's knowledge), so he doesn't get quite as much of a swollen ego.
Charon
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 26 2006, 03:33 AM)
no problem taking a swat van, putting a turret on top and making the cabin have overpressure (and a air filter on the pump) so that nasty gasses and similar cant get in...

Yeah, well, I'm telling you that's not what it look likes.

Beside, these vans could hardly do 20 men / hour worth of life support and wouldn't have armor 20 body 16 at any rate.

Armor 20 stops a panther cannon cold.
hobgoblin
hmm, yeah. your probably right.
heh, kinda funny that those variants on my second link have the name bull-dog nyahnyah.gif
anyone up for a bulldog step van?
Samaels Ghost
Alright, I gotcha. Don't know much about guns or the vehicles in question, so my opinion is far from valid there.

One thing I do have a clue about, though, is magic. I play a mage/hacker, so I'll give a few more tips and tricks to counter masterofthegame's IT.

QUOTE
Without specifically targeting him with high-force spirits or something I'm not sure how to realistically make him aware that he's not all-powerful.


You don't have to throw a huge spirit at him to humble him. Low-force, bound spirits can be very effective when attacking as a group. They get the bonus for friends in melee and he gets the negative for defending against all of them. Using swarms of watcher spirits against the team's mage can help too, but only if the guy is dual natured/projecting. With the GM's approval you could even have watchers manifest and try blocking the trolls veiw. They may be translucent, but together they can be a hinderance and very distracting. Give him visibility modifiers for that.

Spirits are great becuase they can be there right when the trouble starts, within seconds of an alarm. After materializing they are vulnerable to getting disrupted and will gladly use Edge to down scary trolls and save their own hoops. Don't forget spirit edge. It can make modest Force spirits formidible.

Spirit powers like Movement can cripple the Troll, and Concealment on the Corp sec will give your Troll even more trouble than Imp Invis gives them. Unlike Invis, Concealment is a multi-sense effect. You can't pick up a Concealed corp-sec guy with Ultrasound, but you can see a invis Troll with Ultrasound biggrin.gif The Engulf power on the mage can be deadly as mages generally don't have high Body or Strength, and that's what they resist being Engulfed with. The Accident power uses attributes other than Body or Will to resist (it uses Int+Rea i think). A few Accidents can humble a IT.

QUOTE
I know there is always the spirit option, and I've used it, which forced the team adept to actually get out and do something, but short of swarming him every time he gets out of the car, nothing seems to scare him.


Argh, I didn't see that part before I wrote the stuff above. Methods of scaring a Troll other than spirits, huh?
-Armor piercing (APDS and Monowhips)
-Acid effects to eat his armor
-Surprise and ambush
-Other trolls with Bows
-Adepts kick ass
-Ritual Spellcasting (aka GM Magic ork.gif )

Wait, Ritual Spellcasting isn't a bad idea. If your Troll doesn't keep his head down he could get cast on while off the clock. If a spirit shadows him back to his home, then a ritual spellcasting team can really mess him up in the middle of the night. Unless your mage and troll sleep together, he won't have protection against a ritual spell. And those spells can be VERY potent. Consider using spells that are touch (Death Touch, Decrease Attribute, Decrease Reflexes) and then ambushing him with shock troops. Catch him with his pants down. There's no reason not to if he has caused as much trouble as it sounds like he has. Corps have a pretty substantial "screw over terrorists" budget.

Most importantly, stress that whatever the team can get away with, their enemies can most likely do it better. Corps have access to all the things that your runners do, plus numbers are on their side. A character as brash as this one will attract the undesired attention of one of these big names and the game will be over for old Invincible Troll.
hobgoblin
hmm, found this while digging some more on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:VAB_arm...er_DSC00846.jpg

hmm, im not familiar with the abilitys of hellboy.
so if i had been the GM after that stunt, i would start to wonder if the troll was planing to get himself colored either green or gray from top to bottom nyahnyah.gif

edit:

err, it seems i have gotten two threads crossed.
i guess thats what i guess for reading and posting on two threads about trolls and vehicle destruction at the same time...
Critias
If this scene is what's prompted the "Hellboy" comparisons, I recall a time in the movie when a friendly character was trying to cross a busy street. An SUV was bearing down on Joe Normal (Hellboy's ally), and Hellboy suddenly intervened -- an overhand punch smacked into the hood/engine block of the SUV, hitting it so hard the car flipped trunk-over-headlights (missing Hellboy and his buddy), before landing on all four wheels a few feet past them.

