 Cyberware, Bioware and Essence Loss. Oh My!, Something I missed |
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 Sep 3 2006, 10:17 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646  |
I just noticed that Bioware and cyberware essence loss isn't added together...only half the essence loss of the cheaper of the two +plus the more expensive.
So 4 pts of cyberware plus 1 pt of bioware is only 4.5 essence loss. Did anyone else miss that? Edit: Woot! I'm a moving target now ... |
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Sep 3 2006, 10:27 PM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
i've known that all along.
but that's not to say that i always remember it when i'm making a character =D certainly, it's one of those big, new changes that can make a huge difference in how your character works out ;) |
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Sep 3 2006, 11:12 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,415 |
It also puts a new element in place for those "wired reflexes 3 is rubbish!" arguments. If wired 3 is your only piece of cyber, and you get it at a high enough quality level, you get quite a reduction on its essence cost.
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Sep 4 2006, 12:07 AM
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#4
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
no, because you would need 10.1 or more points of bioware to cut the cost of wired 3 in half. wired 3 will certainly make your bioware (if any) cheaper of course, but generally speaking you are better off keeping your cyberware to stuff that can't be duplicated using bioware (which is generally better). so, stuff like internal commlinks, datajacks, skillwires, control rigs, etc are good choices for cyber, in terms of essence, because you cannot get a version of those cheaper in essence by picking up some bioware. of course, if you're looking at saving money, that changes things =P |
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Sep 4 2006, 02:59 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,415 |
Nope. See where I said "high enough quality level"? That means you can get the essence cost of wired 3 down to 2.5 - and it's very easy to find 2.6 points worth of worthwhile bioware. Of course, you have to be able to afford deltaware wired reflexes 3, which puts this in the cyberzombie kind of price range, but with the rules not yet supporting cyberzombies, this is a decent choice for the corporate supersoldier. |
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Sep 4 2006, 03:06 AM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
With the current rules you can also do deltaware synapic booster 3 for a mere 2.4 million and .75 essence. Page 303.
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Sep 4 2006, 03:13 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,415 |
So, the comparison is then 1 million for 1.25 essence, (wired reflexes 3) or 2.4 million for 0.75 (synaptic booster)
1.4 million to save 0.5 essence is a big price tag... but if we're talking money no object that's no big deal. However, the main problem with taking mostly cyber to get your bioware reflexes for less essence is that top-level bioware is generally a lot better than top-level cyber. I'll take muscle toner over muscle replacement any day. So I reckon you're still better off with delta wired reflexes 3 and a huge stack of bioware. Assuming no price limits of course :) (hell of an assumption...) |
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Sep 4 2006, 04:20 AM
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#8
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
No. The comparison is between Delta Wired 3 and alpha Synaptic Booster 3. Let's say that you alreeady have 2.6 Essence worth of Bioware, so any Cyberware you pick up is going to have its Essence cost halved, and any Bioware you pick up is coming in for full price. Now, for 1 million yen you can pick up Wired 3 Delta and pay just 1.25 EEssence for it. That's not bad. But for 480,000 yen - less than half of what the Wired costs - you can have Alpha Boosted 3 and pay only 1.2 Essence. And then you'll have 3.8 Essence of Bioware and zero Essence of Cyberware, so you can pick up actually useful pieces of cybernetics such as Cybereyes and Control Rigs and such for half price, and you'll save .05 Essence, and you'll save 520,000 nuyen. Wired 3 isn't good. It's not even almost good. It's simply terrible in all circumstances worth mentioning. The augmentations got put on a different cost scale in SR4 and Wired Reflexes didn't get the memo and now it's terrible. Even in the best possible case (where you had already gone ape with Bioware), Wired 3 cannot stand up to the Synaptic Booster. Not in Essence, not in money, not in anything. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes an option is just crap. -Frank |
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Sep 4 2006, 04:48 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
Assuming the bring cyber/bioware grades into the same levels as SR3, there won't be alpha. beta or delta bioware. Instead, some pieces of bioware can be purchased in the cultured variety. As synaptic boosters are already cultured, they would be as Essence friendly as they're gonna get whereas you could still sink more cash into wired reflexes to get the essence cost below synaptic bossters.
That's assuming they go that route. If not, who knows. :) |
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Sep 4 2006, 06:05 AM
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#10
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Not sure what you are saying, as this is the SR4 forum. In SR4, per page 303, this is how it works for both bioware AND cyberware. |
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Sep 4 2006, 06:11 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
Yes, however, somethings erroneously did not get carried over from SR3 (case in point: magically healing physical drain).
