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Full Version: Cyberware, Bioware and Essence Loss. Oh My!
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Cabral
I just noticed that Bioware and cyberware essence loss isn't added together...only half the essence loss of the cheaper of the two +plus the more expensive.

So 4 pts of cyberware plus 1 pt of bioware is only 4.5 essence loss.

Did anyone else miss that?

Edit: Woot! I'm a moving target now ...
Jaid
i've known that all along.

but that's not to say that i always remember it when i'm making a character =D

certainly, it's one of those big, new changes that can make a huge difference in how your character works out wink.gif
Gort
It also puts a new element in place for those "wired reflexes 3 is rubbish!" arguments. If wired 3 is your only piece of cyber, and you get it at a high enough quality level, you get quite a reduction on its essence cost.
Jaid
QUOTE (Gort)
It also puts a new element in place for those "wired reflexes 3 is rubbish!" arguments. If wired 3 is your only piece of cyber, and you get it at a high enough quality level, you get quite a reduction on its essence cost.

no, because you would need 10.1 or more points of bioware to cut the cost of wired 3 in half.

wired 3 will certainly make your bioware (if any) cheaper of course, but generally speaking you are better off keeping your cyberware to stuff that can't be duplicated using bioware (which is generally better). so, stuff like internal commlinks, datajacks, skillwires, control rigs, etc are good choices for cyber, in terms of essence, because you cannot get a version of those cheaper in essence by picking up some bioware.

of course, if you're looking at saving money, that changes things =P
Gort
QUOTE (Jaid)
no, because you would need 10.1 or more points of bioware to cut the cost of wired 3 in half.

Nope. See where I said "high enough quality level"? That means you can get the essence cost of wired 3 down to 2.5 - and it's very easy to find 2.6 points worth of worthwhile bioware.

Of course, you have to be able to afford deltaware wired reflexes 3, which puts this in the cyberzombie kind of price range, but with the rules not yet supporting cyberzombies, this is a decent choice for the corporate supersoldier.
kzt
With the current rules you can also do deltaware synapic booster 3 for a mere 2.4 million and .75 essence. Page 303.
Gort
So, the comparison is then 1 million for 1.25 essence, (wired reflexes 3) or 2.4 million for 0.75 (synaptic booster)

1.4 million to save 0.5 essence is a big price tag... but if we're talking money no object that's no big deal.

However, the main problem with taking mostly cyber to get your bioware reflexes for less essence is that top-level bioware is generally a lot better than top-level cyber. I'll take muscle toner over muscle replacement any day.

So I reckon you're still better off with delta wired reflexes 3 and a huge stack of bioware. Assuming no price limits of course smile.gif

(hell of an assumption...)
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
So, the comparison is then 1 million for 1.25 essence, (wired reflexes 3) or 2.4 million for 0.75 (synaptic booster)


No. The comparison is between Delta Wired 3 and alpha Synaptic Booster 3.

Let's say that you alreeady have 2.6 Essence worth of Bioware, so any Cyberware you pick up is going to have its Essence cost halved, and any Bioware you pick up is coming in for full price. Now, for 1 million yen you can pick up Wired 3 Delta and pay just 1.25 EEssence for it. That's not bad. But for 480,000 yen - less than half of what the Wired costs - you can have Alpha Boosted 3 and pay only 1.2 Essence.

And then you'll have 3.8 Essence of Bioware and zero Essence of Cyberware, so you can pick up actually useful pieces of cybernetics such as Cybereyes and Control Rigs and such for half price, and you'll save .05 Essence, and you'll save 520,000 nuyen.

Wired 3 isn't good. It's not even almost good. It's simply terrible in all circumstances worth mentioning. The augmentations got put on a different cost scale in SR4 and Wired Reflexes didn't get the memo and now it's terrible.

Even in the best possible case (where you had already gone ape with Bioware), Wired 3 cannot stand up to the Synaptic Booster. Not in Essence, not in money, not in anything. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes an option is just crap.

-Frank
Cabral
Assuming the bring cyber/bioware grades into the same levels as SR3, there won't be alpha. beta or delta bioware. Instead, some pieces of bioware can be purchased in the cultured variety. As synaptic boosters are already cultured, they would be as Essence friendly as they're gonna get whereas you could still sink more cash into wired reflexes to get the essence cost below synaptic bossters.

That's assuming they go that route. If not, who knows. smile.gif
kzt
QUOTE (Cabral)
Assuming the bring cyber/bioware grades into the same levels as SR3, there won't be alpha. beta or delta bioware.