Which is, well, a pretty impressive punch.
Cabral
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost @ Aug 26 2006, 02:55 AM)
gamma-scopolamine only paralyzes if the power reduces Reaction to 0. A cybered character probably has Reaction enhancements, so this may not be a great idea.

Actually, RAW, no. If he does not reduce the Power of the Toxin to 0 with his resitance test, it takes effect based on its remaining power level (p 245). and Gamma-Scopolamine (p 246) is either all or nothing, with no effect on reaction.

As to what a Citymaster looks like, the Rigger Black Book has a pick of it. It look like a blocky long armored truck, like an APC crossed with an RV.

I think there's a picture on this page.

I think in addition to being the vehicle of choice for SR security teams, it's also meant to fill the mobile command post (ie, in the movies, when the police are in a big van/truck parked outside of a hostage situation ... replace that with a citymaster)

I wouldn't say it has tires per say ... more like rubber coated steel drums.
Samaels Ghost
Since gamma-scopolamine induces paralysis it follows the rules on 245.

QUOTE
If the Power of an attack after the Toxin Resistance test exceeds the target's Reaction, the target is paralyzed and unable to take physical actions for 1 hour. Even if the target is not paralyzed, she will suffer a -2 dice pool modifier for the next hour.


I wasn't exactly right in my previous post, the stuff doesn't actually reduce Reaction. But it is neccesary for the Power to exceed Reaction to paralyze the target.

If the power is completely resisted, nothing happens
If the power is reduced to below the target's Reaction, a -2 mod is suffered and the truth serum effect will kick in within an hour
If the power exceeds the target's Reaction, there will be paralysis followed by the truth serum effect.
Samaels Ghost
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/1399/ares...tymaster2vh.jpg

cool
Casper
have him meet his clone with another group giving him cover over the player characters.
Rotbart van Dainig
It would be nice to have actual data instead of vague descriptions.
Firewall
When the shooting starts, the building goes on high-alert. Blast doors, six inches of stainless steel, drop in front of the entrances to the lab (or whatever room houses the target) with a hiss and a click that suggests a hydraulic locking mechanism. The decker tells them that the door-reset is local-only. The alarm can be set off from anywhere in the building and shut off from the matrix but the blast doors can only be opened from a terminal in the building itself and cannot be opened for 8 hours after being triggered.

Better still, the door-lock is linked with a pressure sensor that checks the weight of anyone entering against a biometric database. This system is not linked to the matrix, so must be hacked locally and the IC is all programmed to shut the blast doors at the first sign of trouble, before attacking the decker.

If the team have not reached the lab when the alarm goes off, they cannot collect their target. If the team are in the lab when it goes off, they are trapped. If the team have collected the item, they are lucky...
Brahm
QUOTE (Masterofthegame @ Aug 25 2006, 11:31 PM)
Without specifically targeting him with high-force spirits or something I'm not sure how to realistically make him aware that he's not all-powerful.

First off the way you are describing him you seem to think his is all-powerful. wink.gif

So what exactly is your adversity to having a spirit opponent? Or Troll or Orc physadept melee opponent for that matter, which will roughly approximate the other.

If you want alternatives suggested beyond breaking up his mage support with smoke or a ward I think you need to come up with some harder numbers and more details. The character sheet for one would be handy.