Assuming that this is also the case with bioware, then the table on page 303 should only apply to cyberware. Bioware would then only be available in vanilla and cultured (x.75 essence and x4 cost), which is not available for those pieces already cultured. Again, this assumes that this is another SR3-SR4 "oops", however, it seems unlikely that it was accidentally dropped. |
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Sep 4 2006, 06:27 AM
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#12
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
The section of the rules headed CYBERWARE AND BIOWARE GRADES whose text starts with "Cyberware and bioware is available in four grades: standard, alphaware, betaware, and deltaware." to me suggests it isn't a typo in the table. As they also explicity mention cultured bioware in the this paragraph how would you determine that they didn't mean what they say here? |
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Sep 4 2006, 10:03 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
Like I said, it's unlikely that it's unintentional. I'm just not barring that possibility. As you say, it's pretty overt. However, note that the paragraph mentions cultured bioware as an exception to standard bioware. It then goes on to mention other grades (alpha, beta, delta), but not cultured.
Now, maybe it's just because I'm coming from SR3 (well, SR1 actually), but that strikes me as a placeholder we-don't-know-how-we'll-handle-bioware-grades-yet paragraph. Even if it's not, it also presents the possibility that while standard bioware can be purchased at aplha, beta, or delta levels, cultured ware cannot. Until I hear otherwise, I'll run bioware and cyberware available in all 4 grades (standard through delta) and if Augmentation does not introduce bioware grades, then I'll consider it certain proof of FanPro's intent. |
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Sep 4 2006, 10:29 AM
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#14
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Rob was pretty clear that it applies to any kind of implant.
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Sep 4 2006, 02:09 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,415 |
Heh, so it is. Oh well, I'll still be seeing wired reflexes 2 on every starting samurai forever... |
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Sep 4 2006, 08:08 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
The biggest bioware confusion isn't whether you can get it in delta but why culture bioware made an appearance in SR4 at all. If it has no game effects why introduce a now mechanically pointless term that had important bio index effects in SR3?
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Sep 4 2006, 08:20 PM
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#17
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
It's like the artificial seperation between headware and bodyware.
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Sep 4 2006, 09:01 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Well, that made sense as a way to break it up for organizational/readability purposes rather than just have one massive unbroken list of cyberware. But given SR3 baggage, using the term "cultured" for bioware is a little different. But you're probably right that that's why they did it.
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Sep 5 2006, 05:05 AM
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#19
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
there is a difference.
standard grade normal bioware is generic. standard grade cultured bioware is specific to a person. thus, you have to go in, go through some sort of screening process, and wait for them to grow standard grade cultured. standard grade normal you just go in, point out what you want, get some surgery, and you're done (apparently). not really a huge difference, i suppose, but still a difference. |
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Sep 5 2006, 06:05 AM
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#20
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
It's a big difference to the used bioware market I should think. Used Cultured Bioware shouldn't have any resale value to speak of.
-Frank |
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Sep 5 2006, 06:37 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
I imagine some of those prices figure in implantation too, so that's more nuyen off of what you're selling. So stuff that is mostly nano contructed like I imagine Wired systems are would be pretty useless in resale. So there's some cyber too that can't be resold for the prupose of getting it implanted. You still need to pay for DNI connections and whatnot. I wish there were some guidelines for selling used ware. It tends to come up a lot in our games. And not when talking about selling OUR old ware.
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Sep 5 2006, 12:46 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 168 Joined: 6-August 06 Member No.: 9,033 |
Been there done that. Thats what so great about a flamethrower. Burn flesh but leave the nice vauable metal peices for salvage. All in a days work for a shadowrunner. |
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Sep 5 2006, 01:15 PM
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#23
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
As long as the precious cyber isn’t made of material that is made of non-metallic composites or other superconducting material and plastics… :D Remember, just because it is chrome doesn’t mean it’s made of metal. Best thing to use would be something that dissolve flesh but leave non-organic material alone. |
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Sep 5 2006, 03:11 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Or a knife
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Sep 5 2006, 03:41 PM
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#25
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I'm not sure even that's a god idea. Even a '64 Chevy has a lot of integral organics in it - from rubber hoses to structural plastic. I'm unconvinced that something which selectively ate away organic material would be capable of extracting an implanted simrig in working order. -Frank |
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