Full Version: Invincible Troll
| QUOTE (Charon) | ||
A normal human with a wooden stick and lots of edge could eventually overcome the Armor rating of a Citmaster if you don't enforce that rule! |
Hate to tell you, but the actual rule is:
| QUOTE (SR4v3 @ p. 158, Vehicle Armor) |
| If an attack’s modified DV does not exceed a vehicle’s modified Armor rating, then the attack automatically fails. |
Invisibility won't hide a muzzle flash from the troll's gun, and that's all you need to tell you where to drop the grenades. 4 Guys with underbarrel grenade launchers can drop 8 grenades on him that all go off instantly. Make 2 of those thermal smoke just in case (because you've got ultrasound and grenades). The other 6 can be whatever your favorite grenade type is. I like chemical splash grenades personally.
Supressive fire isn't bad against an invisible enemy, if you have an idea were the enemy is. In the case of this troll it won't work, I think 
.
.
edit:
never mind...
never mind...
Hmm. I hope Arsenal, or whatever updates one of my favorites: Freeze Foam.
Trap the troll in a Barrier Rating 12 wall
Until it's update, I guess you could just use the Man & Machine specs but those hit must suceed on an Agility (Net hits on initial attack) test or be immobilized in the barrier 12 wall.
I loved making characters with Freeze Foam, Slip Spray and Splat Glue in Splash Grenades (all from Man & Machine pgs 112 - 117).
Trap the troll in a Barrier Rating 12 wall
Until it's update, I guess you could just use the Man & Machine specs but those hit must suceed on an Agility (Net hits on initial attack) test or be immobilized in the barrier 12 wall.
I loved making characters with Freeze Foam, Slip Spray and Splat Glue in Splash Grenades (all from Man & Machine pgs 112 - 117).
hmm, sounds like the trapper, a marvel villain...
| QUOTE (Cabral) |
| I apparently need to get the errata, my book (1st printing) says if the modified DV exceeds the modified armor rating ... |
According to the third printing PDF, page 158, it is, indeed, the modified DV.
| QUOTE (Charon @ Aug 26 2006, 11:27 AM) | ||
They just cast invisibility on the troll and go hide will he does all the heavy lifting. I don't call this working together. Working together is having everyone involved in the fight, even the less skilled combattant. The combat specialist takes the point but everyone is there to contribute. |
That isn't what he said at all. The others are providing "cover". As well the mage is still providing support. Not only does he have to sustain the spell, by whatever means, but he also has to keep LOS. I'd guess he's using a Sustaining Focus otherwise I believe, IIRC, there should be a -2 dice penalty on that Counterspelling.
Further it appears that combat is this character's thing. Now if the runs composed solely of combat, well then yes there might be somewhat of an issue. But it is highly unlikely that this character is the root source of that issue, and trying to find some way to threaten the Troll in combat isn't the path to a solution.
There should come many times in a run where various team members will step forward to do the heavy lifting in their area of specialty while the other members provide support/cover/coffee.
yeah, if you have powergaming players, than powergame the opposition right back at them. throw a brick wall of a troll with counterspell support and see how they like it.
Barring that, shoot the mage.
Barring that, shoot the mage.
Bah, kill'em all - use Doom, Ebola+ and 7seven combined... that'll teach'em. 
You could try putting challenges in front of them that can't be defeated with violence. This will shrink the troll's usefulness.
Also keep in mind that violence draws attention. Law enforcement, criminal syndicates, corporate or national counter-intelligence wetwork teams; any of these might be powerfully motivated to put a stop to the rampage that is rocking the good ship Status Quo. They will deploy significant resources to finding, surveilling, and then ambushing the troll at the time and place the least to his advantage. Like for example, when he's alone.
You might try a camoflaged rotodrone with an LMG standing off at a hundred and fifty meters or so, for starters.
Also keep in mind that violence draws attention. Law enforcement, criminal syndicates, corporate or national counter-intelligence wetwork teams; any of these might be powerfully motivated to put a stop to the rampage that is rocking the good ship Status Quo. They will deploy significant resources to finding, surveilling, and then ambushing the troll at the time and place the least to his advantage. Like for example, when he's alone.
You might try a camoflaged rotodrone with an LMG standing off at a hundred and fifty meters or so, for starters.
Although I'm starting to get a funny vibe that my leg is being tugged on, I'll bite and respond anyways...
