 Summoning multiple spirits in one scene |
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 Sep 11 2006, 01:08 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 6-September 02 Member No.: 3,234  |
If you summon an unbound spirit, direct it to perform a service, then tell it is released at the conclusion of the task, notwithstanding how many services the spirit may still owe, can the magician immediately summon another spirit in the next action ?
I'm asking since I remind one could do this in SR3, if the shaman switched from one domain to another, in a place where overlapping domains were present. |
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Sep 11 2006, 01:44 PM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
i don't see why not.
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Sep 11 2006, 02:01 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
I'd say no, you can't summon another until that spirit has concluded its service, and is thus released. The exception to this would be if you sent the spirit on a remote service, because then it doesn't count toward the limit. Many folks, however, myself included, regard that rule as too easily abusable. Of course, this is all moot, if the task you set the spirit to is concluded before your next action.
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 Sep 11 2006, 02:54 PM
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#4
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,043 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
As long as the spirit remains within your control radius (100m x Magic IIRC) it still falls under your limit of one unbound spirit, only when it is actually released you can summon another. You can do this with a remote service, though, as long as the spirit has to leave your control radius to perform the service, since otherwise it's not remote.
Bye Thanee |
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Sep 11 2006, 03:07 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
That's a petty differance since all a mage would have to do is say, "Go 100m x my magic rating + 1m that way come back and attack this fool."
I think there is also some contradiction between the rules of remote services and limits if I remember correctly. In one place it says a spirit on a remote service does not count in another it sas that they do. |
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Sep 11 2006, 03:10 PM
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#6
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,043 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
That won't help, since that's not a remote service then. And other than with remote services, spirits cannot leave that area (if they are forced outside, they will return as quickly as they can).
The contradiction you are speaking of is none... the two different rules are about different limits. One speaks about unbound spirit limit (=1) and one about bound spirit limit (=Cha). Spirits on remote do not count against the first, but do count against the latter. Bye Thanee |
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Sep 11 2006, 03:13 PM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Why wouldn't it be a remote service? It's a silly, rules lawyery, and metagamed remote service, but it satisfies the requirement of the spirit leaving the control radius.
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Sep 11 2006, 03:17 PM
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#8
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,043 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Common Sense. :D
A remote service has to happen (entirely) outside of the vincinity of the mage. The rules are certainly more than ambiguous on this topic, but that's what I think is meant there. :) Bye Thanee |
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Sep 11 2006, 03:24 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Not quite. SR4 pg. 178: "if forced outside this radius, they will return as quickly as they can." So if you jump on a train and leave your fighting spirit behind, he'll disengage and chase you as soon as you move too far away. |
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Sep 11 2006, 03:26 PM
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#10
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
That would mean services like "pick up that box and carry it to there" are not possible if the box in within the radius and the destination is outside of it. Somehow I don't think that's what was intended. |
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Sep 11 2006, 03:31 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
My solution to that problem would be to not treat it as a remote service until he has to leave the control radius. I realize that there are other situations that can make that more complicated, but I think there are common sense answers to a lot of the remote service problems.
Of course, my own solution is to count them toward the unbound spirit limit. That is to say, I ignore the offending rule. |
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Sep 11 2006, 03:40 PM
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#12
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
hmmm... just read the question more carefully, and i'm gonna have to retract my opinion that it's possible.
thought he was asking if he could dismiss a spirit then summon a new one... guess that's what i get for being in a hurry lol =P |
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Sep 11 2006, 03:48 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 693 Joined: 26-March 03 Member No.: 4,335 |
The SR4 system gives the GM great flexibility to decide on nitpicky little points like this. Matrix work has lots of examples of this.
