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Brahm
Better yet than disembarking you should have just had the them try run the bastard over, if possible. Check out the damage from getting run over by vehicle. Mind bogglingly scary for something with as big a Body as the Citymaster. I haven't checked out the Troll's character sheet yet, but if nothing it'll make him burn Edge. Just to stay alive. cool.gif If he's smart he'll be burning the Edge to avoid getting hit to start with.

"Never get out of the boat. Absolutely goddamn right." - Captain Willard
Cabral
QUOTE (Masterofthegame)
As for the character in question, I have a copy he gave me in excel format here.

This is a blank sheet. Looks sharp though.

Glad to hear back from you. From the sounds of it, it sounds like the situation is not so bad as it initially appeared. smile.gif
Masterofthegame
QUOTE (Cabral)
This is a blank sheet. Looks sharp though.

Glad to hear back from you. From the sounds of it, it sounds like the situation is not so bad as it initially appeared. smile.gif

Ack, sorry. Wrong link.

Here is the correct one.
Cabral
1 Charisma? He offends people by just being present. Plus Reduce Charisma would take him out of a fight with minimal effort.

If he's rushing in like that, it shows boldness and a strong force of personality; you may want to suggest he spend some karma on boosting charisma to reflect that.

I assume he's raised his edge above one by now?
Oracle
The stats don't look extreme.

Is it possible that the invisibility spell is the only true problem?
The Jopp
Ultrasound, Motion sensors etc takes care of invisibility.

You could even use a sensor with some kind of vibration sensor to sense where people walk on the floor and a heavy troll would light up on sensors like a lighthouse.

Brahm
The character as a whole isn't particularly gross, I'm a bit confused about where the 2 extra points for the Ruger come from? Not the 7 for the specialization, but the 9?

But that Uncouth with a Charisma of 1 and not a social skill in sight? Ouchies. All you have to do is touch on that one glaring problem area once a session and he's in all sorts of trouble. Especially with low Edge since the only way to even roll those forced Etiquette tests is a Long Shot. I likely would have had a chat with the player beforehand about that, and strongly encouraged him to round out the character. Because that is such a brutal handicap that played to it's potential could really dominate the game, in a mayhem way, and likely eventually have the rest of team absolutely hating him for the problems he drags them into. frown.gif

Oh, and if he hasn't seriously boosted his Edge with karma purchases he would have been so hooped if that Citymaster driver had any meaningful driving skill and had turned on him to try run him down.
Masterofthegame
I'm sure his edge has increased. It seems to me the last time I asked it was a three. This is his first 4E game, and I don't think he quite understood how cool it was at creation. The 9 pistol skill is after figuring in his Smartlink.

I've been really trying to play up the troll with 1 Charisma thing, but it doesn't bother him in the least. I'd say it's at least partially responsible for much of the combat in the game. Now the group just leaves him at home except when they are on missions. In fact, that will be the focus of our next game.

I think that I'll have the group be set up when they go to get their next mission. It'll force the others to work without relying on the troll, and will remind the troll why it's not always ok to sit at home.

I've been trying to avoid it, because I hate to have one guy sit on his thumbs while the others play, but I think it'll drive home some of his social disadvantages.
Brahm
QUOTE (Masterofthegame @ Aug 29 2006, 09:14 AM)
I've been trying to avoid it, because I hate to have one guy sit on his thumbs while the others play, but I think it'll drive home some of his social disadvantages.

Ya, it'll be awkward and boring for him. But if you warned him up front it seems more than fair game. EDIT Even if you didn't explicitly warn him, I'll assume he did read the text of the Uncouth Quality. cyber.gif It sounds like it is unfolding as could be expected.

1) Troll causes absolute rukus.
2) The incidents of rukus dominate the game in a way that annoys the other players.
2) Team gets pissed off/wise.
3) Team leaves Troll at home.

Now the inevitable 'Troll is at home when a action breaks out. Troll player sits and watches.'