Another place to come up with some numbers is the Citymaster incident. Exactly what was your ruling that allowed the Citymaster to be stopped? It is a wheeled vehicle, runflats are a natural for it, and it has extra wheels to limp along with. If you are going to drop the coin for that much metal you don't want it having stop to change a flat every time some protester's shattered femur pokes into a tire. cool.gif Beyond that even if you allow a called shot you likely shouldn't remove all the Armor rating. Especially on a Citymaster. Even the windshield is going to be pretty damn resistant to damage. I likely wouldn't have a Called Shot bypass more than 4 or 6 Armor points.

Then he took the passengers by himself with only the indirect help of the mage? Where was their mage support? If they have a mage astral he can do a quick astral scout before they disembark. Remember, geek the mage first. Even if the mage is using mage goggles these bad boys should have some means of neutralizing him with indirect fire, or the smoke as suggested above. They are a team, they should all be hooked up on a battle com system. Using sound tactics they are going to put the scare in folks.

The last point is why are you so concerned? Sounds like the team is working together, and good things should happen if they do that. Besides you are providing a mix of situations not all of which come out well if they just blast there way through, right? So what is really wrong with PCs being badasses?
Firewall
If he took out a Citymaster, Lonestar will have his face on record. There may even be a bullet or six with his name on, all loaded into the clip on a Ranger Arm SM-3. One shot might not kill him but if you can shoot someone like that from 100 yards, you do so. Repeatedly...
lorechaser
Yeah, I think we really need to see his stats.

To uh, find a way to beat him up, yeah.

*looks around for his GM, sees nothing*
Butterblume
What the german police use today, the Sonderwagen 4, also known as TM-170. Built by our friendly manufacturer Thyssen, today a big part of ThyssenKrupp (I just had to get that SaederKrupp reference in cyber.gif ).
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Polizei_...Panzerwagen.jpg

It's also in use as a military vehicle (In Macedonia, I think), under the name Hermelin.
http://naoruzanje.paracin.co.yu/hermelin6.jpg

(the Hermelin has space for 2+10 passengers). IIrc, the Ares Citymaster is bigger (and most likely better armoured).
Charon
QUOTE (Brahm)
The last point is why are you so concerned? Sounds like the team is working together, and good things should happen if they do that.

They just cast invisibility on the troll and go hide will he does all the heavy lifting.

I don't call this working together.

Working together is having everyone involved in the fight, even the less skilled combattant. The combat specialist takes the point but everyone is there to contribute.

And correct use of the combat rules encourage this. Amongst other factors, if you are alone against many you quickly got no dodge dice left.

---

That being said, the Troll should still always take the point in combat situation. It just sounds like it has degenarated to the point where the team use combat in situations where any other team would use sneakiness because of the "Invincibility" of the Troll.

I may misinterpret the situation, though.
Serbitar
Ultrasound? Cheap!

And if I was the security team and was attacked by a an invisible Cybermonstertroll, I would go into cover and call the HTRT with heavy weapons.
Charon
QUOTE (Serbitar)
Ultrasound? Cheap!

And if I was the security team and was attacked by a an invisible Cybermonstertroll, I would go into cover and call the HTRT with heavy weapons.

Well, that's my first post in a nutshell.

I need to learn to get to the point!
Clyde
How tough are your goons? What stats? Any cyber or combat drugs? What weapons (and ammo type)? Most importantly: are they using Infiltration and Full Defense?

Most non-Special Forces NPCs printed in the book have no chance of doding a shot by an out of the book Street Samurai, let alone a monster like this Troll. However, on Page 151 it specifically states that you can use Full Defense as an Interrupt Action. That means that no matter how fast Mr. Monster Samurai with Horns rolls on his initiative, the goons can roll Reaction + Dodge against him. They sacrifice their next available action to do this. On Page 151 it also specifically states that even when using Full Defense a character can still Walk or Run on their turn.