So the GM can decide if something is really a remote service or if a mage is just rules-pimping. He/She/It tends to know the player after all. 1) You can summon 1 unbound spirit at a time on the fly. The limit is to keep summoning on the fly under control. 2) The ability to do remote services is a nice perk to allow temporary tasked spirits to do jobs while not under direct supervision, at the cost of no continued service. 3) The possibility of Binding allows the mage to have more than one spirit on call and working for you simultaneously. That's the basics, right there. If the player tries to wedge the rules in such a way to get #2 to do the job of #3, but more easily, then um, we say no. Or more accurately, the #2 doesnt apply in this case because it's really a case for #1. #2 is a special case of #1, not #3. #3 is a different special case of #1. When in doubt, default to #1. |
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Sep 11 2006, 03:52 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
Lantzer, you are a madman. Are you suggesting that it's ok for the rules not to have airtight protections against all twinkery? That, in fact, the solution is "Don't be a dumbass."? Crazy.
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Sep 11 2006, 05:09 PM
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#15
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,043 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Whoops, ok. Was working from memory there. :) Bye Thanee |
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Sep 11 2006, 05:11 PM
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#16
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,043 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
I don't think picking up a box would count as a service... But yeah, the wording I used up there surely isn't the best either, so you certainly have a point there. :) I hope you know what I mean, though. Bye Thanee |
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Sep 11 2006, 05:14 PM
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#17
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The rules are flat contradictory on this point. But your Unbound Spirit should be under your limit of 1 unbound spirit while it is performing a remote service (like it says on page 179), rather than being avaiable in unlimited quantities (like it says on page 178).
Remote service is supposed to be a disadvantage, not a license to produce an army of thousands. The text on page 178 is a flat error and will hopefully be fixed in the FAQ. You know, whenever that actually gets printed. -Frank |
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Sep 11 2006, 05:33 PM
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#18
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,043 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
I don't think it is. An unbound spirit sent on remote does not count against your limit of summoned spirits, so you can summon a new one. Any spirit on remote, however, counts against your bound spirit limit, so you cannot have unlimited ones, but only your Cha minus the spirits you have bound currently. While you have as many spirits bound as your Cha, you cannot send unbound spirits on remote, only bound spirits. Bye Thanee |
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Sep 11 2006, 05:42 PM
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#19
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Thanee, that's certainly a way to read the rules. But it's pretty broken, and I would hope that it is not how it comes down in the final draft. Here's a snippet from a conversation I had with one of the designers about that portion of the FAQ:
So it's not definite, since in the fullness of time virtually anything could happen. But for the moment, I don't buy your reading or your reasoning in the face of the other evidence I have seen. -Frank |
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Sep 11 2006, 05:52 PM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Change it to "pick up that bomb and carry it to the airport." Does that use up a service? I understand your reasoning, in that you don't want to allow someone to repeatedly summon spirits in combat, but the method you're using is a bad one as it opens up its own world of abuses. |
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Sep 11 2006, 05:53 PM
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#21
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,043 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Well, I wouldn't allow casting and sustaining a spell on the spellcaster as a remote service. That simply is not a remote service in my book. :)
Clarifying what a remote service actually is, would cover what you have posted above. Bye Thanee |
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Sep 11 2006, 05:56 PM
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#22
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,043 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
I only meant the picking up part (because that happens in side the control radius). :D Of course, delivering something to somewhere outside the control radius would be a perfect example of a remote service. Picking up a bomb and delivering it to the airport, for example. Just don't expect it to actually arrive there, considering, that the spirit must travel physically, and once the security mages have your signature from the spirit, you can expect some trouble as well. ;)
And what would you say is a remote service then!? Bye Thanee |
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Sep 11 2006, 06:06 PM
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#23
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
What about going somehwere else and bringing you something back? The spirit returns to your control radius, does that mean it's not a remote service?
A service that requires you to leave the base control radius. You know, where the spirit goes remote as part of his service. :) |
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Sep 11 2006, 06:13 PM
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#24
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I don't think that hand waving about what is and is not a "remote service" is at all helpful or useful.
If a service requires the spirit to leave the control area, it's a remote service. If ordering your spiris to do that causes your control limit to increase, there's a flaw in therules. Page 178 is flat wrong, and it's ot helpful to try to incorporate it into the rest of the rules. -Frank |
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Sep 11 2006, 06:25 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
"I don't like it" is not the same thing as "It's wrong".
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