Personally I would have done him a favour and never have let a firsttimer make such a crippled character. But that's the past. Now is the time stop coddling and let him see why he should start spending karma or cash and Essense on those social skills and maybe start planning tosave up the 40 karma and a Miss Manner's crash course he'll need to get rid of the Uncouth. lick.gif

Or maybe he'll have interest in playing a different character? Once again it is my personal take, but I'd cut him some slack. Let him know if he comes back with a much more rounded character, perhaps not even a Troll, I'd give him at least a significant fraction of the karma this character has earned. Afterall he's likely to have lots of time next session to work on building another character. wink.gif

P.S. Edge 3 is probably bare minimum, depending on the style of game you play.
2bit
that's rough for a guy's first character. at least he'll be real familiar with the game's combat system smile.gif It's always a bit awkward when a team member becomes, well, a liability and misses out on a lot of the game.
Samaels Ghost
QUOTE
I hate to have one guy sit on his thumbs


You mean twiddle his thumbs and sit on his hands? Just thought this was funny, I'd never heard this before biggrin.gif

I'd be concerned if I were you. A character that drags the party into battle tends turn the game into a hacknslashfest. Boring. Also, if you scale the encounters to the troll, the other party members wll get owned. If you scale the encounters to the rest of the party, the troll will own everybody else. This is a variant of what happened in my game, except in mine it was an elf with insane gun skills and the Concealment power. No challenge unless I made things too hard for everybody else.

I like Brahm's second idea above, suggest he make a new, more balanced character. Give him some transistion Karma to soften the blow or even how much Karma his old character had unless that was a lot. It'll make the game that much more fun. Just monitor the character creation process to make sure he doesn't munchkin his character again.
ARKARY
It seems to me that playing up the notoriety would make sense. If this guy's drawing a lot of attention to himself, there's going to be a lot of upset people after him. And if the rest of the team is trying to get around the CHA 1 weakness by leaving him behind in situations where it would be a problem, that's a good time to "strike."

How about this: rest of the team goes off for whatever and leaves Mr. Troll at home twiddling his thumbs.

Lone Star found out his home address.

Without his mage buddies to provide backup, a Lone Star mage casts Decrease Charisma, turning the massive killing machine into a drooling, motionless idiot, and he's arrested without a shot fired.

As a sort of sub-plot, the team can try to bust him out, but they'll have to do it without the direct assistance of Mr. Kill as he's locked up with another (lonely) troll named Bubba who doesn't take too kindly to his lack of "manners".
Cabral
QUOTE (Brahm)
The character as a whole isn't particularly gross, I'm a bit confused about where the 2 extra points for the Ruger come from? Not the 7 for the specialization, but the 9?

Skill of 5
Specialization +2 dice pool
Smartlink +2 dice pool
smile.gif
Shrike30
"Decrease Charisma" is one of the mage's "Troll of Doom"-killer spells of choice. Any time you manage to reduce a mental attribute to zero, the character essentially turns into a drooling vegetable.
Brahm
QUOTE (Cabral @ Aug 29 2006, 11:28 AM)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Aug 29 2006, 09:00 AM)
The character as a whole isn't particularly gross, I'm a bit confused about where the 2 extra points for the Ruger come from? Not the 7 for the specialization, but the 9?

Skill of 5
Specialization +2 dice pool
Smartlink +2 dice pool

He already mentioned that. The confusing part for me was that it wasn't listed on any of the firearm skill lines, so it suggested something special about the specialization.

Now that I look again the gear list doesn't include the required extra SL accessory for the Warhawk, the only pistol mentioned in his gear list. The Ares Alpha does come standard with a Smartlink, but the Ruger Warhawk does not.

P.S. I think the Specialization would normally be "Revolvers", not model specific.
Masterofthegame
QUOTE (Brahm)
Or maybe he'll have interest in playing a different character? Once again it is my personal take, but I'd cut him some slack. Let him know if he comes back with a much more rounded character, perhaps not even a Troll, I'd give him at least a significant fraction of the karma this character has earned. Afterall he's likely to have lots of time next session to work on building another character. wink.gif

I wish he did have an interest in playing something else, but he doesn't. I'll ratchet up the flaws in his build a bit though, and if it bothers him, then perhaps he will consider something else.