---
Personally I fall into the camp demanding for his build to be posted before offering ways to geek him, err... I mean show him the error of thinking he's all powerful, yeah, thats it. *winks*
Seriously though, either someone has got to have misread a rule somewhere to have as serious of a problem as you've described, unless of course as someone has pointed out, your corp-sec are played as first day cadets who stand out in the open as their buddies are slaughtered...
---
Personally I fall into the camp demanding for his build to be posted before offering ways to geek him, err... I mean show him the error of thinking he's all powerful, yeah, thats it. *winks*
Seriously though, either someone has got to have misread a rule somewhere to have as serious of a problem as you've described, unless of course as someone has pointed out, your corp-sec are played as first day cadets who stand out in the open as their buddies are slaughtered...
How about 4 Steel Lynx, with suppressed smartlinked LMGs, 200 round belts of APDS and with the full load of vision enhancements? If you include the nearly free RF scanner you can pick up the traffic between his team and him, which can have them direct their attentions to the team if appropriate. A $20,000 drone can include all of this, with goodies like non-conductivity 6, ultrasonic vision, targeting 4 and clearsight 4.
I found they didn't do a whole lot against a dragon with armor 8 running (hardened armor sucks), but they will tend to do a number against most anything less. 6P with -5 armor tends to hurt things, particularly when you use some drones firing wide bursts and other narrow bursts.
I found they didn't do a whole lot against a dragon with armor 8 running (hardened armor sucks), but they will tend to do a number against most anything less. 6P with -5 armor tends to hurt things, particularly when you use some drones firing wide bursts and other narrow bursts.
i would use a varient of thesteeel wall defense, leave the troll trapped and force the rest ofthe teamto find an alternate way to get to the other side of the coroned offarea o release it
also in the citymaster option
agi 7
pist6
spec warhawk 2
smartlink 2
aiming 1
reflex recorder 1
19 dice
lose 4 dice for extra damage
so we will look at 15 dice
15 dice is 5 successes
round down is 5 leaving 10 left to roll with the edge reroll
giving another 3-4 successes
easily enough
gives 20-21damage against 32 dice soak
about 10 damage on average
so it is within acceptable levels of luck to pull that off
lets assume lucky hit
also in the citymaster option
agi 7
pist6
spec warhawk 2
smartlink 2
aiming 1
reflex recorder 1
19 dice
lose 4 dice for extra damage
so we will look at 15 dice
15 dice is 5 successes
round down is 5 leaving 10 left to roll with the edge reroll
giving another 3-4 successes
easily enough
gives 20-21damage against 32 dice soak
about 10 damage on average
so it is within acceptable levels of luck to pull that off
lets assume lucky hit
In all this discussion, I note the lack of a response from the OP.
As for my suggestions ( mirroring a lot of what's already been said ).
Go with Frag grenades for the win, with pressure sensors and gas/liquid vector drugs and inhibitors. May not kill him, but you'll probably knock him out. so yeah, set up a situation so that if he's "kill Kill KILL!", he'll get pics and anon notes that he should be more careful of his ident and safety, if he wish's to live much longer.
As for my suggestions ( mirroring a lot of what's already been said ).
Go with Frag grenades for the win, with pressure sensors and gas/liquid vector drugs and inhibitors. May not kill him, but you'll probably knock him out. so yeah, set up a situation so that if he's "kill Kill KILL!", he'll get pics and anon notes that he should be more careful of his ident and safety, if he wish's to live much longer.
Expert Gunman + Ares Alpha + Ultrasound + APDS + Full Burst = Troll in a world of pain
Bye
Thanee
Bye
Thanee
Expensive Ammo and Bigger Guns are the last resort of a bad GM or one that doesn't have any control over his campaign. Nine times out of ten, when you throw bigger guns and bigger ammo at your invincitroll, the only thing that happens is you now have a party equipped with bigger guns, bigger ammo, and aforementioned invincitroll.
Several good options have been mentioned in this thread, but honestly, the best solution to this is the OOC one.
Quite frankly, if your players respect you at all, than you need to explain to the troll player that he is disrupting the game, and needs to roll a different character. Tell him he can have all his nuyen and karma for the new character, but he can't keep playing his current one.
Quite frankly, this is why my favorite shadowrun group imposed a troll moratorium, where no trolls were allowed unless everyone was a troll. The one glaring failure of balance above all others in Shadowrun, imo, is Trolls as a playable race.
Several good options have been mentioned in this thread, but honestly, the best solution to this is the OOC one.
Quite frankly, if your players respect you at all, than you need to explain to the troll player that he is disrupting the game, and needs to roll a different character. Tell him he can have all his nuyen and karma for the new character, but he can't keep playing his current one.
