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> Personal augmentation: keeping up with the times
Wanderer
post Sep 4 2006, 12:25 PM
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Well, taking a second thought on the SR4 cyberware/bioware augmentation rules, I realize that from an OOC point of view, the game is finally evolving away from its hard-core '80s "chrome" cyberpunk aesthetic and embracing some of the '90s postcyberpunk/transhumanist "genetic engineering" one, and from an IC POV, it seems like the setting shows a healthy technological evolution drive that mirrors RL advances. I mean the fact that traditional chrome cyberware appears posed to soon go the way of the dodo and the horse-buggy: even now in the 2070s, bioware is already more essence-friendly, can do almost everything cyberware does (except senseware and datajacks), has (likely) less maintenance requirements with self-repair abilities, and is much more subtle (no likelihood of being spotted by cyberware detectors). The only residual advantage of cyberware is price. Moreover, most of the functions where cyberware cannot be substituted by biological augmentations, can generally be substituted by external miniaturized gadgets (e.g. contact lenses, earbuds, electrodes), if one does not bother with the remote possibility of being stripped of.

This to mean that even now, I see cyberware as a definitely obsolete, residual technology that characters should be moved to use only by entry-level budget and artificial availability limitations (in the case that one even bothers to heed the character creation 'ware availiability thresholds; I don't. Budget limits are more than enough for game balance concerns). It's not something that I expect successful corporate operatives and runners to have or keep in the long term. Apart from money, I cannot see any IC reason why a character should choose or keep cyberware over bioware, when the biological alternative is available. The days of chrome cyberlimbs are numbered...

Consequences for the game setting: apart from aesthetic ones: much less people wearing obvious cyberware in the streets, which makes for a less alienating social environment, which might not be a bad thing, as it lets the game setting keep pace with source fiction, it makes augmented people much more subtle: in the 2070s, if a normal-looking person suddenly shows superhuman strength or speed, is he an adept or augmented with bioware ? Moreover, in all likelihood, bioware is much less burdensome to the psyche, so 'ware alienation is less of a personal and social concern. Last but not leats, bioware is less burdensome to essence and less socially alienating, so it is more likely that people other than combat, infiltration, or matrix specialists may be interested in having it. More likelihood of hybridization between magic and bioware, for one thing.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Sep 4 2006, 12:30 PM
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If by 'chrome' you mean nano-generated materials blurring the line between living and dead matter, you should consider again.
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Firewall
post Sep 4 2006, 12:57 PM
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I think what they mean is like the Deus Ex theme. In the original, you are playing one of the first to have non-obvious enhancements. You have two fellow agents of the old school, with clunky, highly-visible metal.

What I see is that chrome will become the new vinyl. The 'purists' and veterans will stick with the metal-look, while it becomes easier to hide your enhancements. To take a current situation; look at punk. Old-school punk is safety-pins and mohawks. New punk is baggy trousers and ties. (wtf? When did ties become punk?) And, in the same vein, it is considered that the harder it is to hide your body-modifications (like shaved hair, piercings, tatoos) the more hardcore you are.

So a professional at the subtle end of the spectrum (infiltrator, face) will look almost like a Johnson but have 'ware up the wazoo. On the other hand, a career-heavy (street samurai, meat-shield, some deckers) will look more like the T-1000 from terminator...
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hobgoblin
post Sep 4 2006, 01:14 PM
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QUOTE
(wtf? When did ties become punk?)


hell if i know, but it looks like its supposed to be worn out of context.
maybe its a bit of a kick towards that old "tie required to enter" gag. or that its not the packaging that defines the attitude?
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Wanderer
post Sep 4 2006, 01:19 PM
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QUOTE (Firewall @ Sep 4 2006, 01:57 PM)
What I see is that chrome will become the new vinyl.  The 'purists' and veterans will stick with the metal-look, while it becomes easier to hide your enhancements.  To take a current situation; look at punk.  Old-school punk is safety-pins and mohawks.  New punk is baggy trousers and ties.  (wtf?  When did ties become punk?)  And, in the same vein, it is considered that the harder it is to hide your body-modifications (like shaved hair, piercings, tatoos) the more hardcore you are.

So a professional at the subtle end of the spectrum (infiltrator, face) will look almost like a Johnson but have 'ware up the wazoo.  On the other hand, a career-heavy (street samurai, meat-shield, some deckers) will look more like the T-1000 from terminator...

I agree on the vinyl comparison, and indeed I see chrome to become the hallmark of nostalgic or economically-challenged wanna-bees, stuff for gangsters and punks. I heartily disagree with the career-heavy *true* professional choosing metal over flesh. Even now, bioware (and likely, geneware and nanoware) have so many objective comparatiove advantages that a serious professional should nealry always choose it: less essence expense, which means you can stuff more augmentations in one individual, less maintainance, more subtetly. I see a serious samurai or decker bothering to buy only that cyberware that cannot be effectively substituted by bio-, gene-, or nano-ware.