QUOTE (Samael's Ghost)
You mean twiddle his thumbs and sit on his hands? Just thought this was funny, I'd never heard this before biggrin.gif


Posting at 9am is bad enough when it's early. Posting at 9am when it's late because you've been up all night is really bad smile.gif

QUOTE (Samael's Ghost)
I'd be concerned if I were you. A character that drags the party into battle tends turn the game into a hacknslashfest. Boring. Also, if you scale the encounters to the troll, the other party members wll get owned. If you scale the encounters to the rest of the party, the troll will own everybody else. This is a variant of what happened in my game, except in mine it was an elf with insane gun skills and the Concealment power. No challenge unless I made things too hard for everybody else.


That's exactly my worry. It's funny, I've been playing Shadowrun for a great many years, and I've seen variations on the "Troll Tank" a great many times, but it's never been a problem before. I think that a lot of my problem isn't just that the build is tough, but that the player is kind of obnoxious about it, and the other players just aren't proactive enough to put things back in their favor.

Three more weeks until I start playing with the full group, then our 3 players will become 6. Perhaps then he'll be drowned out a bit.

The greatest reason I wanted to deal with this now is so that he doesn't build this exact same character in the new group. I'm hoping that, if I show him his faults over the next three games, he'll build a more well-rounded character in the future.

As it is, he's so excited about it that he basically has another player wanting to play a very similar ork.

QUOTE (ASKARY)
It seems to me that playing up the notoriety would make sense. If this guy's drawing a lot of attention to himself, there's going to be a lot of upset people after him. And if the rest of the team is trying to get around the CHA 1 weakness by leaving him behind in situations where it would be a problem, that's a good time to "strike."

How about this: rest of the team goes off for whatever and leaves Mr. Troll at home twiddling his thumbs.

Lone Star found out his home address.

Without his mage buddies to provide backup, a Lone Star mage casts Decrease Charisma, turning the massive killing machine into a drooling, motionless idiot, and he's arrested without a shot fired.

As a sort of sub-plot, the team can try to bust him out, but they'll have to do it without the direct assistance of Mr. Kill as he's locked up with another (lonely) troll named Bubba who doesn't take too kindly to his lack of "manners".


Damn, I like this. Convince him that it sucks to be left alone. This might be a great adventure to wrap up our current game.
Brahm
QUOTE (Masterofthegame @ Aug 29 2006, 06:06 PM)
As it is, he's so excited about it that he basically has another player wanting to play a very similar ork.

Whatever you don't let him dominate the table longterm and drag the game into combatfest. I suspect, without actually knowing the player, that that would actually be encouragement. Here is to hoping that it'll help to let him cool his heals for the session or two because his character, an obnoxious slob, is someone the rest of the team doesn't want around. Make sure to not award his character karma similar levels of karma as the rest of the team.

Hate is not the opposite of Love. Indifference is.
apollo124
If you do end up needing to teach troll-boy a lesson, try some of these.

As others have recommended, say it with area effect weapons. Grenades of every shape and color are quite useful. Explosive, flechette, sleeping gas, tear gas, or my personal favorite, Incendiary grenades. Invisibility don't matter much when your clothes are on fire and people can aim at the spot the smoke is appearing from.

Firehoses spraying down an area could leave a troll shaped hole in the water puddles. Automatic fire with some unconventional weapons could work well. One of my favorite parts of The Incredibles was when Mr. Incredible got immobilized by lots of glue balls. Paint is another classic method of dealing with invisible people.

Snipers on the rooftop are a classic. Even more classic for the low charisma character, have an undercover op come after him. Preferably blond and stacked, with a warrant, a troll strength stun gun, and lots of backup. For reference, I recommend the movie Sin City, think Marvin and Goldie, Marvin being your no-social-skill troll.

I think I need to turn off the tv sometimes.
Warmaster Lah
QUOTE (Masterofthegame)
Okay, I have a problem.† I have a troll in my group that has become truly obnoxious, and the last time he played kind of put it over the edge.† He's so tough that the group has been sending him into fights alone, and just giving him cover.