Quite frankly, this is why my favorite shadowrun group imposed a troll moratorium, where no trolls were allowed unless everyone was a troll. The one glaring failure of balance above all others in Shadowrun, imo, is Trolls as a playable race.
| QUOTE (Sammiel) |
| Expensive Ammo and Bigger Guns are the last resort of a bad GM or one that doesn't have any control over his campaign. Nine times out of ten, when you throw bigger guns and bigger ammo at your invincitroll, the only thing that happens is you now have a party equipped with bigger guns, bigger ammo, and aforementioned invincitroll. Several good options have been mentioned in this thread, but honestly, the best solution to this is the OOC one. Quite frankly, if your players respect you at all, than you need to explain to the troll player that he is disrupting the game, and needs to roll a different character. Tell him he can have all his nuyen and karma for the new character, but he can't keep playing his current one. Quite frankly, this is why my favorite shadowrun group imposed a troll moratorium, where no trolls were allowed unless everyone was a troll. The one glaring failure of balance above all others in Shadowrun, imo, is Trolls as a playable race. |
There are lots of good counterbalances to the Troll if a GM is willing to use them. The only problem is that they are often less statistical ones. Examples that spring immediately to mind are:
Deliberate Social Prejudice (refusal to admit to clubs, sports event, no dates)
Inadvertant Social Prejudice (no troll-sized taxi available, the only troll seats in the the restaurant already taken, etc.)
Targeting (second only to geek the mage is LMG the troll)
Infiltration ( "I hide behind the uh..." )
Cover ( "I hide behind the uh..." )
Confined spaces (sorry this building is pre-awakening. The ceiling is only 8' so -1 dice pool, please)
Minority race ("So we have twelve trolls living on this block. Frag it, lets question all of 'em).
And that's just to start with. I would warn any prospective player of these issues before they started, but I wouldn't shy away from using them. Trolls are good, but there are downsides if a GM isn't just running a dungeon crawl.
<double post deleted>
| QUOTE (Ravor @ Aug 26 2006, 10:40 PM) |
| Although I'm starting to get a funny vibe that my leg is being tugged on, I'll bite and respond anyways... |
I'm starting to get that impression too given that he hasn't posted in the thread since the initial post. In fact I got a 'troll' sense from the post right off. But the topic was worth addressing, so I figured I post anyway on the off chance it was a real post. *shrug*
Knasser is absolutely correct. In my opinion, trolls are very nearly unplayable as a PC race.
They don't fit in most cars. The team evacuates in a van, the troll has to jog home.
Even a room with eight foot ceilings is six inches to a foot too short, and the average hallway, which is about three to four feet wide, is rather narrow for them. I routinely penalize them two dice to physical skills in small spaces. And even post-Awakening, most construction will not accomodate them because it doesn't make economic sense. You're going to make everything a meter taller and wider (and subsequently more expensive to heat and cool) just to accomodate 4% of the population? Not usually.
And their size and rarity make them stand out in a crowd. Trolls are extremely conspicuous in an inconspicuous line of work.
They don't fit in most cars. The team evacuates in a van, the troll has to jog home.
Even a room with eight foot ceilings is six inches to a foot too short, and the average hallway, which is about three to four feet wide, is rather narrow for them. I routinely penalize them two dice to physical skills in small spaces. And even post-Awakening, most construction will not accomodate them because it doesn't make economic sense. You're going to make everything a meter taller and wider (and subsequently more expensive to heat and cool) just to accomodate 4% of the population? Not usually.
And their size and rarity make them stand out in a crowd. Trolls are extremely conspicuous in an inconspicuous line of work.
| QUOTE (Zen Shooter01) |
| They don't fit in most cars. The team evacuates in a van, the troll has to jog home. |
Which would explain the running table.
The first post being meant as a troll or not doesn't really matter. If it was, it failed because there's no fighting going on. If it wasn't, it succeeded in starting up a conversation that rehashes conversations had last month and the month before that.
| QUOTE (Lazerface) |
| Which would explain the running table. |
Bye
Thanee
I don't see the problem. If he's effective in combat, why punish him? You'd think every runner group would love to have a guy like him: someone they can send into the fray without having to worry about protecting themselves.
I see two problems here. first, the GM is having a problem thinking of the right response to a problem the runners create for their enemies. second, the players are getting overconfidant, and thus reckless.
Damage mitigation has 3 parts: dont get hit (cover/visibility), get out the way (reaction+dodge, reduced by every atatck in a pass), and soak (body+armor). you want to use the first two more than the third whenever possible. that third one can easily fail to work well enough to keep you alive.
