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Rentiger1
post Sep 1 2006, 02:52 PM
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This may be a question already asked, but I cannot find anything about it in the previous threads.

I am making a covert ops character strait from the templet. I am dropping the bland to gain 10 points back and then converting this into cash to buy cyberware to enhance my character.

What would be the best options to buy for a covert ops character with 50,000? I would like to keep the essence down as I may want to add more later. I was thinking bioware, as it cost the least essance.

Please help a semi-newbie
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lorechaser
post Sep 1 2006, 03:17 PM
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Bioware is cheap in essence, but high in cost. 50k won't get you a heck of a lot.

You could pick up muscle toners, for more agi, or pheromones, for persuasion.

However, I'd pick up a cyber eye rating 3 with all the bells and whistles. Same with a cyber ear. Then I'd get wired reflexes 1.

That'll cost about 2.5 essence, but it's all stuff you need. Why save the essence up for stuff you might need later? You'll only buy the same equipment now....

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Thanee
post Sep 1 2006, 04:27 PM
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Most standard cyber-/bioware doesn't cost that much. The only 'problem' will be your reflexes, since the only thing you really can afford there is a Wired Reflex 1.

Other than that, get some nifty cyberware eye or ear enhancements, bioware Muscle Augmentation/Toner, and you got the basics covered.

Bye
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Rentiger1
post Sep 1 2006, 04:50 PM
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The template comes with wired reflexes, so I would be adding on that with the 50k
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gunsnammo
post Sep 1 2006, 09:12 PM
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Actually if you want to save on essence I'd use goggles rather than cybereyes. They can do about as much as cybereyes but is cheaper and costs no essence.

gunsnammo

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ShadowDragon
post Sep 1 2006, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE (gunsnammo)
Actually if you want to save on essence I'd use goggles rather than cybereyes. They can do about as much as cybereyes but is cheaper and costs no essence.

gunsnammo

But if he wants to fit everything in there he's going to have an availability too high for chargen. You can fit everything but ultrasound into a combo of googles/glasses and contacts, however.
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Samaels Ghost
post Sep 1 2006, 10:25 PM
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QUOTE (ShadowDragon)
QUOTE (gunsnammo @ Sep 1 2006, 04:12 PM)
Actually if you want to save on essence I'd use goggles rather than cybereyes.  They can do about as much as cybereyes but is cheaper and costs no essence.

gunsnammo

But if he wants to fit everything in there he's going to have an availability too high for chargen. You can fit everything but ultrasound into a combo of googles/glasses and contacts, however.

I second this. You'll regret spending Essence on cybereyes/ears.
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kzt
post Sep 1 2006, 10:49 PM
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If you are doing a real "covert ops" kind of character wouldn't you want to skip the wired reflexes and use bioware or adept? Wired reflexes are detectable easily and mark you as someone clearly dangerous.
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Ravor
post Sep 4 2006, 02:00 AM
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Except of course if he uses GEAR as opposed to Cyber he is not only leaving himself open to losing his vision mods when he needs them he is also telling the world that he is using some sort of vision enhancing gear.

Personally I say that Cybereyes are one of the things that almost every character, Awakened or not should have, (Remember that vision mods paid for with Essence can be used to target spells.) Cyberears are almost a 'must-have for non-Awakened as well...
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Samaels Ghost
post Sep 4 2006, 02:55 AM
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QUOTE
Cyberears are almost a 'must-have for non-Awakened as well...


Why?

And if someone is intent on taking away your stuff, they will. Whether it's in your head or not. Anyone can disable your cybereyes, then you're screwed. If you have normal eyes, they take away your goggles and you can still see. I say mister Mundane Eyes wins, especially since he paid less cash and Essence.
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Gort
post Sep 4 2006, 03:08 AM
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Yeah, since this is "covert ops on a budget", I'd go for cyberware that can't be replicated with gear, namely wired reflexes 2.

Spend the rest on gear, including some nice night vision goggles and a chameleon suit.