Without specifically targeting him with high-force spirits or something I'm not sure how to realistically make him aware that he's not all-powerful.† He doesn't even have a huge amount of Karma.† 30 or 40 maybe.† The problem is that he has a high body and high willpower, coupled with great armor and the group mage counterspelling he's nearly invincible.† Follow that up with a quick improved invisibility, and he's nigh-unstoppable.

Add in a combat axe, Ares Alpha, and a Ruger super warhawk, and he's a killing machine.† In the last game he got a lucky shot against a Citymaster with his warhawk, stopping it in its tracks, and then killed everyone inside when the troops came out to fight him.† His high force invis made him almost impossible to hit, and his armor stopped anything that did hit.† Between the mage's counterspells and his willpower, not even the old manabolt works.

He's so convinced that he has the ultimate character build that it has gotten obnoxious.† All he ever does is talk about how he constantly saves the team.

So, what do I do?† I know there is always the spirit option, and I've used it, which forced the team adept to actually get out and do something, but short of swarming him every time he gets out of the car, nothing seems to scare him.


Ok one of the things that glare out to me is the Citymaster fight. Ok I donít know the details of the run of courseÖ But it is my understanding that runners usually donít stick around to tangle with a serious Police threat like that. (Unless they were hired to). And killing officers!? Feth are they trying to bring down a storm on their heads? How can they even walk the streets without getting chased by cops?

Wouldnít a City master have a rigger (with drones)?

I mean I like high action and all but how useful is a combat moster like that on a shadowrun. I donít know about you guys but Iíd try to minimize the loss of life on a run and staaay out of the spotlight. Sure you gotta do what you gotta do when Corp Hit-teams are raining down on you but tangling with the Star out in the openÖ

Were your runners trapped or something?


My adviceÖ teach this team a lesson by making themselves face a mirror image of their own team and tactics. At the end, if they are smart enough, they will get the point you are trying to make. Heck add two Trolls to the enemy team just to spice it up. Hell you have story justification right already. Those cops he killed had families. When the Policia failed to bring your team in for justice. Say those families pooled their money together and hired a team to get revenge for them. Bam there you go.
kzt
QUOTE (Warmaster Lah)

I mean I like high action and all but how useful is a combat moster like that on a shadowrun. I donít know about you guys but Iíd try to minimize the loss of life on a run and staaay out of the spotlight.  Sure you gotta do what you gotta do when Corp Hit-teams are raining down on you but tangling with the Star out in the openÖ



Lone Star as written isn't that awful. Knight Errant, now they are dangerous. Ever see in the news how some terrorist in Arafatstan is driving down the street and an air-ground missile from an Israeli drone turns him, his buddies, and the car into flambe? That's KE dealing with annoying runner team that has a member who canít keep his trap shut or who has just made too many enemies.
Oracle
QUOTE (apollo124 @ Aug 30 2006, 07:57 PM)
Paint is another classic method of dealing with invisible people.

...that would horribly fail in this case. The paint would be affected by the spell like any piece of gear the troll is carrying. Possibly he would leave footprints...

QUOTE (kzt @ Aug 30 2006, 09:26 PM)
Lone Star as written isn't that awful.

You did never read the description of Lone Star's responses in high threat situations from the "New Seattle" sourcebook, did you? In my opinion two Ares Mobmasters, each with two riggers, one for driving and one for weapons, manned by a full SWAT unit, two security mages, drone cover, one or two choppers and any equipment necessary is more than a serious threat to every team of shadowrunners. At least in my universe. wink.gif
kzt
QUOTE (Oracle)

You did never read the description of Lone Star's responses in high threat situations from the "New Seattle" sourcebook, did you? In my opinion two Ares Mobmasters, each with two riggers, one for driving and one for weapons, manned by a full SWAT unit, two security mages, drone cover, one or two choppers and any equipment necessary is more than a serious threat to every team of shadowrunners. At least in my universe. wink.gif

Sure, If you are still there a half hour later when they show up. But they won't typically just blow you up a few days later with a bolt out of the blue.

The Star tends to be focused at playing the police role, so evidence, chain of custody, etc tends to matter. And if they don't actually catch you red handed they typically have to use police methods. Which doesn't typically include assassinations.

