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Rentiger1
This may be a question already asked, but I cannot find anything about it in the previous threads.

I am making a covert ops character strait from the templet. I am dropping the bland to gain 10 points back and then converting this into cash to buy cyberware to enhance my character.

What would be the best options to buy for a covert ops character with 50,000? I would like to keep the essence down as I may want to add more later. I was thinking bioware, as it cost the least essance.

Please help a semi-newbie
lorechaser
Bioware is cheap in essence, but high in cost. 50k won't get you a heck of a lot.

You could pick up muscle toners, for more agi, or pheromones, for persuasion.

However, I'd pick up a cyber eye rating 3 with all the bells and whistles. Same with a cyber ear. Then I'd get wired reflexes 1.

That'll cost about 2.5 essence, but it's all stuff you need. Why save the essence up for stuff you might need later? You'll only buy the same equipment now....

Thanee
Most standard cyber-/bioware doesn't cost that much. The only 'problem' will be your reflexes, since the only thing you really can afford there is a Wired Reflex 1.

Other than that, get some nifty cyberware eye or ear enhancements, bioware Muscle Augmentation/Toner, and you got the basics covered.

Bye
Thanee
Rentiger1
The template comes with wired reflexes, so I would be adding on that with the 50k
gunsnammo
Actually if you want to save on essence I'd use goggles rather than cybereyes. They can do about as much as cybereyes but is cheaper and costs no essence.

gunsnammo

ShadowDragon
QUOTE (gunsnammo)
Actually if you want to save on essence I'd use goggles rather than cybereyes. They can do about as much as cybereyes but is cheaper and costs no essence.

gunsnammo

But if he wants to fit everything in there he's going to have an availability too high for chargen. You can fit everything but ultrasound into a combo of googles/glasses and contacts, however.
Samaels Ghost
QUOTE (ShadowDragon)
QUOTE (gunsnammo @ Sep 1 2006, 04:12 PM)
Actually if you want to save on essence I'd use goggles rather than cybereyes.  They can do about as much as cybereyes but is cheaper and costs no essence.

gunsnammo

But if he wants to fit everything in there he's going to have an availability too high for chargen. You can fit everything but ultrasound into a combo of googles/glasses and contacts, however.

I second this. You'll regret spending Essence on cybereyes/ears.
kzt
If you are doing a real "covert ops" kind of character wouldn't you want to skip the wired reflexes and use bioware or adept? Wired reflexes are detectable easily and mark you as someone clearly dangerous.
Ravor
Except of course if he uses GEAR as opposed to Cyber he is not only leaving himself open to losing his vision mods when he needs them he is also telling the world that he is using some sort of vision enhancing gear.

Personally I say that Cybereyes are one of the things that almost every character, Awakened or not should have, (Remember that vision mods paid for with Essence can be used to target spells.) Cyberears are almost a 'must-have for non-Awakened as well...
Samaels Ghost
QUOTE
Cyberears are almost a 'must-have for non-Awakened as well...


Why?

And if someone is intent on taking away your stuff, they will. Whether it's in your head or not. Anyone can disable your cybereyes, then you're screwed. If you have normal eyes, they take away your goggles and you can still see. I say mister Mundane Eyes wins, especially since he paid less cash and Essence.
Gort
Yeah, since this is "covert ops on a budget", I'd go for cyberware that can't be replicated with gear, namely wired reflexes 2.

Spend the rest on gear, including some nice night vision goggles and a chameleon suit.

Of course, this guy is obviously up to no good, and as others have mentioned, he will be detected if he tries to walk through a cyberware scanner. So, the solution is to not walk through any (funtioning) cyberware scanners! Get a good perception and intuition so you can spot sensors, and a decent hardware and logic so you can disable them! Sneak past guards instead of trying to bluff your way in.

And if the shit does go down, as it inevitably does sooner or later, your wired reflexes 2 will serve you well in firefights. It also helps a lot when someone does spot you and you get to go first and taser him unconscious before he raises an alarm.
Ravor
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
Why?


Call me crazy, but if I don't have to worry about losing Magic, a piece of Cyber that allows me to discreetly remain in contact with my teamates, zero in on a whispered password across a crowded room, tell me exactly where the gunfire came from, ect... is worth a little bit of Essence when it can't easily be taken away and even if its detected is legal.

QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
And if someone is intent on taking away your stuff, they will. Whether it's in your head or not. Anyone can disable your cybereyes, then you're screwed. If you have normal eyes, they take away your goggles and you can still see. I say mister Mundane Eyes wins, especially since he paid less cash and Essence.


True, its possible to rip cyberware out of someone's skull, or to hack/disable it in some other fashion, however both options are harder then removing a piece of external gear, and unless they run you through a Cyberware detector first they might not even notice your ware...

In short, if you are in a place to have your Cybereyes disabled, then you are also in a place to have your mundane eyes gouged out by red hot pokers...


*Edit*

Also, your Cyber is always with you, so if your door is busted down in the middle of the night your vision mods and Smartlink, ect are all ready to rock and roll, where-as someone who had to put on glasses/insert contacts would be left in the dark...
Gort
Yeah, but he could put his glasses/contacts on in the extra round he's gained by getting wired reflexes 2 instead of wired reflexes 1. biggrin.gif

Cyber eyes and ears are all very well, but the small advantage of "well, if you get captured they might not know you can see in the dark" isn't enough to justify the cost on this budget. In most situations you'll be able to prepare appropriately for the coming mission, rather than having to make do with whatever internal organs you happen to have lying around smile.gif
Cabral
Also, who says the nightvision contacts aren't 24 hr (or more) contacts?
Glyph
Keep in mind, he says that he is tweaking the archetype in the book. His character already has cybereyes with some goodies, reaction enhancer: 2, and a chameleon suit. For 50,000, I would get:

>Muscle Toner: 2 (+2 dice for all Agility-based skills, which this character has a lot of).
>Synthcardium: 3 (+3 dice for all Athletics skills, also nice since this character has the skill group).
>Add Thermal Dampening: 6 to the chameleon suit.
>Add Ultrasound to the glasses that you use with your commlink.
The Jopp
I would actually skip ultrasound since there is a good chance facilities might have ultrasound detectors that would react as soon as you use them.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
QUOTE
Cyberears are almost a 'must-have for non-Awakened as well...

Why?

Six levels of select sound filter instead of three.
Ravor
QUOTE (Gort)
Yeah, but he could put his glasses/contacts on in the extra round he's gained by getting wired reflexes 2 instead of wired reflexes 1.


Only if he could find them in the dark while being shot at, (I can see someone sleeping with a gun under their pillow, but much more then that and I'd remind them of the true story of a little old lady who slept with both a firearm and her inhaler under her pillow.) and I'd really love to see someone trying to stick contacts into their eyes while in the midst of combat without poking their own eyes out. *winks*

QUOTE (Gort)
Cyber eyes and ears are all very well, but the small advantage of "well, if you get captured they might not know you can see in the dark" isn't enough to justify the cost on this budget. In most situations you'll be able to prepare appropriately for the coming mission, rather than having to make do with whatever internal organs you happen to have lying around


*shrugs* I can see the point that you are making, but keep in mind that my comments were mostly aimed at statements by other posters earlier in the thread which came off to me as saying that Cybereyes/ears were never worth it due to the Essence cost. Even if he doesn't get Cybereyes/ears at chargen, in my opinion they are well worth it once his character scrapes together the money at a later date.

However, I'd personally forgotten how badly some of the sample characters were designed until I recently cracked the book open and looked at the Covert Op Spec...

QUOTE (Rant about the Covert Ops Build)
Off the top of my head this is what I'd do to the Covert Op Sample Char...

First he should drop the Close Combat Group and choose one or two skills that he'll actually use, since he has Spurs I'd personally focus on Blades, with Unarmed serving as backup. (He may want to wait until after Char Gen to buy Unarmed if he needs the BPs however.)

Then he should drop the three Stealth Skills he has at (2), (4), and (3) and either buy the Stealth Group at (3) to save 6 BP or buy it at (4) for at a cost of 4 BP.

Personally for non-deckers I've never been a fan of the Electronics Skill Group either, Hardware is a must-have skill for this character, but will he actually get enough usage out of two of the other skills to make it worth the extra BPs? I'd take Hardware at (4) or (5) and buy the other skills seperately if he thinks he'll need them instead of the Eletronics Group at (2).

However, bare in mind that I've never claimed to be a God of character builds, so I'm sure I've missed something and that other people could do better. *winks*



QUOTE (Cabral)
Also, who says the nightvision contacts aren't 24 hr (or more) contacts?