I chalk nanoware and geneware up with bioware since they are much more similar to each other than to classical, metal-piece or electronic cyberware. Nanoware shares many of the characteristics of genetic ware (augmentation instead of substitution, self-repair, subtlety, essence-friendliness) and indeed fuizzies the bio-machine divide. My critique of being wholly obsolete is for the classical cybernetic, hard piece of mechanical or electronic implant. That's the technology that in the setting is becomeing rapidly obsolete. Which does not mean it will not keep having niche optimal applications and romantic estimators... but it will be wholly residual.
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lorechaser
post Sep 4 2006, 04:36 PM
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1. Good post. ;)

2. There's still a certain amount of intimidation factor to be had with Chrome. The high end opponents will likely know to be more afraid of the guy that looks completely normal, but mid to low opponents are going to be more afraid of the guy that gleams.

3. Keep in mind that in SR4, there's a suggestion that Cyber and Bio affect you differently, since you only take 1/2 the essence for the lower bit. I can see there being a set of things that get routinely shuffled to cyber (Eyes/Ears, Spurs, limbs, etc), and the rest being bio. But the smartest sams are going to find the optimal balance of 3.8 bioware and 3.6 cyberware, or whatever it works out to for them. I like this - it frees you up to get your abilities from bioware, and your gizmos from cyber. You can get synaptic boosters and muscle toner, then throw in spurs and a cybergun, without sacrificing so much....
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Xenefungus
post Sep 4 2006, 05:03 PM
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Obviously Bioware is better and will be used by most professional characters.
Exceptions are the Control Rig and the Reaction Enhancers, which make it quite attractive for a Rigger/Sam to still get Cyberware.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Sep 4 2006, 05:24 PM
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QUOTE (Wanderer)
I chalk nanoware and geneware up with bioware since they are much more similar to each other than to classical, metal-piece or electronic cyberware.

Most Cyberware installed with nano-surgery now and basically builds itself... grades would be the refinement of host analysis, selection of nanites and programming.
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Conskill
post Sep 4 2006, 07:31 PM
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Keep in mind the economics of augmentation as well as the physical impact.

Pretend you're Megacorp Executive X, who needs to decide how to spend the security funds for your modest but incredibly secure compound in the middle of God Only Knows. Because you're researching The Next Big Thing here in God Only Knows, the probability of a shadowrunner hit is approaching 100%.

You have a group of dedicated and trained security personnel ready to put their lives on the line for your bottom line. How do you augment them?

1) Drugs?
2) Bioware?
3) Cyberware?

Drugs are a very neat and cheap option, however have considerable overhead. You need a constant supply of combat drugs and face your security detail going batshit insane in short order. Despite rumors to the contrary, you can't just "take it right before combat." Shadowrunners don't send RSVPs.

Bioware? Nice. It's what the shadowrunners are going to have, and your head of security (on loan to you after a five year stint as a colonel in Desert Wars) came with some already in place. You really can't beat it for efficiency, but, you know, we did have to cut back Undefined All-Inclusive Winter Holiday bonuses.

Cyberware, ahh, my dear friend cyberware. You can't fit as much into a metahuman body -- they told you why once, but the explanation involved more technobabble and terms like "holistic integrity" than you like. Damnit, you got a MBA to avoid hearing stuff like that! Anyway, you were never planning to stuff them with augmentations anyway, just one or two little things here and there to be competitive. So in the end its cheaper, if you ignore all that fruity holistic integrity stuff, plus those always-recording cybereyes are great for when they come by to ask for a raise!
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Wanderer
post Sep 4 2006, 08:48 PM
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QUOTE (Conskill)
Keep in mind the economics of augmentation as well as the physical impact.

Pretend you're Megacorp Executive X, who needs to decide how to spend the security funds for your modest but incredibly secure compound in the middle of God Only Knows. You have a group of dedicated and trained security personnel ready to put their lives on the line for your bottom line. How do you augment them?


Bioware? Nice. It's what the shadowrunners are going to have, and your head of security (on loan to you after a five year stint as a colonel in Desert Wars) came with some already in place. You really can't beat it for efficiency, but, you know, we did have to cut back Undefined All-Inclusive Winter Holiday bonuses.

Cyberware, ahh, my dear friend cyberware. You can't fit as much into a metahuman body -- they told you why once, but the explanation involved more technobabble and terms like "holistic integrity" than you like. Damnit, you got a MBA to avoid hearing stuff like that! Anyway, you were never planning to stuff them with augmentations anyway, just one or two little things here and there to be competitive. So in the end its cheaper, if you ignore all that fruity holistic integrity stuff, plus those always-recording cybereyes are great for when they come by to ask for a raise!

