Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Summoning multiple spirits in one scene
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Wanderer
If you summon an unbound spirit, direct it to perform a service, then tell it is released at the conclusion of the task, notwithstanding how many services the spirit may still owe, can the magician immediately summon another spirit in the next action ?

I'm asking since I remind one could do this in SR3, if the shaman switched from one domain to another, in a place where overlapping domains were present.
Jaid
i don't see why not.
Eryk the Red
I'd say no, you can't summon another until that spirit has concluded its service, and is thus released. The exception to this would be if you sent the spirit on a remote service, because then it doesn't count toward the limit. Many folks, however, myself included, regard that rule as too easily abusable. Of course, this is all moot, if the task you set the spirit to is concluded before your next action.
Thanee
As long as the spirit remains within your control radius (100m x Magic IIRC) it still falls under your limit of one unbound spirit, only when it is actually released you can summon another. You can do this with a remote service, though, as long as the spirit has to leave your control radius to perform the service, since otherwise it's not remote.

Bye
Thanee
Demerzel
That's a petty differance since all a mage would have to do is say, "Go 100m x my magic rating + 1m that way come back and attack this fool."

I think there is also some contradiction between the rules of remote services and limits if I remember correctly. In one place it says a spirit on a remote service does not count in another it sas that they do.
Thanee
That won't help, since that's not a remote service then. And other than with remote services, spirits cannot leave that area (if they are forced outside, they will return as quickly as they can).

The contradiction you are speaking of is none... the two different rules are about different limits. One speaks about unbound spirit limit (=1) and one about bound spirit limit (=Cha). Spirits on remote do not count against the first, but do count against the latter.

Bye
Thanee
James McMurray
Why wouldn't it be a remote service? It's a silly, rules lawyery, and metagamed remote service, but it satisfies the requirement of the spirit leaving the control radius.
Thanee
Common Sense. biggrin.gif

A remote service has to happen (entirely) outside of the vincinity of the mage.

The rules are certainly more than ambiguous on this topic, but that's what I think is meant there. smile.gif

Bye
Thanee
Slithery D
QUOTE (Thanee)
That won't help, since that's not a remote service then. And other than with remote services, spirits cannot leave that area (if they are forced outside, they are disrupted).

Not quite. SR4 pg. 178: "if forced outside this radius, they will return as quickly as they can."

So if you jump on a train and leave your fighting spirit behind, he'll disengage and chase you as soon as you move too far away.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Thanee)
A remote service has to happen (entirely) outside of the vincinity of the mage.

That would mean services like "pick up that box and carry it to there" are not possible if the box in within the radius and the destination is outside of it. Somehow I don't think that's what was intended.
Eryk the Red
My solution to that problem would be to not treat it as a remote service until he has to leave the control radius. I realize that there are other situations that can make that more complicated, but I think there are common sense answers to a lot of the remote service problems.

Of course, my own solution is to count them toward the unbound spirit limit. That is to say, I ignore the offending rule.
Jaid
hmmm... just read the question more carefully, and i'm gonna have to retract my opinion that it's possible.

thought he was asking if he could dismiss a spirit then summon a new one... guess that's what i get for being in a hurry lol =P
Lantzer
The SR4 system gives the GM great flexibility to decide on nitpicky little points like this. Matrix work has lots of examples of this.

So the GM can decide if something is really a remote service or if a mage is just rules-pimping. He/She/It tends to know the player after all.

1) You can summon 1 unbound spirit at a time on the fly. The limit is to keep summoning on the fly under control.
2) The ability to do remote services is a nice perk to allow temporary tasked spirits to do jobs while not under direct supervision, at the cost of no continued service.
3) The possibility of Binding allows the mage to have more than one spirit on call and working for you simultaneously.