Of course, this guy is obviously up to no good, and as others have mentioned, he will be detected if he tries to walk through a cyberware scanner. So, the solution is to not walk through any (funtioning) cyberware scanners! Get a good perception and intuition so you can spot sensors, and a decent hardware and logic so you can disable them! Sneak past guards instead of trying to bluff your way in.

And if the shit does go down, as it inevitably does sooner or later, your wired reflexes 2 will serve you well in firefights. It also helps a lot when someone does spot you and you get to go first and taser him unconscious before he raises an alarm.
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Ravor
post Sep 4 2006, 03:26 AM
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QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
Why?


Call me crazy, but if I don't have to worry about losing Magic, a piece of Cyber that allows me to discreetly remain in contact with my teamates, zero in on a whispered password across a crowded room, tell me exactly where the gunfire came from, ect... is worth a little bit of Essence when it can't easily be taken away and even if its detected is legal.

QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
And if someone is intent on taking away your stuff, they will. Whether it's in your head or not. Anyone can disable your cybereyes, then you're screwed. If you have normal eyes, they take away your goggles and you can still see. I say mister Mundane Eyes wins, especially since he paid less cash and Essence.


True, its possible to rip cyberware out of someone's skull, or to hack/disable it in some other fashion, however both options are harder then removing a piece of external gear, and unless they run you through a Cyberware detector first they might not even notice your ware...

In short, if you are in a place to have your Cybereyes disabled, then you are also in a place to have your mundane eyes gouged out by red hot pokers...


*Edit*

Also, your Cyber is always with you, so if your door is busted down in the middle of the night your vision mods and Smartlink, ect are all ready to rock and roll, where-as someone who had to put on glasses/insert contacts would be left in the dark...
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Gort
post Sep 4 2006, 03:40 AM
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Yeah, but he could put his glasses/contacts on in the extra round he's gained by getting wired reflexes 2 instead of wired reflexes 1. :D

Cyber eyes and ears are all very well, but the small advantage of "well, if you get captured they might not know you can see in the dark" isn't enough to justify the cost on this budget. In most situations you'll be able to prepare appropriately for the coming mission, rather than having to make do with whatever internal organs you happen to have lying around :)
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Cabral
post Sep 4 2006, 04:56 AM
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Also, who says the nightvision contacts aren't 24 hr (or more) contacts?
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Glyph
post Sep 4 2006, 06:55 AM
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Keep in mind, he says that he is tweaking the archetype in the book. His character already has cybereyes with some goodies, reaction enhancer: 2, and a chameleon suit. For 50,000, I would get:

>Muscle Toner: 2 (+2 dice for all Agility-based skills, which this character has a lot of).
>Synthcardium: 3 (+3 dice for all Athletics skills, also nice since this character has the skill group).
>Add Thermal Dampening: 6 to the chameleon suit.
>Add Ultrasound to the glasses that you use with your commlink.
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The Jopp
post Sep 4 2006, 10:28 AM
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I would actually skip ultrasound since there is a good chance facilities might have ultrasound detectors that would react as soon as you use them.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Sep 4 2006, 10:31 AM
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QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
QUOTE
Cyberears are almost a 'must-have for non-Awakened as well...

Why?

Six levels of select sound filter instead of three.
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Ravor
post Sep 4 2006, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE (Gort)
Yeah, but he could put his glasses/contacts on in the extra round he's gained by getting wired reflexes 2 instead of wired reflexes 1.


Only if he could find them in the dark while being shot at, (I can see someone sleeping with a gun under their pillow, but much more then that and I'd remind them of the true story of a little old lady who slept with both a firearm and her inhaler under her pillow.) and I'd really love to see someone trying to stick contacts into their eyes while in the midst of combat without poking their own eyes out. *winks*

QUOTE (Gort)
Cyber eyes and ears are all very well, but the small advantage of "well, if you get captured they might not know you can see in the dark" isn't enough to justify the cost on this budget. In most situations you'll be able to prepare appropriately for the coming mission, rather than having to make do with whatever internal organs you happen to have lying around


*shrugs* I can see the point that you are making, but keep in mind that my comments were mostly aimed at statements by other posters earlier in the thread which came off to me as saying that Cybereyes/ears were never worth it due to the Essence cost. Even if he doesn't get Cybereyes/ears at chargen, in my opinion they are well worth it once his character scrapes together the money at a later date.