Invisibility does nothing vs ultrasound. and hes making a LOT of noise. so we know where he is, and what hes doing. Now, if my team has a drone rigger, piloting something with ultrasound sensors and an LMG, then the drone can deal with the troll while the rest of us shoot at the enemy we can see... from behind some very good cover, while screaming for help. send in HTRT or the like. If its a big enough threat, and outdoors, send in a helicoptor. If its Ares, go ahead and use a Air-to-Surface missle.
IF you cannot be harmed by small arms, any enemy with sense will bring in a bigger gun as soon as they can. maybe a LAW rocket or RPG. It all depends on what the HTRT is bringing to the party, and what their rules of engagement are.
Now, you want to put some real fear in your troll? para-animals. some of their powers are just plain nasty.
As for the players- it may be a good idea to sit down with them, warn them that if they continue the behavior the enemy will respond accordingly... and then start giving them more jobs where the johnson says 'destroy everything, high body count' to act a distraction for the actual run. show them that you will respond to force with even more force. offer them a job to create a 'distraction' at a military base. Tanks? oh yeah theres tanks. if they have fun doing that, then let em. Shadowrun can be played at many power levels, and theres no reason why every team should avoid combat. those that do just live longer.
Damage mitigation has 3 parts: dont get hit (cover/visibility), get out the way (reaction+dodge, reduced by every atatck in a pass), and soak (body+armor). you want to use the first two more than the third whenever possible. that third one can easily fail to work well enough to keep you alive.
Invisibility does nothing vs ultrasound. and hes making a LOT of noise. so we know where he is, and what hes doing. Now, if my team has a drone rigger, piloting something with ultrasound sensors and an LMG, then the drone can deal with the troll while the rest of us shoot at the enemy we can see... from behind some very good cover, while screaming for help. send in HTRT or the like. If its a big enough threat, and outdoors, send in a helicoptor. If its Ares, go ahead and use a Air-to-Surface missle.
IF you cannot be harmed by small arms, any enemy with sense will bring in a bigger gun as soon as they can. maybe a LAW rocket or RPG. It all depends on what the HTRT is bringing to the party, and what their rules of engagement are.
Now, you want to put some real fear in your troll? para-animals. some of their powers are just plain nasty.
As for the players- it may be a good idea to sit down with them, warn them that if they continue the behavior the enemy will respond accordingly... and then start giving them more jobs where the johnson says 'destroy everything, high body count' to act a distraction for the actual run. show them that you will respond to force with even more force. offer them a job to create a 'distraction' at a military base. Tanks? oh yeah theres tanks. if they have fun doing that, then let em. Shadowrun can be played at many power levels, and theres no reason why every team should avoid combat. those that do just live longer.
Sounds to me like all you need are some well placed grenades. He might survive 1 or 2, but it should definately make a nice dent in his cocky attitude.
i got 4 little words for you
Sniper
and
Panther Assault Cannon
Sniper
and
Panther Assault Cannon
| QUOTE (warrior_allanon) |
| i got 4 little words for you Sniper and Panther Assault Cannon |
You know, sniping with a panther assault cannon is kind of like cutting bread with a monofilament whip...
In that it's not just possible, but incredibly easy?
you could always have a hacker make his life a ilving hell.
Troll porn subscriptions delivered directly to his ar feed
no more money
tips to lonestar pour in about the guy
or if in combat, his trusty alpha locks up or misfires a grenade (especialy good if he's wearing it slung over his shoulder instead of firing it)
btw a warhawk taking out a city master could be done by any type of character with a decent pistols skill.
mana barrier between him and his team (would that stop counterspelling?)
physical barrier between him and his team (stop cover fire)
anything on full autoshould hurt even a burly troll, and security teams are known to carry gyromounts just for such purposes
Troll porn subscriptions delivered directly to his ar feed
no more money
tips to lonestar pour in about the guy
or if in combat, his trusty alpha locks up or misfires a grenade (especialy good if he's wearing it slung over his shoulder instead of firing it)
btw a warhawk taking out a city master could be done by any type of character with a decent pistols skill.
mana barrier between him and his team (would that stop counterspelling?)
physical barrier between him and his team (stop cover fire)
anything on full autoshould hurt even a burly troll, and security teams are known to carry gyromounts just for such purposes
(Edit: this is referring to the Panther cannon sniping tactic)
GM fiat never solves an attitude problem. It risks alienating every player at the table, and it gets you nothing but comtempt - it shows everyone is that you had to resort to arbitrarily killing a character that you couldn't handle.