There is some truth in your analysis, but it confirms my point: the only residual valid reason for choosing cyberware over bioware is a stringy budget: cyber has become the hallmark of the entry level. Which, admittedly, the "cannon-fodder" vanilla security guards for Corporate Installation X are going to be. I reckon that selfsame corporate executive would instead choose bioware to augment the para-military security forces and elite enforcers or runners of the corp.

And I reckon that a corp executive that is responsible for security and is so slacky as not to bother mastering the basics of something so central to his job as human augmentation, is not going to enjoy those All-Inclusive Winter Holiday bonuses for long. Not after shadowrunners raid his installation and shred his security guards like toothpicks. 8)
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Butterblume
post Sep 4 2006, 08:51 PM
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Prize does matter, especially if you don't plan on playing the char often.
I created a char for a campaign, whom I consider to be very professional, who has about 4,8 points worth of cyber and 2,2 worth of bioware.

The 50BP cap for equipment is a real cap real fast...
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lorechaser
post Sep 4 2006, 08:56 PM
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QUOTE (Wanderer)
And I reckon that a corp executive that is responsible for security and is so slacky as not to bother mastering the basics of something so central to his job as human augmentation, is not going to enjoy those All-Inclusive Winter Holiday bonuses for long. Not after shadowrunners raid his installation and shred his security guards like toothpicks. 8)

You'd be really, really surprised.

Trust me. I've spent enough time in the corporate environment to know that you don't have to know things when you're higher up. Something as non-essential as "How much stuff you can put in a grunt" would fall under inconsequential.

And besides, the exec would simply tell his bosses that he was relying on the knowledge of a lower level advisor (who he had previously told never to question his decisions). The exec would say "I know - I've been trying to increase my budget for months, but keep getting shot down. Maybe this time I can get that 500k :nuyen: per annum increase?"
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knasser
post Sep 4 2006, 09:39 PM
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I would like to see more reasonable rules for cyberlimbs, torso and skull. Bioware is all well and good, but surely there is something to be said for a body that is inherently bullet-resistant and which we can guess probably doesn't get tired.
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Samaels Ghost
post Sep 4 2006, 09:59 PM
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QUOTE (knasser @ Sep 4 2006, 04:39 PM)
I would like to see more reasonable rules for cyberlimbs, torso and skull. Bioware is all well and good, but surely there is something to be said for a body that is inherently bullet-resistant and which we can guess probably doesn't get tired.

A natural armor rating to supplement the Physical Track boosts?
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Wanderer
post Sep 4 2006, 10:01 PM
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QUOTE (knasser)
I would like to see more reasonable rules for cyberlimbs, torso and skull. Bioware is all well and good, but surely there is something to be said for a body that is inherently bullet-resistant and which we can guess probably doesn't get tired.

I sincerely doubt that any degree of armored cyberlimbs could bring substantial defense benefits that maxed out Bone Density Augmentation and Orthoskin cannot (or Dermal Plating and Bone Lacing, for that matter). Notwithstanding how much chrome purists may regret the issue for aesthetic reasons, the age of the cyberlimb has ended and whole cyberlimb substitution is almost always the stupidest thing to do. Augment healthy flesh, never substitute it. The only possible exception to this rule are cyber-eyes and -ears, and by now, with the widespread availability of unconspicous contact lenses and earbuds (really, how many opponents are going to notice them), even this exception is beginning to crumble. Nowadays in the setting, cyberlimbs are for when whole-body AI robots will become feasible, not for augmenting humans. However, I also expect that at the same time AI robots become feasible, so it will become to grow genegineered artificial lifeforms that will incorporate insane amounts of bioware from birth... and it won't harm their essence because it will be fully integrated in their DNA and naturally grown in the clone tank along with the rest of the body !!!
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Cabral
post Sep 4 2006, 10:07 PM
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I believe in previous SR resources it has been stipulated that cyberware is powered by your body's own energy. This drain can result in the same amount of fatigue as seen in unaugmented humanoids, and depending on the efficiency of the transfer, could result in faster fatiguing.
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knasser
post Sep 4 2006, 10:23 PM
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QUOTE (Wanderer)

I sincerely doubt that any degree of armored cyberlimbs could bring substantial defense benefits that maxed out Bone Density Augmentation and Orthoskin cannot (or Dermal Plating and Bone Lacing, for that matter).


Are you kidding? It ain't great to have an arm or a leg bone fractured (and bone density will help to some degree with this), but tissue damage can be lethal. Blood loss, severed ligaments... rubber skin might help protect a little, but it's all still there. Or you can have an entirely artificial limb made of metal or the hardest polymers around. It could be damaged by a bullet but (a) that isn't going to be life threatening and (b) it ought to be inherently more bullet resistant than anything resembling skin.