KE isn't the cops, and they don't have to pretend to be them to runners who screw them over.
Critias
QUOTE (kzt)
KE isn't the cops, and they don't have to pretend to be them to runners who screw them over.

Sure they are. Maybe not in the bulk of Seattle, but remember, KE has the same "security contract" Lone Star does for plenty of other cities, for plenty of Seattle neighborhoods, etc, etc. That's why they're called business competitors, dude. Knight Errant very much is the cops in many places (just as much as Lone Star is), and very much does have to pretend to be them (just as much as Lone Star does).
PBTHHHHT
Both are corporations with deniable assets for dealing with things that are being a pain to their bottom line. In this case, if the runners are causing too much pain to their forces or to their image/public perception that they can handle the criminal elements on the street, then I can see either corporations having individuals in their organization giving the green light to have some unfortunate incident happen to the runners. They can chalk it up as an explosion caused by the runners due to their inept handling of explosives or any other thing to take out these runners.
Firewall
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT)
Both are corporations with deniable assets for dealing with things that are being a pain to their bottom line.

Hire the troll-team, give them special new guns that suddenly stop working once they go up against the 'targets' who are in fact well-trained and armed Knights Errant instead of a small go-gang. Let them escape the initial fire-fight without killing any of them.

Now, they are stuck without weapons in a bad place. To survive, they need everything but combat ability.
PBTHHHHT
Hmmm... that's another thing, hire them and send them far away from Seattle. To some place where they don't have a contract so they don't have to worry about them. Send them to an exotic place like Yucatan Peninsula (during the height of the conflict), drop them off in the middle of a desert, etc... Just have their return ride 'fail' to show up.
lorechaser
I don't think KE would even need to provide much reason.

"They were a team of known Shadowrunners. They blew up. I can't say I'm surprised, but we didn't have anything to do with it."
James McMurray
Definitely. If anything, letting the public think they may have had something to do with it would only increase their rep among everyone but the runner wannabes.
Lagomorph
In fact, I bet that KE would probably take credit on TPK shadowrun teams that they didn't even kill.
Shrike30
"One of our Thor systems misfired into the Yucatan Peninsula, with, uh... no injuries. We've traced it down to a bug in the system, and it's been fixed. We apologize for any inconvenience that it may have caused. Yes, you there, in the back? No, we don't know why a combat axe was found at the site, embedded in the front of the penetrator. We think a team of shadowrunners may have gone out there and attempted to chop a hunk of the tungsten off to sell on the black market, but given up after the axe was ineffectual at damaging the penetrator."
hyzmarca
The best way to take out a CHA1 troll, aside from cheesy reduce CHA spells, is to use a Pornomancer Adept.

Picture it: Invincible Troll is in the heat of combat, wading through cops left and right and ripping the armor off of a Citymaster with his bare hands.
.... Suddenly, the Citymaster opens up and out steps Officer Fragmore. The Troll, enraged at Fragmore's audacity charges with axe in hand. But, Fragmore is undaunted. With a smirk on his face he reveals his secret weapon. His absurdly revealing police uniform is held together by velcro. In one deft manuver the officer rips his pants away to reveal a thong that to two sizes too small. His shirt quickly follows. The heroic policeman begins gyrating his lithe and muscular body and the Invincible Troll swoons, having failed his save vs. wands and staves, and falls into Officer Fragmore's arms. His combat axe hits the ground with a clatter.



You see, the Pornomancer Adept has upwards of 30 seduction dice before edge, if he is built well. The Invincible Troll has 0 seduction resistance dice before edge.
Even if the Troll was extremely homophobic before the seduction test he'll be willing to experiment a little after it.
Lazerface
Don't forget the orgasm spell cast by Officer Fragmore's partner, Officer Darling.
Masterofthegame
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
The best way to take out a CHA1 troll, aside from cheesy reduce CHA spells, is to use a Pornomancer Adept.