The GM would be better served by using some tactics to neutralize the team's preferred M.O. (and it's not being cheesy to have people ready for those specific tactics - if you use the same tactic every single time, people will start getting wise to it). And the point is to challenge the troll, and let the other party members contribute more, not to crap all over everyone's fun by being a munchkin GM and deliberately geeking characters.
GM fiat never solves an attitude problem. It risks alienating every player at the table, and it gets you nothing but comtempt - it shows everyone is that you had to resort to arbitrarily killing a character that you couldn't handle.
The GM would be better served by using some tactics to neutralize the team's preferred M.O. (and it's not being cheesy to have people ready for those specific tactics - if you use the same tactic every single time, people will start getting wise to it). And the point is to challenge the troll, and let the other party members contribute more, not to crap all over everyone's fun by being a munchkin GM and deliberately geeking characters.
Glyph beat me to it.
If the GM geeks the troll with some obscene beast, then the Troll player wins anyway. He made the GM cheat to win.
And then the Troll becomes the dwarven combat mage that has 4 init passes and rolls 25 dice for area mana bolts 4 times a round.
There is nothing wrong with neutralizing the troll. 1. Street teams come standard with horrific nasty trolls in general. A good corpsec squad is going to come loaded for troll, as it were. 2. After 5-6 runs, this guy's gonna get a rep. People that are likely targets will prep. And people talk - I mean, look at the mailing lists and networks we have now. Imagine 75 years from now, how much people will talk. News about him will be out in a week, and there will probably be constant chat rooms dedicated to how to deal with him, and people like him....
If the GM geeks the troll with some obscene beast, then the Troll player wins anyway. He made the GM cheat to win.
And then the Troll becomes the dwarven combat mage that has 4 init passes and rolls 25 dice for area mana bolts 4 times a round.
There is nothing wrong with neutralizing the troll. 1. Street teams come standard with horrific nasty trolls in general. A good corpsec squad is going to come loaded for troll, as it were. 2. After 5-6 runs, this guy's gonna get a rep. People that are likely targets will prep. And people talk - I mean, look at the mailing lists and networks we have now. Imagine 75 years from now, how much people will talk. News about him will be out in a week, and there will probably be constant chat rooms dedicated to how to deal with him, and people like him....
I agree with Glyph about that arbitrary killing thing.
Well I don't have access to my rule book right now so I will just stick with the ideas that pop into my head and leave the game-fu to others. I'll throw ideas out point by point. Oh, and one caveat, most of my experience is with SR3 but you should be able to convert ideas as neccessary.
| QUOTE |
| Without specifically targeting him with high-force spirits or something I'm not sure how to realistically make him aware that he's not all-powerful. He doesn't even have a huge amount of Karma. 30 or 40 maybe. The problem is that he has a high body and high willpower, coupled with great armor and the group mage counterspelling he's nearly invincible. Follow that up with a quick improved invisibility, and he's nigh-unstoppable. |
Ambush is probably the most successful tactic I have seen for dealing with the "Troll Mo-Fo". This beast has had a great deal of combat success from what you say so far and is employing the same MO every time....I would be very suprised if there aren't some special task forces that have been specifically created to take him out, especially if he or his team have embarassed anyone high up during one of their runs or killing sprees (and what runner hasn't). Taking out a Citymaster (probably a legendary feat in the Shadow community) singehandedly will just draw more attention. Have one of these task forces find out his habits and shadow him for a few weeks (and other team members too), then offer the runners a job and have the meet at a prepared ambush site. There are all sorts of things that you can do if you take a little time to prepare:
1. Whatever the 2070 version of Claymore mines is. Have these mines camoflaged covering whatever the obvious cover is at the site. All of a sudden the rest of the team is running around trying to find cover that isn't exploding and not really able to cover their boy.
2. The "Spider Web" or sticky monowire trick. Have one of the NPC's run away from the invisible monster and through a confined space that has been laced with strands of monowire partially covered in some sort of glue. Since The Monster hasn't come across anything that can stop him yet he'll probably be pre-disposed to just rush on ahead. If (when) he gets entangled in the Monowire he'll have to very carefully disentangle himself or be cut to ribbons. If you describe it right (don't just come out and tell it's monowire) he might try to break it
If he gets cut at all by the Wire that blood is going to play havoc with his invisibility. I just got a mental picture of this Monster on the ground in an alley all tangled up in monowire and bleeding while a few bad tempered guys on adjacent roof tops reach for gas cans and matches.Social Problems:
Sometimes players forget that their characters are not on a run 24/7. Remind them that their PC's have lives too. Turn up the pressure on the social lives' of the whole team. There's a very good reason that everyone likes shadowruns to be subtle. Throw some official scrutiny on the contacts, friends and lovers of the PC's. All of a sudden the team is untouchable in the 'Runner community. Nobody wants to talk them or sell to them for fear of getting busted. It's extremely de-moralizing to go to 'Runner bars and hangouts and be treated like a leper. Some really nasty investigators might even imply, very subtly, that the team has been 'turned' or is working with the Man. Some probably won't believe it but the extremely paranoid nature of people who have been in the Shadows for longer than 5 minutes will lead to definite doubts or in extreme cases the PC's contacts might start gunning for them.