As to it being powered by the muscles own resources... well that may or may not be the case. I've always considered them to have an internal power source because I don't see the human body powering cyberlimbs effectively (and you have the messy way of having to burn the glucose when there are much more energy-dense ways of powering it). But even if you did want to say it were powered by the human body, then muscle fatigue isn't normally down to a shortage of energy (that's starvation), but by the breakdown of proteins and the build up of lactic acid. Neither of these are going to affect a cyberlimb so I see a de facto tirelessness being another advantage of cyberlimbs.

But mainly, I just can't see a torso made out of the hardest alloys and or polymers available as being other than much harder to penetrate than any bioware solution.
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hyzmarca
post Sep 4 2006, 10:51 PM
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By canon, it can. The max armor rating of a cybertorso's armor is 3/5 (round down) = 0. The max rating of dermal plating and orthoskin is 3.

It may be silly but it is in the bible.
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Wanderer
post Sep 4 2006, 11:24 PM
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Indeed; criticizable as it may be, the maximum armor rating a cyberlimb may have is 4, whereas the maximum rating of Orthoskin is 3, or 4 for Dermal Plating + Titanium Bone Lacing. Obviously, if one sticks to the rules, armor cyberlimb is not the optimal choice for personal defense augmentation.
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WhiskeyMac
post Sep 4 2006, 11:25 PM
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In the description of bioware though it states that keeping a good balance with all the augmented and unaugmented systems is tricky. That's why I think that bioware is going to have some interesting elements added to it's maintenance in Augmentation. Probably a port over of the reduced resistance to pathogens as well as some of the other stuff from M&M.

I'm kind of on the fence about the bioware/cyberware/geneware/nanoware debate. Chrome and shiny is the ultimate cyberpunk, which is Shadowrun's bread and butter. But those other wares make much more sense in the long run. I'm just wondering which edition is going to introduce bioroids and cyborg bodies :D

And a quick side note: Bone density shouldn't help stop bullets except when they are already in you. Orthoskin should but it would have to be like kevlar and an inch thick or something. That's outrageous.
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Wanderer
post Sep 4 2006, 11:43 PM
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QUOTE (WhiskeyMac @ Sep 5 2006, 12:25 AM)
Chrome and shiny is the ultimate cyberpunk, which is Shadowrun's bread and butter.

You mean retro '80s cyberpunk, and not even all of the classical authors (e.g. Greg Bear was never for the mechanical stuff, and instead focused on biological and nanoware augmentation; Bruce Sterling gave equal attention to mechanical and biological augmentation). If one takes a whole look at the genre, including its '90s and '00s developments, one has to recognize that chrome is quite passè and genes and nano are the wave of the future. ;) IMO, it is quite fitting that the authors of Shadowrun are doing an ongoing effort to keep the game abreast with the evolution of its source genre (or better, half of it; the other half is high-magic urban fantasy), instead of keeping it stuck to the obsolete '80s version.

Just the same way I welcome the effort to gradually downplay the obnoxious legacy of what was revealed to be one of the most ridiculous futuristic predictions of '80s Sci-Fi: future cultural and economic domination of Japan. Which means less Japanese mega-corporations, less Japanese cultural fanboyism in the West, and Japanese troops off California. It took three editions, but eventually it happened.
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cx2
post Sep 5 2006, 02:59 AM
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On the corp sec front, the guy who runs security for the facility isn't necessarily the guy who equips the guards with cyber. I could easily see them being outfitted in training or thereabouts. Alternately a different person could easily deal with this if someone was given cyber after training, maybe based on rank or performance.
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kzt
post Sep 5 2006, 03:09 AM
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QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
Orthoskin should but it would have to be like kevlar and an inch thick or something. That's outrageous.

Lots of things are stonger then kevlar. Naotech will make them a lot easier to do. Exactly what the effects on your body of doing this are unclear, I'd expect some really nasty bruises and major skin damage as you get subdermal damage from bullets and skin layer seperation unless it did the niven imact armor thing also.

Against blades and such it would be pretty clearly effective.
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Protagonist
post Sep 5 2006, 04:45 AM
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QUOTE (Wanderer)
This to mean that even now, I see cyberware as a definitely obsolete

Well, you're wrong ( :P ). Bioware is obviously less obtrusive and more subtle, but it can't do everything cyberware can, and never will.

For instance with bioware, I cannot replace my cock with a laser weapon. Sure, it's not in the book, but as a GM, I personally enjoy creating cyber that's not (military protypes, for example).

There's a ton of other stuff you just can't do with bio (and vice-versa). Both will always remain viable.
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Ranneko
post Sep 5 2006, 04:53 AM
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Indeed, cyber is not restricted to the theoretically natural.

Cyber is the only thing that can hide a gun in your arm, or allow you to record and playback everything you see.
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