Not sure what you are saying, as this is the SR4 forum. In SR4, per page 303, this is how it works for both bioware AND cyberware.
Cabral
Yes, however, somethings erroneously did not get carried over from SR3 (case in point: magically healing physical drain).

Assuming that this is also the case with bioware, then the table on page 303 should only apply to cyberware. Bioware would then only be available in vanilla and cultured (x.75 essence and x4 cost), which is not available for those pieces already cultured.

Again, this assumes that this is another SR3-SR4 "oops", however, it seems unlikely that it was accidentally dropped.
kzt
QUOTE (Cabral)
Yes, however, somethings erroneously did not get carried over from SR3 (case in point: magically healing physical drain).

Assuming that this is also the case with bioware, then the table on page 303 should only apply to cyberware. Bioware would then only be available in vanilla and cultured (x.75 essence and x4 cost), which is not available for those pieces already cultured.

Again, this assumes that this is another SR3-SR4 "oops", however, it seems unlikely that it was accidentally dropped.

The section of the rules headed CYBERWARE AND BIOWARE GRADES whose text starts with
"Cyberware and bioware is available in four grades: standard,
alphaware, betaware, and deltaware."

to me suggests it isn't a typo in the table. As they also explicity mention cultured bioware in the this paragraph how would you determine that they didn't mean what they say here?
Cabral
Like I said, it's unlikely that it's unintentional. I'm just not barring that possibility. As you say, it's pretty overt. However, note that the paragraph mentions cultured bioware as an exception to standard bioware. It then goes on to mention other grades (alpha, beta, delta), but not cultured.

Now, maybe it's just because I'm coming from SR3 (well, SR1 actually), but that strikes me as a placeholder we-don't-know-how-we'll-handle-bioware-grades-yet paragraph. Even if it's not, it also presents the possibility that while standard bioware can be purchased at aplha, beta, or delta levels, cultured ware cannot.

Until I hear otherwise, I'll run bioware and cyberware available in all 4 grades (standard through delta) and if Augmentation does not introduce bioware grades, then I'll consider it certain proof of FanPro's intent.
Rotbart van Dainig
Rob was pretty clear that it applies to any kind of implant.
Gort
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Sep 3 2006, 11:20 PM)
No. The comparison is between Delta Wired 3 and alpha Synaptic Booster 3.

Heh, so it is. Oh well, I'll still be seeing wired reflexes 2 on every starting samurai forever...
Slithery D
The biggest bioware confusion isn't whether you can get it in delta but why culture bioware made an appearance in SR4 at all. If it has no game effects why introduce a now mechanically pointless term that had important bio index effects in SR3?
Rotbart van Dainig
It's like the artificial seperation between headware and bodyware.
Slithery D
Well, that made sense as a way to break it up for organizational/readability purposes rather than just have one massive unbroken list of cyberware. But given SR3 baggage, using the term "cultured" for bioware is a little different. But you're probably right that that's why they did it.
Jaid
there is a difference.

standard grade normal bioware is generic.

standard grade cultured bioware is specific to a person.

thus, you have to go in, go through some sort of screening process, and wait for them to grow standard grade cultured. standard grade normal you just go in, point out what you want, get some surgery, and you're done (apparently).

not really a huge difference, i suppose, but still a difference.
FrankTrollman
It's a big difference to the used bioware market I should think. Used Cultured Bioware shouldn't have any resale value to speak of.

-Frank
Samaels Ghost
I imagine some of those prices figure in implantation too, so that's more nuyen off of what you're selling. So stuff that is mostly nano contructed like I imagine Wired systems are would be pretty useless in resale. So there's some cyber too that can't be resold for the prupose of getting it implanted. You still need to pay for DNI connections and whatnot. I wish there were some guidelines for selling used ware. It tends to come up a lot in our games. And not when talking about selling OUR old ware.
venenum
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
I imagine some of those prices figure in implantation too, so that's more nuyen off of what you're selling. So stuff that is mostly nano contructed like I imagine Wired systems are would be pretty useless in resale. So there's some cyber too that can't be resold for the prupose of getting it implanted. You still need to pay for DNI connections and whatnot. I wish there were some guidelines for selling used ware. It tends to come up a lot in our games. And not when talking about selling OUR old ware.

Been there done that. Thats what so great about a flamethrower. Burn flesh but leave the nice vauable metal peices for salvage. All in a days work for a shadowrunner.
The Jopp
QUOTE (venenum)

Been there done that. Thats what so great about a flamethrower. Burn flesh but leave the nice vauable metal peices for salvage. All in a days work for a shadowrunner.