Now, not all of this has to be used because you definately don't want the party to feel like your being unfair as the GM but there should be enough in previous posts and my own to at least let the Monster know to tone it down a bit. Let us know how it goes
All this aside it is reasonable that if they do regularly use these tactics the security people will catch wind, especially if they target places guarded by the same people (star or knight errant contractors esp).
It should be a small matter for them to realise the threat and make sure all teams have at least one of the following:
Magician or mystac adept
Adept with astral perception
Or most likely a guy with ultrasounds.
Only needs one. Once they confirm who it is they're being attacked by they call in the HTR team and tell them they're using invis. The security ohn site performs a holding action and sits tight as best they can.
HTR team turns up, leaving citymaster (s) before entering los and approach on foot. Probably minimum 1 city master, a mage/shaman, a rigger in the citymaster with a doberman or steel lynx (and possibly rotodrone), two or three guys with rifles, and possibly a phys ad. Like already mentioned a copter is a very real option, and given what they use them for today this would certainly qualify. All the HTR team should have ultrasounds since they were forewarned.
I don't see security as usually carrying ultrasound as standard, but if there is someone rampaging whilst invisible I can see them distributing them in limited fashion.
And giving a rotodrone a sniper rifle with APDS might help if its in fairly open space. Maybe doberman or steel lynx with assualt rifle or lmg, using ex-ex. We'd be talking the cream of the HTR teams too, along with the "not quite full scale war but not far off" gear they keep ohn standby.
It should be a small matter for them to realise the threat and make sure all teams have at least one of the following:
Magician or mystac adept
Adept with astral perception
Or most likely a guy with ultrasounds.
Only needs one. Once they confirm who it is they're being attacked by they call in the HTR team and tell them they're using invis. The security ohn site performs a holding action and sits tight as best they can.
HTR team turns up, leaving citymaster (s) before entering los and approach on foot. Probably minimum 1 city master, a mage/shaman, a rigger in the citymaster with a doberman or steel lynx (and possibly rotodrone), two or three guys with rifles, and possibly a phys ad. Like already mentioned a copter is a very real option, and given what they use them for today this would certainly qualify. All the HTR team should have ultrasounds since they were forewarned.
I don't see security as usually carrying ultrasound as standard, but if there is someone rampaging whilst invisible I can see them distributing them in limited fashion.
And giving a rotodrone a sniper rifle with APDS might help if its in fairly open space. Maybe doberman or steel lynx with assualt rifle or lmg, using ex-ex. We'd be talking the cream of the HTR teams too, along with the "not quite full scale war but not far off" gear they keep ohn standby.
| QUOTE (lorechaser) |
| If the GM geeks the troll with some obscene beast, then the Troll player wins anyway. He made the GM cheat to win. |
Having big, scary, and incredibly deadly opposition is not cheating.
Especially, if said troll runs amok in the streets... it's probably to be expected, that some security unit will then answer with rather deadly force.
Bye
Thanee
Bye
Thanee
If the troll is causing such enormous headaches for the Establishment, I see no reason why said Establishment wouldn't start leaning on the J or the team's fixer that originally got them the job. One of them will talk. And once the Establishment finds out who's causing all these issues, it's a relatively small thing to hit the troll's car with a missile or two. Or their house. Or place landmines under their mattress.
Who says the Big, Pissed Party has to attack the problem toe-to-toe?
Who says the Big, Pissed Party has to attack the problem toe-to-toe?
Just killing the troll because he's resilient in combat isn't fun.
| QUOTE (Butterblume) |
| Just killing the troll because he's resilient in combat isn't fun. |
I thought I was suggesting killing the troll because he wades out into the middle of heavily armed security teams making all kinds of noise and causing all kinds of damage. But hey, interpret as you like.
I never said hurting the troll badly because he imagines he is invincible isn't fun 
.
.