Picture it: Invincible Troll is in the heat of combat, wading through cops left and right and ripping the armor off of a Citymaster with his bare hands.
.... Suddenly, the Citymaster opns up and out steps Officer Fragmore. The Troll, enraged at Fragmore's audacity charges with axe in hand. But, Fragmore is undaunted. With a smirk on his face he reveals his secret weapon. His absurdly revealing police uniform is held together by velcro. In one deft manuver the officer rips his pants away to reveal a thong that to two sizes too small. His shirt quickly follows. The heroic policeman begins gyrating his lithe and muscular body and the Invincible Troll swoons, having failed his save vs. wands and staves, and falls into Officer Fragmore's arms. His combat axe hits the ground with a clatter.



You see, the Pornomancer Adept has upwards of 30 seduction dice before edge, if he is built well. The Invincible Troll has 0 seduction resistance dice before edge.
Even if the Troll was evtremely homophobic before the seduction test he'll be willing to experiment a little after it.

Dear God, that's....

I'm stuck between amazing and sick.
PBTHHHHT
I'm kinda on the puking side right now, my ipod was playing some techno music while I was reading it. Ugh, now it's stuck in my head, the image and song. Damn you Hyz, I think this is about the second or third time you've stuck some nasty concept in my head. nyahnyah.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT @ Aug 31 2006, 11:08 PM)
I'm kinda on the puking side right now, my ipod was playing some techno music while I was reading it.  Ugh, now it's stuck in my head, the image and song.  Damn you Hyz, I think this is about the second or third time you've stuck some nasty concept in my head.  nyahnyah.gif

You should blame Glyph and Frakula. They pioneered the Pornomancer concept.
Surely someone remembers this thread.
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...opic=11911&st=0


QUOTE (Glyph)
Meh, I dunno if I'd do it, anyways. 33 dice is nice, but 34 dice is kind of edging into munchkin territory, ya know?


grinbig.gif grinbig.gif

And blame yourself, too.

QUOTE (PBTHHHHT)

I just can't help but think of that Mango character from SNL after reading all this...

"Can you know the mighty ocean? Can you lasso a star from the sky? Can you say to a rainbow... 'Hey, stop being a rainbow for a second'? No! such is Mango!"




But, you know, maybe you should just be up front with the player instead of finding ways to break his character. Unless he enjoys having his character broken bringing out the pronomancers may just seem childishly passive-aggressive.
Cabral
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
the Invincible Troll swoons, having failed his save vs. wands and staves, and falls into Officer Fragmore's arms.

Technically, I suppose that would be Composure (Charisma+Willpower, so 4 dice total)
apollo124
Backing away from the pornomancer topic, you might also utilize dual natured creatures, like hellhounds to go after the troll, or perhaps a gang of ghouls. You could hire the team to do jobs like bodyguarding which wouldn't (probably) require staring down a citymaster.

Send them on a bug hunt. Even someone who takes down HTR teams before breakfast will jump back when a juggernaut charges. Vampires, wendigo, or scarier for the troll the dzoo-noo-qua, basilisks, or any of a number of awakened critters can provide some challenge to the whole crew.

I need a life. I didn't even have to check how to spell dzoo-noo-qua.
Warmaster Lah
QUOTE (kzt @ Aug 31 2006, 04:55 PM)
QUOTE (Oracle @ Aug 31 2006, 12:31 AM)

You did never read the description of Lone Star's responses in high threat situations from the "New Seattle" sourcebook, did you? In my opinion two Ares Mobmasters, each with two riggers, one for driving and one for weapons, manned by a full SWAT unit, two security mages, drone cover, one or two choppers and any equipment necessary is more than a serious threat to every team of shadowrunners. At least in my universe. wink.gif

Sure, If you are still there a half hour later when they show up. But they won't typically just blow you up a few days later with a bolt out of the blue.

The Star tends to be focused at playing the police role, so evidence, chain of custody, etc tends to matter. And if they don't actually catch you red handed they typically have to use police methods. Which doesn't typically include assassinations.

KE isn't the cops, and they don't have to pretend to be them to runners who screw them over.

But I'm not even talking about Assassination.

A cop gets killed in 2006 and they pull out all the stops to catch the criminals. And for carnage like this. I'd expect them to be on most wanted lists. And thats legal.

If they came after you and you opened fire on them.... we'll. You might get Stop... BANG! BANG! BANG!.. or we'll open fire!