As someone who actually wore contacts in the past I wouldn't allow it, I read the stories of people who say they could go weeks or months between cleaning/changing their contacts today and simply don't believe them. Even though I understand that 2070 contacts would most likely be an improvement over today's I doubt they are somehow the self-cleaning/non-irretating/perfectly breathing/non-slipping wonders that they need to be to in order to even come close to Glasses or Cybereyes for combat usage or comfort of wear.


QUOTE (The Jopp)
I would actually skip ultrasound since there is a good chance facilities might have ultrasound detectors that would react as soon as you use them.


Very good point, although personally I'd think the ability to detect other people's Ultrasound/Motion Detectors while in Passive Mode is a pretty good sale, and that the first time they run into an Invisable Foe they will be worth every penny and more.

Of course, I'm a huge fan of Vision/Hearing Mods in general. *winks*

lorechaser
It's a good point that cyber-eyes and ears aren't illegal in anyway. To assume that a corp is going to flag and search everyone that comes in with them is a bit paranoid.

I mean, well off salarimen probably get at least low-light vision (to save the corp money by turning down the lights) and vision magnifiers/enhancements (to save money on microscopes).

As to wearing contacts: I have contacts currently that I can wear for a week with zero maintainence beyond the use of cleaning drops available over the counter. I typically wear them for about a month at a time, to the chagrin of my doctor. I only encounter issues when my allergies are kicking in, and even then, simply removing them for a night gives me another 2 weeks or so.

I don't think a month at a time is unreasonable for 2070.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Ravor)
As someone who actually wore contacts in the past I wouldn't allow it, I read the stories of people who say they could go weeks or months between cleaning/changing their contacts today and simply don't believe them. Even though I understand that 2070 contacts would most likely be an improvement over today's I doubt they are somehow the self-cleaning/non-irretating/perfectly breathing/non-slipping wonders that they need to be to in order to even come close to Glasses or Cybereyes for combat usage or comfort of wear.

*winks*

As previously stated, there are lenses worn for months at a time TODAY, even at night and without cleaning. How come it's far fetched that there are self-cleaning ones in 2070 when there exists "smart" clothing???

That said the only reason I could think of not to allow it is the fact that it makes cybereyes that much less appealing, because of cost and essence loss. After all, you don't really think you'll be searched and have your contacts removed, now do you? Thus balance is the only issue for me here.

lorechaser
I suspect that the same companies that check all cybereyes for bad stuff would be likely to do a quick retinal scan for contacts as well...
Cabral
QUOTE (Ravor @ Sep 4 2006, 11:36 AM)
QUOTE (Cabral)
Also, who says the nightvision contacts aren't 24 hr (or more) contacts?


As someone who actually wore contacts in the past I wouldn't allow it, I read the stories of people who say they could go weeks or months between cleaning/changing their contacts today and simply don't believe them.

Oh I wouldn't allow them to ignore them for weeks, but maybe clean them every twelve hours to allow them to stay in for extened periods of time. The duration they could stay in would then drop drasticly if they didn't keep up with cleaning.

I only suggested it because I remember adds for 24-hr contacts that I believe were restricted to mild prescriptions.
Glyph
I agree on the rant about the covert ops specialist - it is a very clumsily-constructed build, including things such as armor that gives the character combat penalties, spurs and a monofilament sword for a character with 2 Strength, and an Ingram Smartgun X for a character who doesn't even have the automatics skill.

The skill advice is pretty dead on - you want to split the close combat skill group. For a low strength character who depends on quick takedowns, I would get Monofilament Whip at 4 and Unarmed Combat at 3 (with a specialization in kempo or boxing - since your main use of it will be to use your shock glove). Then, I would replace the Electronics skill group with Hardware at 4, and use the 4 points you save to change your 3 stealth skills to the Stealth group at 4.

For Attributes, raise Body to 3 and lower Strength to 1. Such a low Strength is not good, but it will be easy to raise up with Karma later, and this will give you a high enough Body to wear your armor without penalties. Alternately, you could lower Charisma to 2, instead, since this build does not really use social skills much, unlike the 3rd Edition version.

For cyberware, lose the spur, and replace it with a shock hand [Alphaware] and a fingertip compartment with a monofilament whip. Essense is unaltered by this change.