First off let me say no I did npt read the whole thread but I did have a thought if someone else has come up with this then ignore me lol.
A physical Adept that is a gun specialist with astral sight.
Gun either a ranger arms or heavy machine gun full auto narrow spread either useing EX-EX ammo.
His armor being what full suit with helm 12/10?
EX-EX + weapon ap modifiers gives him -5 ap and either 9p or 10p damage.
If you go full auto narrow spread up goes the damage and with astral vision he is not invisibile to the adept as he can see the spell outlineing the troll.
On the other hand he is not protected 24 hrs a day have a pissed off corp stake him out anf kill him when he is not expecting it like when he first gets up in the morning and runs out for a bite to eat.
A physical Adept that is a gun specialist with astral sight.
Gun either a ranger arms or heavy machine gun full auto narrow spread either useing EX-EX ammo.
His armor being what full suit with helm 12/10?
EX-EX + weapon ap modifiers gives him -5 ap and either 9p or 10p damage.
If you go full auto narrow spread up goes the damage and with astral vision he is not invisibile to the adept as he can see the spell outlineing the troll.
On the other hand he is not protected 24 hrs a day have a pissed off corp stake him out anf kill him when he is not expecting it like when he first gets up in the morning and runs out for a bite to eat.
in the end this is what the notoriety and so on was introduced into SR4 for.
slap mr uber-troll with some scores of that, and watch of his life goes down the toilet, fast...
slap mr uber-troll with some scores of that, and watch of his life goes down the toilet, fast...
| QUOTE (Casazil) |
| On the other hand he is not protected 24 hrs a day have a pissed off corp stake him out anf kill him when he is not expecting it like when he first gets up in the morning and runs out for a bite to eat. |
Food fight?
| QUOTE (Firewall) |
| You know, sniping with a panther assault cannon is kind of like cutting bread with a monofilament whip... |
I've actually used this exact rig against an NPC that the team mage had made invisible.
The team was in one of the tall buildings in LA that (in my game) is now half a mile offshore, with the bottom 3-4 stories flooded. The group that was after them had a few drones and a few spirits circling the area, and had set up some positions on/in nearby buildings. The group had contracted with some of the folks living in the building (who flew ultralights to shore off the roof) to get them outta there.
The team's mage used Improved Invisiblity on the pilot, and he went out to start prepping the plane.
Now, the rigger controlling the gun coverage in the area had control of a few PAC's on those weapon control mounts... the drones that are basically a tripod, a camera, some servos and a gun mount. Sure, he can't see shit looking out through his binoculars at the building... but when he checks in with the sensor network he's got strung across a few rooftops and windows, he spots the pilot walking across the roof (3 successes on an Imp Invis casting isn't enough to make the Object Resistance Threshold to fool the cameras on the PAC platforms). Next thing the PCs knew, there was a zzzzzshwhaackk as the AC round transected the pilot through the shoulders and tossed him down into the utility core of the building, followed by the distant bark of the PAC echoing around the neighborhood...
Drone-mounted guns are a common feature of SR. Being invisible from these is hard, especially when they're running decent sensors and a Clearsight program while pounding out the UV or the thermal.
I think just about every thing has already been suggested already, but I'll put in my own opinion.
The biggest problem that I see in our SR game and others with this type of problem is the D&D style Monster tactic of stand out in the open, wait to be attacked, then rush up and die.
Improving the tactics will help a lot: Use cover, Attack first, use automated defenses, and most importantly, RETREAT. Yep, retreat. The guards should get the hell outta there and come back with HTRT and more guards if they are totally out matched.
Useing IR Smoke Grenades and US Vision will make the team just as blind as the guards are. If the Smoke coveres up the troll also, his counterspelling will go down leaving him vulnerable.
And lastly, read through the entire book and then, go over the character with a fine tooth comb, the player may be violating some rules or using bonuses where they don't apply. (like using bone lacing body bonuses to resist poison or other non damage related body tests)
That's really all you should need.
The biggest problem that I see in our SR game and others with this type of problem is the D&D style Monster tactic of stand out in the open, wait to be attacked, then rush up and die.
Improving the tactics will help a lot: Use cover, Attack first, use automated defenses, and most importantly, RETREAT. Yep, retreat. The guards should get the hell outta there and come back with HTRT and more guards if they are totally out matched.
Useing IR Smoke Grenades and US Vision will make the team just as blind as the guards are. If the Smoke coveres up the troll also, his counterspelling will go down leaving him vulnerable.