However, I'd personally forgotten how badly some of the sample characters were designed until I recently cracked the book open and looked at the Covert Op Spec...

QUOTE (Rant about the Covert Ops Build)
Off the top of my head this is what I'd do to the Covert Op Sample Char...

First he should drop the Close Combat Group and choose one or two skills that he'll actually use, since he has Spurs I'd personally focus on Blades, with Unarmed serving as backup. (He may want to wait until after Char Gen to buy Unarmed if he needs the BPs however.)

Then he should drop the three Stealth Skills he has at (2), (4), and (3) and either buy the Stealth Group at (3) to save 6 BP or buy it at (4) for at a cost of 4 BP.

Personally for non-deckers I've never been a fan of the Electronics Skill Group either, Hardware is a must-have skill for this character, but will he actually get enough usage out of two of the other skills to make it worth the extra BPs? I'd take Hardware at (4) or (5) and buy the other skills seperately if he thinks he'll need them instead of the Eletronics Group at (2).

However, bare in mind that I've never claimed to be a God of character builds, so I'm sure I've missed something and that other people could do better. *winks*



QUOTE (Cabral)
Also, who says the nightvision contacts aren't 24 hr (or more) contacts?


As someone who actually wore contacts in the past I wouldn't allow it, I read the stories of people who say they could go weeks or months between cleaning/changing their contacts today and simply don't believe them. Even though I understand that 2070 contacts would most likely be an improvement over today's I doubt they are somehow the self-cleaning/non-irretating/perfectly breathing/non-slipping wonders that they need to be to in order to even come close to Glasses or Cybereyes for combat usage or comfort of wear.


QUOTE (The Jopp)
I would actually skip ultrasound since there is a good chance facilities might have ultrasound detectors that would react as soon as you use them.


Very good point, although personally I'd think the ability to detect other people's Ultrasound/Motion Detectors while in Passive Mode is a pretty good sale, and that the first time they run into an Invisable Foe they will be worth every penny and more.

Of course, I'm a huge fan of Vision/Hearing Mods in general. *winks*

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lorechaser
post Sep 4 2006, 04:49 PM
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It's a good point that cyber-eyes and ears aren't illegal in anyway. To assume that a corp is going to flag and search everyone that comes in with them is a bit paranoid.

I mean, well off salarimen probably get at least low-light vision (to save the corp money by turning down the lights) and vision magnifiers/enhancements (to save money on microscopes).

As to wearing contacts: I have contacts currently that I can wear for a week with zero maintainence beyond the use of cleaning drops available over the counter. I typically wear them for about a month at a time, to the chagrin of my doctor. I only encounter issues when my allergies are kicking in, and even then, simply removing them for a night gives me another 2 weeks or so.

I don't think a month at a time is unreasonable for 2070.
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FriendoftheDork
post Sep 4 2006, 05:57 PM
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QUOTE (Ravor)
As someone who actually wore contacts in the past I wouldn't allow it, I read the stories of people who say they could go weeks or months between cleaning/changing their contacts today and simply don't believe them. Even though I understand that 2070 contacts would most likely be an improvement over today's I doubt they are somehow the self-cleaning/non-irretating/perfectly breathing/non-slipping wonders that they need to be to in order to even come close to Glasses or Cybereyes for combat usage or comfort of wear.

*winks*

As previously stated, there are lenses worn for months at a time TODAY, even at night and without cleaning. How come it's far fetched that there are self-cleaning ones in 2070 when there exists "smart" clothing???

That said the only reason I could think of not to allow it is the fact that it makes cybereyes that much less appealing, because of cost and essence loss. After all, you don't really think you'll be searched and have your contacts removed, now do you? Thus balance is the only issue for me here.