That's the basics, right there. If the player tries to wedge the rules in such a way to get #2 to do the job of #3, but more easily, then um, we say no. Or more accurately, the #2 doesnt apply in this case because it's really a case for #1. #2 is a special case of #1, not #3. #3 is a different special case of #1. When in doubt, default to #1.
Eryk the Red
Lantzer, you are a madman. Are you suggesting that it's ok for the rules not to have airtight protections against all twinkery? That, in fact, the solution is "Don't be a dumbass."? Crazy.
Thanee
QUOTE (Slithery D)
Not quite. SR4 pg. 178: "if forced outside this radius, they will return as quickly as they can."

Whoops, ok. Was working from memory there. smile.gif

Bye
Thanee
Thanee
QUOTE (James McMurray)
That would mean services like "pick up that box and carry it to there" are not possible if the box in within the radius and the destination is outside of it. Somehow I don't think that's what was intended.

I don't think picking up a box would count as a service...

But yeah, the wording I used up there surely isn't the best either, so you certainly have a point there. smile.gif I hope you know what I mean, though.

Bye
Thanee
FrankTrollman
The rules are flat contradictory on this point. But your Unbound Spirit should be under your limit of 1 unbound spirit while it is performing a remote service (like it says on page 179), rather than being avaiable in unlimited quantities (like it says on page 178).

Remote service is supposed to be a disadvantage, not a license to produce an army of thousands. The text on page 178 is a flat error and will hopefully be fixed in the FAQ. You know, whenever that actually gets printed.

-Frank
Thanee
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Sep 11 2006, 07:14 PM)
The rules are flat contradictory on this point. But your Unbound Spirit should be under your limit of 1 unbound spirit while it is performing a remote service (like it says on page 179), rather than being avaiable in unlimited quantities (like it says on page 178).

Remote service is supposed to be a disadvantage, not a license to produce an army of thousands. The text on page 178 is a flat error and will hopefully be fixed in the FAQ. You know, whenever that actually gets printed.

-Frank

I don't think it is.

An unbound spirit sent on remote does not count against your limit of summoned spirits, so you can summon a new one.

Any spirit on remote, however, counts against your bound spirit limit, so you cannot have unlimited ones, but only your Cha minus the spirits you have bound currently.

While you have as many spirits bound as your Cha, you cannot send unbound spirits on remote, only bound spirits.

Bye
Thanee
FrankTrollman
Thanee, that's certainly a way to read the rules. But it's pretty broken, and I would hope that it is not how it comes down in the final draft. Here's a snippet from a conversation I had with one of the designers about that portion of the FAQ:

QUOTE (Me and Peter Taylor)
> Firstly, I think it's pretty important for Game
> Balance that an unbound spirit on remote service
> counts against your one unbound spirit and not
> against your bound spirit limit. I say this
> specifically because Shamans (who are
> Charisma casters) have access to Spirits of Man. A
> valid task for them would be to "Sit around the
> house all day sustaining Armor on me" - and the
> Innate Spell optional power makes that possible.
> The Bound Spirit cap is, for a high Charisma Elf,
> very similar to having no cap at all.
> And with spirits of man being able to maintain a
> magician's spells while hundreds of kilometers away
> watching trid, that's... potentially unbalancing.

I agree. This will be covered in errata as well as the
FAQ.


So it's not definite, since in the fullness of time virtually anything could happen. But for the moment, I don't buy your reading or your reasoning in the face of the other evidence I have seen.

-Frank
James McMurray
QUOTE (Thanee)
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Sep 11 2006, 05:26 PM)
That would mean services like "pick up that box and carry it to there" are not possible if the box in within the radius and the destination is outside of it. Somehow I don't think that's what was intended.

I don't think picking up a box would count as a service...

But yeah, the wording I used up there surely isn't the best either, so you certainly have a point there. smile.gif I hope you know what I mean, though.

Bye
Thanee

Change it to "pick up that bomb and carry it to the airport." Does that use up a service?

I understand your reasoning, in that you don't want to allow someone to repeatedly summon spirits in combat, but the method you're using is a bad one as it opens up its own world of abuses.
Thanee
Well, I wouldn't allow casting and sustaining a spell on the spellcaster as a remote service. That simply is not a remote service in my book. smile.gif

Clarifying what a remote service actually is, would cover what you have posted above.