And lastly, read through the entire book and then, go over the character with a fine tooth comb, the player may be violating some rules or using bonuses where they don't apply. (like using bone lacing body bonuses to resist poison or other non damage related body tests)
That's really all you should need.
| QUOTE (Charon @ Aug 26 2006, 07:21 AM) |
| He stopped a Citymaster with a Warhawk? Armor 20, Body 16? That Citymaster? |
Perhaps I wrote that badly. He didn't stop it, he damaged it, which was bad enough. That caused it to stop and the security team inside got out, and at that point he set his combat axe to puree.
As to how it was done, you're probably right, it was likely my fault, but it seemed legal. As I recall he aimed, took a called shot (-4 to hit, +4 DV), and used EX-Explosive.
That gave him a DV of 12, and the citymaster a modified armor of 16. With a little edge he ended up with a large number of sucesses (6 to 8 I think), and the Citymaster rolled poorly (perhaps 8 to 10 successes). for a net damage of around 10 points unless I did something wrong, and a high enough DV to go right through the armor.
Like I said, it was a lucky shot, but far from an impossible one.
Edit: Reversed Body/Armor.
| QUOTE (Masterofthegame @ Aug 29 2006, 01:22 AM) |
| Perhaps I wrote that badly. He didn't stop it, he damaged it, which was bad enough. That caused it to stop and the security team inside got out, and at that point he set his combat axe to puree. |
They probably should have tried to get out behind cover/concealment.
Definately not in front of some axe wielding maniac that just shot through their heavily armoured APC with a pistol, and preferably out of range of said pistol.| QUOTE |
| As to how it was done, you're probably right, it was likely my fault, but it seemed legal. As I recall he aimed, took a called shot (-4 to hit, +4 DV), and used EX-Explosive. |
Not so much your fault here. Those are indeed rules in the book. Rules that are nothing less than the top two for creating over-the-top firearm combat results. Recommend you just do away with Ex-Ex, or better yet use rescaled numbers for all the ammo that brings it to far saner levels. Because with Ex-Ex out of the way your little Troll friend is going to stock up on flechette, stick-n-shock, or perhaps gel rounds.
The Called Shot is already listed as GM discretionary. Likely better if you just allow -1 AP per -1 die on soft targets, up to -4 AP where appropriate, and perhaps -1 AP per -2 die on hardened targets unless they are targetting something very specific that is more a soft target. Such as the windshield of standard vehicle. In the later case only have it damage the subitem, not the whole vehicle.
In any case the +4 DV for -4 dice option is just flat out goofy in many cases.
Particularly ones like these. I really don't get how it ever saw the printed light of day.
| QUOTE (Samaels Ghost) | ||
Defender has defended against previous attacks since last action -1 per additional defense Defense modifiers table, pg. 151 |
Arg, I can't believe I forgot about this.
Okay, first of all, I know I posted to this thread already, but I had just started reading it and wanted to respond to a specific issue. I'm sorry that I hadn't responded (other than that) since I posted the question. I wasn't trolling, I just haven't had time to get online this weekend.
As for the character in question, I have a copy he gave me in excel format here. This was his sheet before play actually began, so it's not completely accurate (I know he has brought up his Willpower every chance he got, I believe it is a 4 now), but it should be relatively close.
There are a lot of great ideas here, so thanks all. I guess what I really need to do is ratchet it up a bit. Perhaps I've been a bit weak on giving the opposition access to the same stuff as Shadowrunners. I tend to play a low magic game, since it seems to me that magic is less than common, so I don't use a ton of mages or spirits, and I'm sure I don't use a lot of high tech. I guess that I always saw Ultrasound as "new and rare" in many of my older games, so I just haven't touched it much in the new edition.
I know the fact that it has gotten out of hand is my fault, that's why I asked for advice. I suspect paying closer attention to the modifiers for multiple opponents and upping the magic an tech levels may well solve my problem out of hand.
Also, I know it's only a problem that comes up in combat, and while combat is not the focus of my game, it is common. I was just a bit put off because I don't really feel like they're acting like a group. The mage gives the troll a quick buff (he sustains the spell) and then basically pats him on the rear and sends him on his way. The Adept isn't a great combat build, so he basically sits back and watches the action. That has gotten better, but I just feel like every time combat begins everyone else starts to feel inadequate. I was hoping to change that by negating a little bit of the troll's advantage without specifically knocking the mage out to get rid of the counterspelling.
It hadn't occurred to me to try smoke to break LOS, so that is a particularly good idea, and I'll try to focus a bit more on tactical attacks rather than just shooting at him, which I think will help even more.
Thanks for all the help.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.