For gear, lose the monofilament sword and shock glove, replace the armor jacket with a lined coat, and lose the Ingram Smartgun X (with sound suppressor and 10 clips of ammo). Add a concealable holster and 10 clips of stick-n-shock ammo to the Hammerli 620S.

Unfortunately, this puts the character 1,965 into the red. So... add a disposable printer and a mapsoft of the Seattle area (Rating: 6) to make it an even 2,000. Then, drop Lifestyle to Middle. Yes, this drops your starting Nuyen to 4d6 x 100, but it is better off to start with the gear you need, than with a bit of extra cash. And you can upgrade your Lifestyle later, too.

This leaves 3,000 more for gear, so... upgrade the Jammer to 6 (and make it a directional jammer, so it will be legal - an area jammer should only be able to go up to rating 4 for a starting character), get a rating 6 micro-transceiver, get a rating 4 sequencer, and get an electronics toolkit.
WhiskeyMac
I have shitty eyes, really shitty eyes. I am currently wearing monthly contacts that don't require any maintenance beyond eye drops if allergies kick in. I barely notice them and I've been wearing them now for almost 5 weeks straight. Self-cleaning, non-maintenance contacts would be old school in 2070, you'd probably see non-degrading, self cleaning contacts.
Gort
I heard those things are a really bad idea. My fiancee was thinking about getting some. (apparently new materials allow them to breathe a bit better so you can keep them in longer)

My opthalmologist said he really wouldn't recommend it, the amount of build up of bacteria underneath them makes them a lot higher risk than ones you clean every day or disposables.

Back on topic, my recommendation would be for NV goggles or glasses anyway. My suggested character concept revolved around a guy who looks like Sam Fisher anyway - the guy's obviously up to no good, but he's very good at stealth so he shouldn't get seen. So the fact that if you do see him you can tell he has night vision isn't really much of a big deal.
Ravor
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
As previously stated, there are lenses worn for months at a time TODAY, even at night and without cleaning. How come it's far fetched that there are self-cleaning ones in 2070 when there exists "smart" clothing???

That said the only reason I could think of not to allow it is the fact that it makes cybereyes that much less appealing, because of cost and essence loss. After all, you don't really think you'll be searched and have your contacts removed, now do you? Thus balance is the only issue for me here.


As another poster put it, anyone willing to search Cybereyes for naughtiness will do so for Contacts, Glasses, ect, however I tend to be fairly lenent when it comes to moving gear arround in all but the highest security zones. (I figure that your average Joe is too cynical and afraid to turn anyone not actually hassling him in, and your average cop is too busy hassling the wanna-bes and innocents to bother people who look like they might actually shoot back nine times out of ten.)

However, even if we forget the issue of how long you can wear the contacts for, explain to me how they solved the issue of them tending to float away if you try to swim? Or how they solved the issue of them tending to slip rather painfully behind your eyelid if your head gets jolted suddenly? These reasons are why Cybereyes/Glasses are the main choices for Vision Mods in my games, and Contacts are only used if you don't have the Cyber and can't smuggle a pair of thick sunglasses whereever you need to be.

lorechaser
They can be bad, yes. If you leave them in too long, and don't keep them clean, and ignore signs that an infection might be starting.

Again, 15 years ago, when I got my first "extended wear" contacts, you could sleep in them for a single night, and it wasn't recommended.

Now you can go a week with no worries, longer if you want.

Skip ahead 60 years, I have no doubt they'll be self-cleaning and coated with a mild antibiotic.

Edit:

QUOTE

However, even if we forget the issue of how long you can wear the contacts for, explain to me how they solved the issue of them tending to float away if you try to swim? Or how they solved the issue of them tending to slip rather painfully behind your eyelid if your head gets jolted suddenly?


Swimming: You can swim in contacts. I do it often. You can't keep your eyes open constantly, but you also can't really swim in glasses realistically either - you'd need goggles, which would protect your contacts.

Jolts: It's been years since my contacts have done that. And blinking does wonders for adjusting them. I'm not saying contacts wouldn't have problems. I'm saying that a metric ton of people currently wear contacts, and the majority of them do so relatively easily. I don't expect it would get worse in 60 years.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (lorechaser @ Sep 5 2006, 06:00 PM)
Skip ahead 60 years, I have no doubt they'll be self-cleaning and coated with a mild antibiotic.

