 Invincible Troll, Help with an annoying player/character |
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 Aug 26 2006, 08:48 AM
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#26
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087  |
Yeah, well, I'm telling you that's not what it look likes. Beside, these vans could hardly do 20 men / hour worth of life support and wouldn't have armor 20 body 16 at any rate. Armor 20 stops a panther cannon cold. |
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Aug 26 2006, 08:52 AM
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#27
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, yeah. your probably right.
heh, kinda funny that those variants on my second link have the name bull-dog :P anyone up for a bulldog step van? |
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Aug 26 2006, 08:53 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Alright, I gotcha. Don't know much about guns or the vehicles in question, so my opinion is far from valid there. One thing I do have a clue about, though, is magic. I play a mage/hacker, so I'll give a few more tips and tricks to counter masterofthegame's IT.
You don't have to throw a huge spirit at him to humble him. Low-force, bound spirits can be very effective when attacking as a group. They get the bonus for friends in melee and he gets the negative for defending against all of them. Using swarms of watcher spirits against the team's mage can help too, but only if the guy is dual natured/projecting. With the GM's approval you could even have watchers manifest and try blocking the trolls veiw. They may be translucent, but together they can be a hinderance and very distracting. Give him visibility modifiers for that. Spirits are great becuase they can be there right when the trouble starts, within seconds of an alarm. After materializing they are vulnerable to getting disrupted and will gladly use Edge to down scary trolls and save their own hoops. Don't forget spirit edge. It can make modest Force spirits formidible. Spirit powers like Movement can cripple the Troll, and Concealment on the Corp sec will give your Troll even more trouble than Imp Invis gives them. Unlike Invis, Concealment is a multi-sense effect. You can't pick up a Concealed corp-sec guy with Ultrasound, but you can see a invis Troll with Ultrasound :D The Engulf power on the mage can be deadly as mages generally don't have high Body or Strength, and that's what they resist being Engulfed with. The Accident power uses attributes other than Body or Will to resist (it uses Int+Rea i think). A few Accidents can humble a IT.
Argh, I didn't see that part before I wrote the stuff above. Methods of scaring a Troll other than spirits, huh? -Armor piercing (APDS and Monowhips) -Acid effects to eat his armor -Surprise and ambush -Other trolls with Bows -Adepts kick ass -Ritual Spellcasting (aka GM Magic :] ) Wait, Ritual Spellcasting isn't a bad idea. If your Troll doesn't keep his head down he could get cast on while off the clock. If a spirit shadows him back to his home, then a ritual spellcasting team can really mess him up in the middle of the night. Unless your mage and troll sleep together, he won't have protection against a ritual spell. And those spells can be VERY potent. Consider using spells that are touch (Death Touch, Decrease Attribute, Decrease Reflexes) and then ambushing him with shock troops. Catch him with his pants down. There's no reason not to if he has caused as much trouble as it sounds like he has. Corps have a pretty substantial "screw over terrorists" budget. Most importantly, stress that whatever the team can get away with, their enemies can most likely do it better. Corps have access to all the things that your runners do, plus numbers are on their side. A character as brash as this one will attract the undesired attention of one of these big names and the game will be over for old Invincible Troll. |
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Aug 26 2006, 08:57 AM
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#29
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, found this while digging some more on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:VAB_arm...er_DSC00846.jpg hmm, im not familiar with the abilitys of hellboy. so if i had been the GM after that stunt, i would start to wonder if the troll was planing to get himself colored either green or gray from top to bottom :P edit: err, it seems i have gotten two threads crossed. i guess thats what i guess for reading and posting on two threads about trolls and vehicle destruction at the same time... |
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Aug 26 2006, 09:21 AM
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#30
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
If this scene is what's prompted the "Hellboy" comparisons, I recall a time in the movie when a friendly character was trying to cross a busy street. An SUV was bearing down on Joe Normal (Hellboy's ally), and Hellboy suddenly intervened -- an overhand punch smacked into the hood/engine block of the SUV, hitting it so hard the car flipped trunk-over-headlights (missing Hellboy and his buddy), before landing on all four wheels a few feet past them.