Bye
Thanee
Thanee
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Change it to "pick up that bomb and carry it to the airport." Does that use up a service?

I only meant the picking up part (because that happens in side the control radius). biggrin.gif

Of course, delivering something to somewhere outside the control radius would be a perfect example of a remote service. Picking up a bomb and delivering it to the airport, for example. Just don't expect it to actually arrive there, considering, that the spirit must travel physically, and once the security mages have your signature from the spirit, you can expect some trouble as well. wink.gif

QUOTE
I understand your reasoning, in that you don't want to allow someone to repeatedly summon spirits in combat, but the method you're using is a bad one as it opens up its own world of abuses.


And what would you say is a remote service then!?

Bye
Thanee
James McMurray
QUOTE
Of course, delivering something to somewhere outside the control radius would be a perfect example of a remote service.


What about going somehwere else and bringing you something back? The spirit returns to your control radius, does that mean it's not a remote service?

QUOTE
And what would you say is a remote service then!?


A service that requires you to leave the base control radius. You know, where the spirit goes remote as part of his service. smile.gif
FrankTrollman
I don't think that hand waving about what is and is not a "remote service" is at all helpful or useful.

If a service requires the spirit to leave the control area, it's a remote service. If ordering your spiris to do that causes your control limit to increase, there's a flaw in therules.

Page 178 is flat wrong, and it's ot helpful to try to incorporate it into the rest of the rules.

-Frank
Eryk the Red
"I don't like it" is not the same thing as "It's wrong".
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Eryk the Red)
"I don't like it" is not the same thing as "It's wrong".

But in this case it is wrong. The clarification was cut from Street Magic on the grounds that it belonged in the errata/FAQ for the main book - and while we're still waiting for that, the answer is still the same.

Page 178 is wrong.

-Frank
Thanee
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Sep 11 2006, 08:06 PM)
What about going somehwere else and bringing you something back? The spirit returns to your control radius, does that mean it's not a remote service?


That's, indeed, a good question, and I'm currently not entirely sure, whether this should be allowed, or not. Leaning more to yes, though.

Basically, it's important to me, that the primary target of the task lies outside of the control radius. In most cases, this means, that the task has to be completed entirely outside of the control radius.

QUOTE
A service that requires you to leave the base control radius. You know, where the spirit goes remote as part of his service. smile.gif


So, you are saying, that it is easily abusable, if the spirit's task has to lie outside of the control radius, but it's fine, if you have this much less limiting constraints!?

Bye
Thanee
Thanee
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
But in this case it is wrong. The clarification was cut from Street Magic on the grounds that it belonged in the errata/FAQ for the main book - and while we're still waiting for that, the answer is still the same.

Page 178 is wrong.

Currently... no, it isn't. wink.gif

Once there is an FAQ, that actually states, that unbound spirits sent on remote still count against the summoned spirit limit, and does not approach this in any other way (like unbound spirits cannot sent on remote service at all, which would be a pretty straightforward change to disallow the summoned remote spirit army), then it is wrong.

Bye
Thanee
James McMurray
QUOTE (Thanee)
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Sep 11 2006, 08:06 PM)
What about going somehwere else and bringing you something back? The spirit returns to your control radius, does that mean it's not a remote service?


That's, indeed, a good question, and I'm currently not entirely sure, whether this should be allowed, or not. Leaning more to yes, though.

Basically, it's important to me, that the primary target of the task lies outside of the control radius. In most cases, this means, that the task has to be completed entirely outside of the control radius.

QUOTE
A service that requires you to leave the base control radius. You know, where the spirit goes remote as part of his service. smile.gif


So, you are saying, that it is easily abusable, if the spirit's task has to lie outside of the control radius, but it's fine, if you have this much less limiting constraints!?

Bye
Thanee

My version is better because it's the way the rules actually work. Any abuses due to pg 178 can be removed by removing page 178's rule, or by the GM saying "don't do that." Either one works fine.
Thanee
QUOTE (James McMurray)
...but the method you're using is a bad one as it opens up its own world of abuses.