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lorechaser
post Sep 4 2006, 05:59 PM
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I suspect that the same companies that check all cybereyes for bad stuff would be likely to do a quick retinal scan for contacts as well...
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Cabral
post Sep 4 2006, 07:11 PM
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QUOTE (Ravor @ Sep 4 2006, 11:36 AM)
QUOTE (Cabral)
Also, who says the nightvision contacts aren't 24 hr (or more) contacts?


As someone who actually wore contacts in the past I wouldn't allow it, I read the stories of people who say they could go weeks or months between cleaning/changing their contacts today and simply don't believe them.

Oh I wouldn't allow them to ignore them for weeks, but maybe clean them every twelve hours to allow them to stay in for extened periods of time. The duration they could stay in would then drop drasticly if they didn't keep up with cleaning.

I only suggested it because I remember adds for 24-hr contacts that I believe were restricted to mild prescriptions.
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Glyph
post Sep 4 2006, 10:44 PM
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I agree on the rant about the covert ops specialist - it is a very clumsily-constructed build, including things such as armor that gives the character combat penalties, spurs and a monofilament sword for a character with 2 Strength, and an Ingram Smartgun X for a character who doesn't even have the automatics skill.

The skill advice is pretty dead on - you want to split the close combat skill group. For a low strength character who depends on quick takedowns, I would get Monofilament Whip at 4 and Unarmed Combat at 3 (with a specialization in kempo or boxing - since your main use of it will be to use your shock glove). Then, I would replace the Electronics skill group with Hardware at 4, and use the 4 points you save to change your 3 stealth skills to the Stealth group at 4.

For Attributes, raise Body to 3 and lower Strength to 1. Such a low Strength is not good, but it will be easy to raise up with Karma later, and this will give you a high enough Body to wear your armor without penalties. Alternately, you could lower Charisma to 2, instead, since this build does not really use social skills much, unlike the 3rd Edition version.

For cyberware, lose the spur, and replace it with a shock hand [Alphaware] and a fingertip compartment with a monofilament whip. Essense is unaltered by this change.

For gear, lose the monofilament sword and shock glove, replace the armor jacket with a lined coat, and lose the Ingram Smartgun X (with sound suppressor and 10 clips of ammo). Add a concealable holster and 10 clips of stick-n-shock ammo to the Hammerli 620S.

Unfortunately, this puts the character 1,965 into the red. So... add a disposable printer and a mapsoft of the Seattle area (Rating: 6) to make it an even 2,000. Then, drop Lifestyle to Middle. Yes, this drops your starting Nuyen to 4d6 x 100, but it is better off to start with the gear you need, than with a bit of extra cash. And you can upgrade your Lifestyle later, too.

This leaves 3,000 more for gear, so... upgrade the Jammer to 6 (and make it a directional jammer, so it will be legal - an area jammer should only be able to go up to rating 4 for a starting character), get a rating 6 micro-transceiver, get a rating 4 sequencer, and get an electronics toolkit.
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WhiskeyMac
post Sep 4 2006, 11:30 PM
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I have shitty eyes, really shitty eyes. I am currently wearing monthly contacts that don't require any maintenance beyond eye drops if allergies kick in. I barely notice them and I've been wearing them now for almost 5 weeks straight. Self-cleaning, non-maintenance contacts would be old school in 2070, you'd probably see non-degrading, self cleaning contacts.
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Gort
post Sep 5 2006, 12:43 AM
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I heard those things are a really bad idea. My fiancee was thinking about getting some. (apparently new materials allow them to breathe a bit better so you can keep them in longer)

My opthalmologist said he really wouldn't recommend it, the amount of build up of bacteria underneath them makes them a lot higher risk than ones you clean every day or disposables.

Back on topic, my recommendation would be for NV goggles or glasses anyway. My suggested character concept revolved around a guy who looks like Sam Fisher anyway - the guy's obviously up to no good, but he's very good at stealth so he shouldn't get seen. So the fact that if you do see him you can tell he has night vision isn't really much of a big deal.
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