 Spirit Pacts |
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 Sep 3 2006, 08:13 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 6-September 02 Member No.: 3,234  |
So far, I've seen very little discussion about one of the most radical novelties of Street Magic, namely the possibility for all vanilla Awakened characters (not just toxics or Twisted ones, even if you can have the latter, too, as PC option, now) to enter Spirit Pacts. So let's talk about it. Would you allow/buy the quality at character creation ? What kind of pact would you use, from the sample listed ? Would you allow a character to have multiple pacts with the same spirit (a combination that I see as especially enticing would be Formula Pact and Life Pact, maybe coupled with Dream Pact), and in that case would the player have to buy the Quality multiple times ? I have difficulty understanding the sense of tying the price of the Spirit Pact to the spirit's Edge. The latter plays a role in the Drain Pact's effectiveness, but in no other pact. Maybe because a spirit with low Edge is easier to banish ? By the way, what would happen to the pact while the spirit is temporarily banished or disrupted ? Is it suspended ?
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Sep 3 2006, 08:26 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
I believe the Pact stays in effect until the Spirit or Mage dies/is permanently banished.
A low edge spirit is likely easier to nix. however, I would've preferred variable costs based on the pact itself. I particularly like the Life Pact and have thought about making a character with that pact. |
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Sep 3 2006, 09:53 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 6-September 02 Member No.: 3,234 |
Just like I would like to do with an Awakened character having both the Formula Pact (Leonization ? who needs Leonization ? Finally a mystical option for immortality that does not involve being the antedeluvian elf scion of dragons) and the Life Pact, even if the Dream Pact is cool, too, in concept, but I fail to see what the real benefit to the charcter is. However, would the Quality have to be bought twice for a double pact ? Is it per pact, per spirit, or once-over ? Apparently the rules allow for having more than one (a couple, at least) pact with the same spirit, or multiple pacts with several spirits, but they do not clarify the issue. |
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Sep 3 2006, 07:07 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
The spirit pact allows you to have a pact with a spirit. You'd have to take it twice (and likely with different spirits; see the section on spirit pacts) in order to have two spirit pacts.
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Sep 3 2006, 07:37 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 6-September 02 Member No.: 3,234 |
Judging from the relevant information in Street magic, I'd say that in many cases it should be possible to get at least two spirit pacts from the same spirit. |
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Sep 3 2006, 07:43 PM
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#6
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
Is it me, or do most of the pacts seem to benefit the spirit more?
And do you ever plan to have any of your characters make a Hidden Life pact? :D |
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Sep 3 2006, 08:03 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
If it can offer only one or two varieties, then you can only enter into one or two spirit pacts with the spirit. Therefore, if your GM says sorry, that one edge spirit only has one spirit pact available, you'll have to buy the quality with two spirits. Which may impact your character if you were planning on taking the spirit as a contact and feeding it karma. :D |
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Sep 4 2006, 11:27 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 6-September 02 Member No.: 3,234 |
Fair price. If Focused Concentration is handed down at 10pts/lvl, I can surely acknowledge two 1-edge spirit pacts at 10 as a rather good bargain, even taking into account periodic karma requests from both spirits. Plus, some pacts (such as Dream and Life) do tend to take care of the karma issue on their own. I'd rather make some additional legwork and do research until I can dig up 1-edge free spirits that can offer the kind of pacts I want, singularly or in combination, rather than bothering with high-edge spirits. Unless the latter would be in the position to offer say four different spirit pacts or so. Sometimes it's not min-maxing, it's common sense ;) As I said, I see both Formula and Life pacts as something that would be of interest to many Awakened characters. Immortality is a huge IC benefit, which a character cannot find elsewhere unless by leonization, which is likely rather bad to essence. Likewise, the Life pact is a very good ersatz-regeneration last-ditch lifesaver, even if an ally spirit or bound spirit of man with the right healing spells and standing orders might substantially duplicate. The Dream pact I see as potentially rich in RP flavour, but I fail to see the significant IC character benefit why a PC should bother, unless it's asked by the spirit in combination with another pact. Its advantages seem to be all for the spirit. Likewise for the Magic Pact (magic boost once a day, and you can siphon all my Edge whenever you like ? No thanks, I think I'll go enchanting a power focus or summon an ally spirit instead...). If someone can explain me a decent reason why an Awakened character would bother to have them... The Power Pact isn't something that I see most characters to bother bargaining for in the long term, since almost all powers you can as easily obtain from summoned or bound spirits, but it might be an useful tool to bargain for once in a while in provision of a dangerous or difficult run (e.g. regeneration) or something that a character cannot do on its own (e.g. I can see many mystical adepts striking "freelance" pacts for Astral Gateway, summoning the free spirit and handing him a nice chunk of karma for 24-hour access to metaplanar quests). Drain Pact: well, if you fall for this, you deserve to be fleeced of all your karma, you drain fiend. It's the addict's way. Go bind a power focus or an ally spirit, ypou lazy bum. |
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Sep 4 2006, 01:23 PM
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#9
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, sounds like a nice way to recreate constantine :P
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Sep 4 2006, 02:46 PM
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#10
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The dream pact is absolutly the best pact there is. Why? Stun damage.Picture it: A scrawny STR1 BOD1 elf kid walks brazenly through Spikes territory and demands to see Lord Torgo, claiming to have information about a planned attack by the Ancients. Seeing no harm in it (after all the kid is known to be both a whimp and a mundane and he's unarmed) a couple of thugs take him to see their leader. Instead of giving information, however, he proceeds to insult Lord Torgo's mother. It only takes a single punch to knock the kid unconscious.
...But wait, just as Torgo is about to bring his boot down on the hapless kid's skull something happens. His eyes open and flare with fire. His body levitates into an upright position and the Free Blood-Fire spirit possessing him proceeds to engulf all present in chocking crimson flames. Lord Torgo gets off better than most, surviving the immolation, but he merely ends up lending his essence to the double-digit force spirit. Or, even better, you'r BOD 15 Armor 20 troll takes a few point blant assualt cannon hits, which fill up hi stun moniter. Suddenly, instead of an unconscious troll, he is a conscious Free Spirit. The police decide to use knock-out gas on you so that the hostages won't be harmed? They'll wish that they hadn't. Sure, the GM can interperate it so that a full stun track does not count as sleep; but not every GM will do so. Even if the GM does make this rulling, there is another advantage. The Dream Pact basicly gives the character voudoo style summoner-possession that can be activated at will without drain. All the character has to do is close his eyes. The spirit is in control but sometimes that is a good thing. The the possessed voudoo killing machine was a viable concept in SR3 for a reason. The GM isn't going to make your spirit be be stupid (if he does you should shoot him) and the power of the spirit can turn a no-win scenario into a total victory. The only cost is earned karma, which is certainly a better cost than burning a point of edge just to survive. Even if the GM interperates it so that the character can't instantly fall asleep (an interpertation which goes against the lpact's description) the character chould always get a sleep regulator and still enjoy instant activation. |
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Sep 4 2006, 03:21 PM
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#11
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Especially if you enter it with your former ally you treated well and finally set free willingly: Both of you know each other well, how to work together and might even share a similar personality. Combined with the formula and life pact, this is a very good reason to invest in an ally spirit. |
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Sep 4 2006, 03:22 PM
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#12
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The spirit may take over your body, but unless it has a higher Willpower than you, it will be just as incapacitated. But it's nice to have the extra Body when you're unconcious.
-Frank |
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Sep 4 2006, 04:29 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 684 Joined: 8-April 06 From: My dorm room Member No.: 8,438 |
I would like to have the dream pact, if only so that I could get more done around the house. Of course, that's assuming the spirit really likes to do chores.
Then again, I might have to worry about waking up covered with someone else's blood and not knowing how it got there. That would be disconcerting, to say the least. :| |
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Sep 4 2006, 04:34 PM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
obviously, you should get yourself some cybereyes and record constantly =P in fact, maybe even hardwire it to be impossible to turn them off ;) |
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Sep 4 2006, 04:40 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 684 Joined: 8-April 06 From: My dorm room Member No.: 8,438 |
But then I'd have to have my real eyes scooped out! And I like my real eyes! They're pretty!