Which is, well, a pretty impressive punch. |
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Aug 26 2006, 10:17 AM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
Actually, RAW, no. If he does not reduce the Power of the Toxin to 0 with his resitance test, it takes effect based on its remaining power level (p 245). and Gamma-Scopolamine (p 246) is either all or nothing, with no effect on reaction. As to what a Citymaster looks like, the Rigger Black Book has a pick of it. It look like a blocky long armored truck, like an APC crossed with an RV. I think there's a picture on this page. I think in addition to being the vehicle of choice for SR security teams, it's also meant to fill the mobile command post (ie, in the movies, when the police are in a big van/truck parked outside of a hostage situation ... replace that with a citymaster) I wouldn't say it has tires per say ... more like rubber coated steel drums. |
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Aug 26 2006, 10:49 AM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Since gamma-scopolamine induces paralysis it follows the rules on 245.
I wasn't exactly right in my previous post, the stuff doesn't actually reduce Reaction. But it is neccesary for the Power to exceed Reaction to paralyze the target. If the power is completely resisted, nothing happens If the power is reduced to below the target's Reaction, a -2 mod is suffered and the truth serum effect will kick in within an hour If the power exceeds the target's Reaction, there will be paralysis followed by the truth serum effect. |
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Aug 26 2006, 10:51 AM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
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Aug 26 2006, 11:23 AM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 165 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,002 |
have him meet his clone with another group giving him cover over the player characters.
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Aug 26 2006, 11:32 AM
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#35
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
It would be nice to have actual data instead of vague descriptions.
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Aug 26 2006, 12:14 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 313 Joined: 5-March 04 From: UK Member No.: 6,125 |
When the shooting starts, the building goes on high-alert. Blast doors, six inches of stainless steel, drop in front of the entrances to the lab (or whatever room houses the target) with a hiss and a click that suggests a hydraulic locking mechanism. The decker tells them that the door-reset is local-only. The alarm can be set off from anywhere in the building and shut off from the matrix but the blast doors can only be opened from a terminal in the building itself and cannot be opened for 8 hours after being triggered.
Better still, the door-lock is linked with a pressure sensor that checks the weight of anyone entering against a biometric database. This system is not linked to the matrix, so must be hacked locally and the IC is all programmed to shut the blast doors at the first sign of trouble, before attacking the decker. If the team have not reached the lab when the alarm goes off, they cannot collect their target. If the team are in the lab when it goes off, they are trapped. If the team have collected the item, they are lucky... |
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Aug 26 2006, 12:29 PM
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#37
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
First off the way you are describing him you seem to think his is all-powerful. ;) So what exactly is your adversity to having a spirit opponent? Or Troll or Orc physadept melee opponent for that matter, which will roughly approximate the other. If you want alternatives suggested beyond breaking up his mage support with smoke or a ward I think you need to come up with some harder numbers and more details. The character sheet for one would be handy. Another place to come up with some numbers is the Citymaster incident. Exactly what was your ruling that allowed the Citymaster to be stopped? It is a wheeled vehicle, runflats are a natural for it, and it has extra wheels to limp along with. If you are going to drop the coin for that much metal you don't want it having stop to change a flat every time some protester's shattered femur pokes into a tire. 8) Beyond that even if you allow a called shot you likely shouldn't remove all the Armor rating. Especially on a Citymaster. Even the windshield is going to be pretty damn resistant to damage. I likely wouldn't have a Called Shot bypass more than 4 or 6 Armor points. Then he took the passengers by himself with only the indirect help of the mage? Where was their mage support? If they have a mage astral he can do a quick astral scout before they disembark. Remember, geek the mage first. Even if the mage is using mage goggles these bad boys should have some means of neutralizing him with indirect fire, or the smoke as suggested above. They are a team, they should all be hooked up on a battle com system. Using sound tactics they are going to put the scare in folks. The last point is why are you so concerned? Sounds like the team is working together, and good things should happen if they do that. Besides you are providing a mix of situations not all of which come out well if they just blast there way through, right? So what is really wrong with PCs being badasses? |
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Aug 26 2006, 12:39 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 313 Joined: 5-March 04 From: UK Member No.: 6,125 |
If he took out a Citymaster, Lonestar will have his face on record. There may even be a bullet or six with his name on, all loaded into the clip on a Ranger Arm SM-3. One shot might not kill him but if you can shoot someone like that from 100 yards, you do so. Repeatedly...