So here's what you do. Your next goons have Ultrasound Goggles, Smoke Grenades, Urban Camouflage Suits (armor 8/6 and -2 to visual perception) with Thermal Dampening 2 and smartlinked AK-97s with Gas Vent and EX Explosive ammunition. They also grab the Dodge skill at 3 and a Specialization in Ranged Combat (see page 112). Ideally, they should have Wired Reflexes I but a dose of Jazz will work as well. You can price this stuff out on your own, but it's within everybody's budget.

Upon contact, the goons will see your Troll with no problem (he's probably not trying to hide per say). Any goons who are actually attacked will use Full Defense as an Interrupt (losing their action in the First Initiative Pass). The Troll will either miss these goons or wound them but probably not kill them - they can defend with 10 dice and should have Good Cover. Anybody doing the Full Defense thing who is able will move to flank Mr. Troll - anybody wounded will Drop Prone to full cover and call for help. Remaining goons can pop smoke, try to let up 'el troll with wide bursts, etc. On Pass 2 Mr. Troll will open fire again. The smoke will go off, though. This won't bother the Ultrasound using goons, but might be a problem for the Troll in two ways (he can't see them, and if the mage can't see him he loses spell defense and invisibility). Next round, a couple goons will keep up the noisy gunfire and running around - they'll regularly call out the Troll's location in code. Meanwhile, one of their number will use Infiltration to get a flanking position.

The endgame comes when the sneaky guard gets to a place where he has a shot at the troll with no cover and the troll is unaware of his position. Note that in order to make a perception test, the troll's player has to spend a Simple Action to Observe in Detail. He probably won't bother doing this, because the goons are obviously fighting in a cowardly fashion. The surprise test should give a significant bonus to the sneaky guard, who now has a good chance of winning. Spend Edge if necessary, that's what it's there for. With a failed Surprise Test, the Troll gets no Reaction or Dodge dice to defend - goon takes a called shot on a narrow burst to bypass armor and no more Mr. Troll guy.

No spirits, no drones, no huge assault cannons. You just have to be willing to play your goons like they want to live first and fight second. That means Full Defense and Infiltration, because it's nice not to be hit and it's nicer still not to be targetted in the first place!
Cabral
Okay a warhawk has a DV of 6 and AP -2 lets add EX Explosive ammo for +2 DV and -2 AP (total 8P / -4 AP). Now, he needs to exceed a 16 (20 armor -4 AP) DV in order to even affect the citymaster. So that means at least 9 net hits puting hs DV at 17.

The driver rolls reaction modified by handling (or Reaction+Vehicle Skill modified by handling if the driver decides to drive evasively). Let's assume an average of 1 hit, meaning the troll would need another hit (10 in all).

So is it reasonable for him to achieve 10 hits?

Lets assume he's unwounded (-0), has a smartlink (+2), has Image magnification to remove the range penalty (-0), is stationary (-0), uses his other simple action to aim (+1), calling a shot for +4 DV* (-4), and has perfect visibility or low-light vision in partial light (-0) for a total -1 dice pool modifier.

*This is more effective than trying to bypass armor (-20 dice pool) and for these purposes is effective 4 automatic hits.

Because he called a shot, only needs 6 hits and assuming every 3 dice in his pool equals on hit on average, he would need 18 dice remaining after the dice pool modifiers above, or 19 dice. With a maximum 13 Agility (5 Troll +4 Muscle Toner or Replacement+1 Suprathyroid gland +3 active adrenaline pump), it would require a 6 Pistols to to on average, make it throught the Citymaster.

Now, if things get this far, he hits and pierces the armor, the city master rolls 32 dice, which can either automaticallly reduce the damage by 8 (from 17 to 9), or on average reduce it by 11 (from 17 to 6). Of course, it has 16 boxes on it's condition track. smile.gif

Sorry if this is all stuff you already knew, I went through it because it helped me understand it a little better (Such as though the AP entry says that AP reduces Armor for the damage resistance test, the Vehicle Armor description says you must exceed the modified armor, implying AP applies)
Charon
QUOTE (Cabral @ Aug 26 2006, 12:57 PM)
Okay a warhawk has a DV of 6 and AP -2 lets add EX Explosive ammo for +2 DV and -2 AP (total 8P / -4 AP). Now, he needs to exceed a 16 (20 armor -4 AP) DV in order to even affect the citymaster. So that means at least 9 net hits puting hs DV at 17.