Just to recall what you said, since you seem to have forgotten about it already. wink.gif

And saying, that one thing is great, because it is the way it is written, while admitting immediately, that it only works in a halfway balanced fashion when another rule is changed or omitted, is kinda funny, really. biggrin.gif

Anyways, I surely agree, that the rules only state, that a spirit on remote service is allowed to leave the control radius. I just don't see it as a remote service, if it doesn't actually perform its task (at least mostly) there. wink.gif

But yeah, it will be interesting to see what approach will be taken to limit remote services in some fashion.

Bye
Thanee
James McMurray
Your change was designed to cover holes. It opened up holes of its own that didn't exist before it came along. That's why it was bad. It wasn't bad simply because it had flaws.
Demerzel
Okay, Joe mage summons a spirit and send it on a remote service, "Go to Bob's bar and kill the person who's aura I'm currently thinking of."

Then Joe waits and goes to Bob's bar with a newly summoned spirit and waits for his spirit to arrive and then helps it kill the person.

Now you say, but hey, the spirit will get there faster. Simple, route the spirit to take a longer route, or give it a wait order. Now it's a remote service, that's outside the sphere of influence of the mage so far as the spirit knows. Does the mages appearance at Bob's bar create a rift in the game balance of the universe, or just show that your rule is still just as flawed.
DireRadiant
I suspect Frank has a very good idea what was intended, so I'll go with the page 178 is wrong.

Perhaps the ability to send a spirit one Remote Service, and then summon one additional one should be a metamagic.
Wanderer
Well, if I may say my opinion, I find Thanee's interpretation (unbound spirits on remote service do not count against unbound limits, but they do against Charisma bound limit) the more balanced and common-sense one. However, I might even be prepared to accept the other interpretation, at one indispensable absolute condition: that the magician is always able to summarily dismiss the unbound spirit on remote service from afar, at any time, in order to be free to call up a new one, just as he can do with nearby unbound spirits. I really hope the FAQ does not try to state that by sending an unbound spirit on remote service, a magician effectively cripples his Summoning power for gods knows how much, with no way to "unlock" himself until the spirit is eventually done with his task. It would be an extremely stupid, abusive and unenforceable rule, as no sane mage would cripple his Conjuring this way, surely not during a run, or any remotely dangerous or unknown situation, hell, not in a warded bunker. It would be then much more honest to rule that unbound spirits cannot be sent on remote services, period.
Thanee
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Your change was designed to cover holes. It opened up holes of its own that didn't exist before it came along. That's why it was bad. It wasn't bad simply because it had flaws.

I'd still like to know of which 'holes' you are speaking there... because I really don't know of any (that weren't there to begin with). smile.gif

Bye
Thanee
Slithery D
QUOTE (Wanderer)
Well, if I may say my opinion, I find Thanee's interpretation (unbound spirits on remote service do not count against unbound limits, but they do against Charisma bound limit) the more balanced and common-sense one.

That's because you haven't considered what a magician who only uses spirits for attacking people will do, forgoing all of that boring Aid Spell and Spell Sustaining crap that's so expensive for a few measly dice/turns.

Bind zero spirits, and just chain summon a series of spirits to go on remote attacks. Now you've got your Cha + 1 limit attacking in a mob without wasting BP/Karma on Binding skill or time/nuyen on binding tests. You've got to worry about some drain, but since you're sending a spirit mob to do your distance killing for you it's not that big a deal, and you can even customize your spirit types/powers (and Innate Spell selections) to the circumstances at hand, rather than trying to guess ahead of time while you're binding.

I do, however, agree that all spirits, even those on remote services, should be remotely dismissible at any time, terminating whatever they're doing so that you can summon a replacement.
Thanee
QUOTE (Demerzel)
Now it's a remote service, that's outside the sphere of influence of the mage so far as the spirit knows. Does the mages appearance at Bob's bar create a rift in the game balance of the universe, or just show that your rule is still just as flawed.