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Aug 26 2006, 02:19 PM
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#39
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Yeah, I think we really need to see his stats.
To uh, find a way to beat him up, yeah. *looks around for his GM, sees nothing* |
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Aug 26 2006, 03:01 PM
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#40
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
What the german police use today, the Sonderwagen 4, also known as TM-170. Built by our friendly manufacturer Thyssen, today a big part of ThyssenKrupp (I just had to get that SaederKrupp reference in :cyber: ).
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Polizei_...Panzerwagen.jpg It's also in use as a military vehicle (In Macedonia, I think), under the name Hermelin. http://naoruzanje.paracin.co.yu/hermelin6.jpg (the Hermelin has space for 2+10 passengers). IIrc, the Ares Citymaster is bigger (and most likely better armoured). |
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Aug 26 2006, 04:27 PM
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#41
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
They just cast invisibility on the troll and go hide will he does all the heavy lifting. I don't call this working together. Working together is having everyone involved in the fight, even the less skilled combattant. The combat specialist takes the point but everyone is there to contribute. And correct use of the combat rules encourage this. Amongst other factors, if you are alone against many you quickly got no dodge dice left. --- That being said, the Troll should still always take the point in combat situation. It just sounds like it has degenarated to the point where the team use combat in situations where any other team would use sneakiness because of the "Invincibility" of the Troll. I may misinterpret the situation, though. |
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Aug 26 2006, 04:55 PM
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#42
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Ultrasound? Cheap!
And if I was the security team and was attacked by a an invisible Cybermonstertroll, I would go into cover and call the HTRT with heavy weapons. |
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Aug 26 2006, 05:06 PM
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#43
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Well, that's my first post in a nutshell. I need to learn to get to the point! |
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Aug 26 2006, 05:35 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237 |
How tough are your goons? What stats? Any cyber or combat drugs? What weapons (and ammo type)? Most importantly: are they using Infiltration and Full Defense?
Most non-Special Forces NPCs printed in the book have no chance of doding a shot by an out of the book Street Samurai, let alone a monster like this Troll. However, on Page 151 it specifically states that you can use Full Defense as an Interrupt Action. That means that no matter how fast Mr. Monster Samurai with Horns rolls on his initiative, the goons can roll Reaction + Dodge against him. They sacrifice their next available action to do this. On Page 151 it also specifically states that even when using Full Defense a character can still Walk or Run on their turn. So here's what you do. Your next goons have Ultrasound Goggles, Smoke Grenades, Urban Camouflage Suits (armor 8/6 and -2 to visual perception) with Thermal Dampening 2 and smartlinked AK-97s with Gas Vent and EX Explosive ammunition. They also grab the Dodge skill at 3 and a Specialization in Ranged Combat (see page 112). Ideally, they should have Wired Reflexes I but a dose of Jazz will work as well. You can price this stuff out on your own, but it's within everybody's budget. Upon contact, the goons will see your Troll with no problem (he's probably not trying to hide per say). Any goons who are actually attacked will use Full Defense as an Interrupt (losing their action in the First Initiative Pass). The Troll will either miss these goons or wound them but probably not kill them - they can defend with 10 dice and should have Good Cover. Anybody doing the Full Defense thing who is able will move to flank Mr. Troll - anybody wounded will Drop Prone to full cover and call for help. Remaining goons can pop smoke, try to let up 'el troll with wide bursts, etc. On Pass 2 Mr. Troll will open fire again. The smoke will go off, though. This won't bother the Ultrasound using goons, but might be a problem for the Troll in two ways (he can't see them, and if the mage can't see him he loses spell defense and invisibility). Next round, a couple goons will keep up the noisy gunfire and running around - they'll regularly call out the Troll's location in code. Meanwhile, one of their number will use Infiltration to get a flanking position. The endgame comes when the sneaky guard gets to a place where he has a shot at the troll with no cover and the troll is unaware of his position. Note that in order to make a perception test, the troll's player has to spend a Simple Action to Observe in Detail. He probably won't bother doing this, because the goons are obviously fighting in a cowardly fashion. The surprise test should give a significant bonus to the sneaky guard, who now has a good chance of winning. Spend Edge if necessary, that's what it's there for. With a failed Surprise Test, the Troll gets no Reaction or Dodge dice to defend - goon takes a called shot on a narrow burst to bypass armor and no more Mr. Troll guy. No spirits, no drones, no huge assault cannons. You just have to be willing to play your goons like they want to live first and fight second. That means Full Defense and Infiltration, because it's nice not to be hit and it's nicer still not to be targetted in the first place! |
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Aug 26 2006, 05:57 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
Okay a warhawk has a DV of 6 and AP -2 lets add EX Explosive ammo for +2 DV and -2 AP (total 8P / -4 AP). Now, he needs to exceed a 16 (20 armor -4 AP) DV in order to even affect the citymaster. So that means at least 9 net hits puting hs DV at 17.