Stop right there.

QUOTE (p.158)
If an attack's unmodified DV does not exceed a vehicle's modified armor rating, then the attack automatically fails.


A normal human with a wooden stick and lots of edge could eventually overcome the Armor rating of a Citmaster if you don't enforce that rule!

And just so you all realize what it is the troll stopped with one revolver bullet :

A Citymaster

It couldn't have worked.
knasser
QUOTE (Cabral @ Aug 26 2006, 12:57 PM)
Okay a warhawk has a DV of 6 and AP -2 lets add EX Explosive ammo for +2 DV and -2 AP (total 8P / -4 AP). Now, he needs to exceed a 16 (20 armor -4 AP) DV in order to even affect the citymaster. So that means at least 9 net hits puting hs DV at 17.

The driver rolls reaction modified by handling (or Reaction+Vehicle Skill modified by handling if the driver decides to drive evasively). Let's assume an average of 1 hit, meaning the troll would need another hit (10 in all).

So is it reasonable for him to achieve 10 hits?

Lets assume he's unwounded (-0), has a smartlink (+2), has Image magnification to remove the range penalty (-0), is stationary (-0), uses his other simple action to aim (+1), calling a shot for +4 DV* (-4), and has perfect visibility or low-light vision in partial light (-0) for a total -1 dice pool modifier.

*This is more effective than trying to bypass armor (-20 dice pool) and for these purposes is effective 4 automatic hits.

Because he called a shot, only needs 6 hits and assuming every 3 dice in his pool equals on hit on average, he would need 18 dice remaining after the dice pool modifiers above, or 19 dice. With a maximum 13 Agility (5 Troll +4 Muscle Toner or Replacement+1 Suprathyroid gland +3 active adrenaline pump), it would require a 6 Pistols to to on average, make it throught the Citymaster.

Now, if things get this far, he hits and pierces the armor, the city master rolls 32 dice, which can either automaticallly reduce the damage by 8 (from 17 to 9), or on average reduce it by 11 (from 17 to 6). Of course, it has 16 boxes on it's condition track. smile.gif

Sorry if this is all stuff you already knew, I went through it because it helped me understand it a little better (Such as though the AP entry says that AP reduces Armor for the damage resistance test, the Vehicle Armor description says you must exceed the modified armor, implying AP applies)


Not going to analyse your game-fu, but one assumption I'd question:

You're driving an Ares Citymaster. Someone points a revolver at you. Do you really take evasive action. rotfl.gif

I'm with everyone else on this one. Post the bloody character sheet!
Charon
QUOTE (Cabral @ Aug 26 2006, 12:57 PM)
With a maximum 13 Agility (5 Troll +4 Muscle Toner or Replacement+1 Suprathyroid gland +3 active adrenaline pump), it would require a 6 Pistols to to on average, make it throught the Citymaster.

Troll have a maximum modified agility of 7.

You have exploded it.

Agility 5 = 65 BP
Muscle Toner 4 = 6 BP (30K+) and availability 20 (AKA not legal for starting PC)
Pistol 6 = 24 BP
Adrenaline Pump 3 = 18 BP (90k) and availability 18 (not legal for starting PC)
Troll = 40 BP

That's 153 BP right there!

I'm gonna assume that the original poster's PC (only 30 karma or so) didn't break the chargen rules this egregiously.
Cabral
I apparently need to get the errata, my book (1st printing) says if the modified DV exceeds the modified armor rating ...

Also, I hadn't realized that the parenthetical 7 for Trolls' agility was their maximum augmented value. Wow. SR4 kneecapped power gamers ...

(Edit: Also, not that I'm not the original poster)
Charon
QUOTE (Cabral)
(Edit: Also, not that I'm not the original poster)

(Yep, edited my post)
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