Deep Blue man, has anyone watched that movie? I'm sure things are worse in 2070.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Cabral @ Sep 1 2006, 02:52 AM)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Aug 31 2006, 04:37 PM)
the Invincible Troll swoons, having failed his save vs. wands and staves, and falls into Officer Fragmore's arms.

Technically, I suppose that would be Composure (Charisma+Willpower, so 4 dice total)

Dude, if the troll doesn't swoon upon seduction then they would have to RP out that scene. I'm sure that the troll's player would happily forgoe the composure test to avoid that. The troll is going to go down one way or the other. It is best for everyone's sanity that it is not the other.

QUOTE (apollo124)
Send them on a bug hunt. Even someone who takes down HTR teams before breakfast will jump back when a juggernaut charges. Vampires, wendigo, or scarier for the troll the dzoo-noo-qua, basilisks, or any of a number of awakened critters can provide some challenge to the whole crew.


Cyberzombies. Don't forget cyberzombies. Heck, one could just convert First Run. Since it is designed to be an introductory adventure, the players will be surprised when they are TPKed by a three-armed cyborg monstronsity with absurdly high stats and near-immunity to magic.
Glyph
Meh, dunno about the cyberzombie. It would be tough for the troll to handle, but everyone else would be even worse off. I think there need to be challenges that the troll is less suited for, if you are looking to nudge him out of the spotlight some of the time.

Pornomancers may be funnier than snipers, even snipers with Panther cannons, but I agree with hyzmarca that they are nothing but a similar bullying tactic.

Does the adept, non-buff build notwithstanding, have either killing hands or a weapon focus? Spirits, with immunity to normal weapons as one of their powers, would be one way to let the adept shine. Sure, the troll will still be able to hurt them, but they will be rolling far fewer dice to resist the adept's attacks. And the mage would be more effective against them, too, in a less supportive and more offensive role.
snowRaven
Hmmm - there are a few spells that could be used by a talented mage.

Decrease Charisma (which can be considered cheating)
Orgasm (watch the troll go...)
Agony
Confusion
Chaos

...or any other spell that targets Charisma, Intuition or Logic - all of which I assume Mr. Troll doesn't excel in.

Use a good hacker to mess with his gear.

Other spells that give dice pool modifiers.

Hmm - target the troll's armor with a Wreck spell...

Levitate. One net success is enough to slowly move Mr. Troll up up and awayyyyyy and drop him again.
Serbitar
Levitate is an opposed test vs Body+Strength!
Masterofthegame
So, we made characters for the new game tonight, and ran a quicky mission to get the new players used to their characters. After a good long talk, some reassurances, and a vieled threat ot two I managed to convince the problem player that his one-dimensional troll was a problem waiting to happen. It helped that in our last fight of the old game an enemy spellcaster managed to hit him with two seperate manabolts. The first was without the group's mage being able to counterspell, and the second punched through the counterspell. After two seperate attacks for 7P net damage (each) he got the picture.

And then I used the pornomancer threat smile.gif

Seriously though, we talked, I pointed out the fact that a not-particularly-powerful mage managed to nearly kill his troll fairly easily. The troll couldn't figure out who was casting the spells, and he ran into the room first, and out of sight of the group's mage, leaving him unprotected. I just reminded him that if he wanted to be the front-line fighter such thigs would happen fairly frequently.

He gave in and built a more reasonable orc adept. Still a little mentally weak, but no serious negative qualities. A much better build.