There is sanitary equipment today that's surface is laced with particles of silver, turning it anti-bac.
Metasigil
They use that stuff at the nursing home where I work. But the first time I heard about silver impregnated cloth was on Entertainment Tonight. Some German company made a whole line of silver impregnated clothing because it doesn't pick up BO, allowing you to party pretty much non-stop for a couple days, longer if you're European. Sounds like it would be popular in the Shadowrun world for a variety of purposes.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Metasigil)
They use that stuff at the nursing home where I work. But the first time I heard about silver impregnated cloth was on Entertainment Tonight. Some German company made a whole line of silver impregnated clothing because it doesn't pick up BO, allowing you to party pretty much non-stop for a couple days, longer if you're European. Sounds like it would be popular in the Shadowrun world for a variety of purposes.

Except that in Shadowrun there is also bioware that can allow you to change the odor of your sweat to anything you want. So who needs clothes that don't absorb the smell when it doesn't smell like anything to begin with. On the other hand the clothes might still be useful for not smelling as much like alcohol and smoke.
Metasigil
Because X-Kalibur a) that costs money, b) that costs essence, c) it's not sweat that smells bad, it's the waste from bacteria feeding on the oils in your sweat and d) sometimes it's nice/ sexy to get all sweaty and musky. nyahnyah.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Metasigil)
b) that costs essence

Not anymore... cosmetic modifications are free.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Ravor)
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
As previously stated, there are lenses worn for months at a time TODAY, even at night and without cleaning. How come it's far fetched that there are self-cleaning ones in 2070 when there exists "smart" clothing???

That said the only reason I could think of not to allow it is the fact that it makes cybereyes that much less appealing, because of cost and essence loss. After all, you don't really think you'll be searched and have your contacts removed, now do you? Thus balance is the only issue for me here.


As another poster put it, anyone willing to search Cybereyes for naughtiness will do so for Contacts, Glasses, ect, however I tend to be fairly lenent when it comes to moving gear arround in all but the highest security zones. (I figure that your average Joe is too cynical and afraid to turn anyone not actually hassling him in, and your average cop is too busy hassling the wanna-bes and innocents to bother people who look like they might actually shoot back nine times out of ten.)

However, even if we forget the issue of how long you can wear the contacts for, explain to me how they solved the issue of them tending to float away if you try to swim? Or how they solved the issue of them tending to slip rather painfully behind your eyelid if your head gets jolted suddenly? These reasons are why Cybereyes/Glasses are the main choices for Vision Mods in my games, and Contacts are only used if you don't have the Cyber and can't smuggle a pair of thick sunglasses whereever you need to be.

Yeah, but very few searches for cybereyes OR contacts. They might not even bother to take off glasses either. But that depends on the security level and situation. But unless you are taken prisoner by a corp, scanned for cyberware and ass-probed, you'll most likely keep your contacts.

Their main quality is that they're practically invisible, more so in 2070 as they can change coloring and even copy the natural coloring of your eyes.

So basically, cybereye have SOME advantages but not enough to justify it's costs IMO. Vision enhancers are too cheap which means it turns from being the choise of magical characters and mundane ones not wanting cyberware, to being the best choise for a street samurai. Heck, it was the best choise for mine.

Swimming... as said there are goggles that will keep your contacts from floating away, and I believe 2070 contacts are less likely to fall out without willing it (it probably can be set to fall out through their wireless link). But swimming is rare, and my character is incompetent anyway with severe seawater allergy anyway yeah, in seatle).
2bit
QUOTE (X-Kalibur)
QUOTE (Metasigil @ Sep 5 2006, 11:43 AM)
They use that stuff at the nursing home where I work.  But the first time I heard about silver impregnated cloth was on Entertainment Tonight.  Some German company made a whole line of silver impregnated clothing because it doesn't pick up BO, allowing you to party pretty much non-stop for a couple days, longer if you're European.  Sounds like it would be popular in the Shadowrun world for a variety of purposes.

Except that in Shadowrun there is also bioware that can allow you to change the odor of your sweat to anything you want. So who needs clothes that don't absorb the smell when it doesn't smell like anything to begin with. On the other hand the clothes might still be useful for not smelling as much like alcohol and smoke.

omg, can my shit smell like roses?!
Metasigil
Nah, they tried that but it didn't work to well. Turns out, no matter how much rose oil the biotech gland in you asre squirts out, it just smelled like shit and roses. biggrin.gif
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