The driver rolls reaction modified by handling (or Reaction+Vehicle Skill modified by handling if the driver decides to drive evasively). Let's assume an average of 1 hit, meaning the troll would need another hit (10 in all). So is it reasonable for him to achieve 10 hits? Lets assume he's unwounded (-0), has a smartlink (+2), has Image magnification to remove the range penalty (-0), is stationary (-0), uses his other simple action to aim (+1), calling a shot for +4 DV* (-4), and has perfect visibility or low-light vision in partial light (-0) for a total -1 dice pool modifier. *This is more effective than trying to bypass armor (-20 dice pool) and for these purposes is effective 4 automatic hits. Because he called a shot, only needs 6 hits and assuming every 3 dice in his pool equals on hit on average, he would need 18 dice remaining after the dice pool modifiers above, or 19 dice. With a maximum 13 Agility (5 Troll +4 Muscle Toner or Replacement+1 Suprathyroid gland +3 active adrenaline pump), it would require a 6 Pistols to to on average, make it throught the Citymaster. Now, if things get this far, he hits and pierces the armor, the city master rolls 32 dice, which can either automaticallly reduce the damage by 8 (from 17 to 9), or on average reduce it by 11 (from 17 to 6). Of course, it has 16 boxes on it's condition track. :) Sorry if this is all stuff you already knew, I went through it because it helped me understand it a little better (Such as though the AP entry says that AP reduces Armor for the damage resistance test, the Vehicle Armor description says you must exceed the modified armor, implying AP applies) |
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Aug 26 2006, 06:02 PM
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#46
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Stop right there.
A normal human with a wooden stick and lots of edge could eventually overcome the Armor rating of a Citmaster if you don't enforce that rule! And just so you all realize what it is the troll stopped with one revolver bullet : A Citymaster It couldn't have worked. |
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Aug 26 2006, 06:04 PM
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#47
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Not going to analyse your game-fu, but one assumption I'd question: You're driving an Ares Citymaster. Someone points a revolver at you. Do you really take evasive action. :rotfl: I'm with everyone else on this one. Post the bloody character sheet! |
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Aug 26 2006, 06:09 PM
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#48
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Troll have a maximum modified agility of 7. You have exploded it. Agility 5 = 65 BP Muscle Toner 4 = 6 BP (30K+) and availability 20 (AKA not legal for starting PC) Pistol 6 = 24 BP Adrenaline Pump 3 = 18 BP (90k) and availability 18 (not legal for starting PC) Troll = 40 BP That's 153 BP right there! I'm gonna assume that the original poster's PC (only 30 karma or so) didn't break the chargen rules this egregiously. |
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Aug 26 2006, 06:26 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
I apparently need to get the errata, my book (1st printing) says if the modified DV exceeds the modified armor rating ...
Also, I hadn't realized that the parenthetical 7 for Trolls' agility was their maximum augmented value. Wow. SR4 kneecapped power gamers ... (Edit: Also, not that I'm not the original poster) |
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Aug 26 2006, 06:29 PM
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#50
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
(Yep, edited my post) |
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