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Sep 4 2006, 04:52 PM
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#16
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
You don't need to have your real eyes scooped out. You'd just need to find a nice place to put the extras. I'm sort of fond of the thrid eye on the forehead, myself, it is a classic. We do need a clarification on the rules for damage. I was aware of the fact that the vessel's wound penalities apply and that physical damage effects both, but I don't believe that the damage taken by one before the possession applies to the spirit during the possession other than for the purpose of calculating penalities. Things also get kind of wierd when considering dead vessels. Obviously, the vessel having a full physical track and full overflow doesn't hamper the spirit in any way whle just having a partially full track does. |
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Sep 4 2006, 05:29 PM
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#17
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Once the creature dies, it's not a living vessel anymore. It's considered a whole new object, so if you wanted to have it be a prepared vessel you'd need to start all over again. It's just like ripping a homunculus apart - you've got a pile of plastisteel left over so there's nothing stopping you from putting it back together and making a new homunculus - but the original vessel is "dead" and can't be possessed anymore. So once your body dies, your dream pact is over, and the spirit can't possess your body at all. There is a pile of meat and bones there, so an enterprising magician could prepare it as a new "undamaged" dead vessel - but all the old work is lost. If you take a house apart brick by brick - the house is destroyed. But you do have a pile of bricks and you could totally make a new house if you wanted. -Frank |
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Sep 4 2006, 05:36 PM
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#18
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hell, number each brick and you may well be able to put the same house back together :P
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Sep 4 2006, 06:06 PM
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#19
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Actually, I was thinking of the spirit possessing the 'dead vessel" without any preperation soon after death, the only difference being a few pints of bood and a soul. Howveer, I just noticed that that would be impossible since a spirit must tough the aura of the obvect and the dead don't have auras.
Of course, there Since shedim can possess unprepared dead vessels or abandoned living vessels this odd situation can present itself. Will a shedim who possesses a severly injured character's living body will suffer severe wound penalties due to the wounds. If so, when the zombie hunters blow his head off and the vessel dies, will spirit will stop suffering those penalties? And, if the Shedim doesn't suffer the living abandoned vessel's wound penalities then what happens if you make a dream pact with a shedim? |
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Sep 4 2006, 06:14 PM
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#20
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Any possession spirit can possess a dead body just like they can possess an unprepared toaster or ny other inanimate thing. Once it's dead, it has an object resistance. Now, the OR of a dead human is pretty low (similar to that of a tree or a rock), but the mechanics are the same as for possessing a combat drone or a refridgerator.
It's kind of difficult, but the potential is there. -Frank |
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Sep 4 2006, 06:49 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
Just make a pact with a free task spirit. |
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Sep 4 2006, 07:18 PM
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#22
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
I'm pretty sure I'm going to have a character make a Spirit Pact... with a Free Mantis Spirit.
Assuming I don't just pick Hidden Life, which is FTW. |
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Sep 4 2006, 07:39 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Hidden Life is hugely nerfed from SR3. Sure, they absolutely had to take away attribute boosts given the changed mechanics, but Regeneration itself was already substantially weakened, so why lose that? But the really incomprehensible change is the dissappearance of Immunity to Pathogens/Toxins. If I'm a spirit hiding my life force in something living, I'm much more worried about it getting a virus than I am about it being shot or wacked with a sword. I'd add that back at the least.
For the rest, I'm glad vampirism, with all of its costs and penalities, is now actually a better path to immortality and badassedness than Hidden Life. |
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Sep 4 2006, 07:50 PM
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#24
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
True, but vampirism would be the epitome of cliche for the character.
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Sep 4 2006, 07:53 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 6-September 02 Member No.: 3,234 |
Enlightening and informative post. I recant my previous doubts about the Dream Pact and now acknowledge it as quite useful to have, alongside and/or combination with the Formula and Life Pacts. Finding a trusted free spirit that would grant all three would indeed be a very good karma investment from an Awakened character, on the level of getting an Ally or a Mentor. What about the Magic Pact ? Do you see any reasons why this Pact should be preferred to other means of boosting one's Magic ? |
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