Anywho, thanks for all the help.
Nacht
Greeting all
I am the said troll in in question and I would like to clarify a few things. First about me. Although this was my first SR4 game I am an experanced SR3 player with an emotional attachment to trolls. (Good times when you have 3 troll like characters with combat axes in an elevator). 2nd All your ideas for dealing with the troll are excellant and would work if I was that cocky but even I know when to turn tail and run (just takes more than usual for most party members) As for the Troll himsself he is very limited to one thing and thats primarily Mellee combat with pistols as a back up, (Although I do admit I think I missed the need to buy the SL link seperatly for the ruger super warhawk.) His job is to handle all combat for the party as the point man but outside of combat he does take a back seat. All negotiations are done by the mage and all spirits are handled by the physad and mage we had in the party. I did take a swing at the spirit with my combat axe and it luaghed at me so I went after the 6 heavly armed security squad and city master instead, it was a better target for me than the spirit. Also my troll was never covered by counterspelling since our mage was very new as a player to SR in general.
As for the situation in question and the Ares City Master there are some points to clarify on that as well. The job took place in the Indian Nations so no lonestar or Knights Arant per say. We had set up an ambush on a convoy from a bridge to stop the convoy to steal some cargoe. As for the city master it was not one shot. It actually took about 5 shots with 3 being completly ineffective and the city master was only damaged, not stopped. It decided to retreat and when it did we ran for the hills too and one of our party members got geeked when the mage dropped the physads invisibility instead of mine where I could have taken more punishment than the physad could have. As for the conversation about making a new character I had already retired the troll due to not playing in that game anymore because of scheduling issues and I am also partial to Physads so I am playing in a different SR game with masterofthegame on a different day.
I am aware of all the counter troll actions that are available and it is the trolls weakness to deal with magic or paracritters which is why I don't play one if there is no magic capability on our side. As for leading off with violence its the only option when the entire party has no Breaking and Entering skills or capabilities so it leaves to a more direct approach method although the Troll does have some sneaking capability and he never ramapged on innocent civilians, helpless civilians or police who left the area. I only dealt with immediate threats.

PS as for the suggestion on flanking and smoke the troll also had the ultrasound motion sensor and spatial recognizer so this tactic would not have been as effective though still potentially dangerous. As for a GM ratcheting up the encounter I do enjoy a challange for any character I build although I would have had to change tactics to deal with each of the suggested situations. The troll is tough but he is not stupid. Can the troll be killed? Sure just like any other SR character can. It just takes the right situation and some bad dice rolls to make it happen. If I couldn't deal with the city master you bet we would have run.

As for the social settings limitation I have discussed this before with the GM before we started this game and its a limitation the GM has to enforce although the troll primarly stays in the seedy parts of town where a trog wisecrack will get one a hamfist to the gut very fast. Upperparts of town are avoided as security scrutiny is to much to bear. Happy hunting all.
Cabral
QUOTE (Nacht)
Greeting all
I am the said troll in in question and I would like to clarify a few things.

Heh. Your telling of things seems much more reasonable. smile.gif

Good luck with the Ork. (Though I hope we didn't discourage you from playing trolls)
silhouette
A lot of the ways to dealw ith this character are tougher and tougher fights. I think this will backfire because if the troll survives everyone in the team will see that the bar has been raised and will think of ways to push their characters to make them even harder.
If the troll dies then his replacement will shore up the few holes he has in his defences.
And the rest of the team will think "OMG even the invinci troll didn't survive we need to be more powerful" and they will all hit the books looking for every ounce of power.

I think the best bet is to set some missions that emphasise the skills of your other team members. Put the mage centre stage for a run, then some of the others. Have a mission that requires talking and Mojo, understanding spirits... bit of fighting as it is SR after all, but mostly intelligence and personal skills to win through.

Also Notoriety is your friend. Start handing it out. Let the charismatic charicters have the opportunity for to improve their own names, but your uncouth troll is screwed.


You can never discourage a behaviour you don't like in your characters by meeting it head on with tougher challenges to that behaviour. You have to change tack.
Butterblume
QUOTE (Nacht)
Greeting all

Always nice to see there is a brain behind a PC wink.gif.

Of course, that makes you very dangerous to the GM... biggrin.gif
kzt
QUOTE (silhouette)
A lot of the ways to dealw ith this character are tougher and tougher fights. I think this will backfire because if the troll survives everyone in the team will see that the bar has been raised and will think of ways to push their characters to make them even harder.
If the troll dies then his replacement will shore up the few holes he has in his defences.
And the rest of the team will think "OMG even the invinci troll didn't survive we need to be more powerful" and they will all hit the books looking for every ounce of power.

A friend of mine once ran a {non SR} campaign where you started with a kevlar coverall and a stunner as issued equipment. He pointed out that you could buy whatever you wanted, but he'd feel obliged to increase the threat model is response.

We should have stuck to the stunner. . . .
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