As long as the precious cyber isn’t made of material that is made of non-metallic composites or other superconducting material and plastics… biggrin.gif

Remember, just because it is chrome doesn’t mean it’s made of metal. Best thing to use would be something that dissolve flesh but leave non-organic material alone.
Samaels Ghost
Or a knife
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
Remember, just because it is chrome doesn’t mean it’s made of metal. Best thing to use would be something that dissolve flesh but leave non-organic material alone.


I'm not sure even that's a god idea. Even a '64 Chevy has a lot of integral organics in it - from rubber hoses to structural plastic. I'm unconvinced that something which selectively ate away organic material would be capable of extracting an implanted simrig in working order.

-Frank
lorechaser
Used Bioware is the key to Cultured, I think.

You can't get used, cultured, Bioware. The concept doesn't exist.

But they can pluck out someone's Cat Eyes after death, and pass the savings on to you!
Mistwalker
Not really sure if you can even get used bioware.
Not unless you have access to somekind of organ storage facility. Even then, it had better be fast access.

Organ donation, today, only happens if you die in hospital
jervinator
Organ donation in 2070 happens when someone stronger and nastier than you wants it to wink.gif
hyzmarca
Of course you can get used cultured bioware. You just have to get if from your evil good twin.

Teulisch
mechanicaly... sure synaptic is better. but its expensive. you cant afford synaptic AND much else.... so anyone on a budget who wants to be effective will get wired.

I dont think the issue is really worth worrying about too much. just run it as is until the augmentation book comes out- do you really expect any runner to be able to AFFORD that kind of expensive ware before then? and even if a campaing is long enough, most the money is going into numerous small advances (like muscle toner 4 for the agility cap) rather than being saved for one large expenditure... most players dont want to wait a long time for their upgrades. The way players think, your more likely to see a mage spend his excess cash on high-end bioware for under an essence point. A lot of these arguments leave out the way players and GMs actualy play the game.

as for organ donors... Those nasty people can easily get skilwires and BE doctors! with that kind of profit, a few thugs in a modified ambulance can do some very bad things to people. especialy if their hacker can crack medical records and find home adresses.
Mistwalker
I am talking about your normal opponents that you have killed, and are disappearing their bodies

Part of the problems that I see with salvaging used bioware are:


1) It starts to degrade as soon as the body dies. That is why organ donation at the hospital usually has the "donor" on ventilators and such, after brain death.

2) How do you know which parts are valuable bioware and which are normal organs? . Unless you it is premeditated, and you know have hacked their medical records, etc.... Or work part time for DocWagon and salvage the parts from dead clients....

3) Even if you do salvage the bioware, how do you store it? Transport it? It won't keep for long, unlike Cyberware, whick once cleaned up can be kept in a box.
lorechaser
You roll logic+biotech?

Though it's not in the main book, I would easily accept the existence of a small cryochamber for carrying organs for a week or more.
WhiskeyMac
The problem with Synaptic Boosters that no-one seems to realize is that they can't be turned off. So you're going to be affected by the rules for cranked up reflexes at all times. Wired Reflexes come standard with a on/off switch so I would personally prefer them over Synaptic Boosters. Some things with bioware are better like Muscle Toner/Augmentation, Damage Compensators or even the Sleep Regulator. But some things just make sense to have with cyber like Internal Commlink or a Control Rig.

Quick side question: Is Augmentation going to bring back my personal favorite reflex cranker the Move-By-Wire?
hyzmarca
Bioware reflex enhancements don't make you twitchy and even if they did the twitchy rules are gone.
WhiskeyMac
Where does it state that? I can understand the not twitchy part but I think a wider "datapath" in your spine would still make you jumpy. You react faster but you don't think any faster, unless you also have the cerebral booster, which would make you susceptible to the overactive reflex rules. I just don't think that bioware makes you less overreactive because it's biological instead of mechanical.
Fortune
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
Where does it state that?

Well, in SR3 it was stated quite clearly that only Cybernetic Initiative increases made you twitchy (ie. Wired Reflexes without a trigger, Boosted, Move-by-Wire).

It would be hard to find a mention of twitchiness in SR4, since as was said, it is not a factor anymore (as yet), so why would there be a mention?
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Fortune)
It would be hard to find a mention of twitchiness in SR4, since as was said, it is not a factor anymore (as yet), so why would there be a mention?

Any additional IP takes away one dice when sneaking past motion detectors.
Fortune
Not necessarily due to 'twitchiness' though.
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