It shows, that you can always find ways to break the intention of rules. That's not hard. wink.gif

Just to be sure, I havn't claimed, that the way I think remote services should work is perfect and flawless. It surely isn't. But it's much less abusable than the written rules (which allow Cha+1 summoned spirits around you), without being forced to make unbound remote services basically completely useless. smile.gif

Bye
Thanee
Thanee
QUOTE (Slithery D @ Sep 12 2006, 12:03 AM)
That's because you haven't considered what a magician who only uses spirits for attacking people will do, forgoing all of that boring Aid Spell and Spell Sustaining crap that's so expensive for a few measly dice/turns.

Bind zero spirits, and just chain summon a series of spirits to go on remote attacks. Now you've got your Cha + 1 limit attacking in a mob without wasting BP/Karma on Binding skill or time/nuyen on binding tests. You've got to worry about some drain, but since you're sending a spirit mob to do your distance killing for you it's not that big a deal, and you can even customize your spirit types/powers (and Innate Spell selections) to the circumstances at hand, rather than trying to guess ahead of time while you're binding.


That's not really the question, though. You can do that either way, as long as the remote service limits are not changed in an upcoming errata in some fashion (I can see quite a few options there, not just saying that an unbound spirit on remote still counts as the one summoned spirit, which is one of the weaker ideas, IMHO).

The difference is, that you can do this without all the pesky long range stuff normally (and actually get the Cha+1 number, not just Cha (ok, that's not really a big deal, though wink.gif)).

There are two different questions...

1) When is a service actually a remote service?
2) How to limit multiple remote services at a time?

The stuff I have written initially, with the unbound/bound spirit limits for remote services, is how the rules work right now, since it is the only explanation, that actually works with both rules in place. It's not an answer to question 2).

The other stuff is about question 1). I just don't see it as a remote service to point at a guy across the street and let the spirit loose. Hence my more restricted interpretation of what a remote service is.

Bye
Thanee
FrankTrollman
Unbound Remote Service is a drawback. When you bind spirits, you get the ability to continue to receive regular telepathic updates and give new orders. That's an ability that Binding grants.

The fact that Unbound Spirits cannot receive new orders was never intended to be an advantage.

And any proposed solution to the fact that there's an oops left over in the basic book from a playtest version that relies on making characters justify their remote services as remote services is a complete non-starter. The whole point is that sending spirits on remote service is really hard if it isn't a Bound Spirit. You're supposed to keep them on a tight leash, that's what the control radius is all about.

I don't know why this is so hard to understand. Sending Unbound Spirits on Remote Service is a last resort. That's all it was ever intended to be. That the primary drawback was accidentally written as an advantage is a typographical error and nothing more.

Your control limit should not go up when you push your spirits to do things that are beyond the normal command limits - that's retarded.

-Frank
Thanee
Since you also do not seem to fully understand, what I'm saying...

I'm not saying it should work that way. I'm saying it does work this way currently.

And I'm saying, that you are wrong, if you claim it doesn't, just because you think it shouldn't. I certainly agree with you, that something should be done about the remote spirit army, but there is surely not only one viable option to do that.

As you said yourself:
QUOTE
So it's not definite, since in the fullness of time virtually anything could happen.


Bye
Thanee
Wanderer
QUOTE (Slithery D)
That's because you haven't considered what a magician who only uses spirits for attacking people will do, forgoing all of that boring Aid Spell and Spell Sustaining crap that's so expensive for a few measly dice/turns.

Bind zero spirits, and just chain summon a series of spirits to go on remote attacks. Now you've got your Cha + 1 limit attacking in a mob without wasting BP/Karma on Binding skill or time/nuyen on binding tests. You've got to worry about some drain, but since you're sending a spirit mob to do your distance killing for you it's not that big a deal, and you can even customize your spirit types/powers (and Innate Spell selections) to the circumstances at hand, rather than trying to guess ahead of time while you're binding.

I do, however, agree that all spirits, even those on remote services, should be remotely dismissible at any time, terminating whatever they're doing so that you can summon a replacement.

Well, show me a magician or mystic adept that can regularly pull the instant Cha+1 remote spirit army with spirits of decent Force trick without oozing brains outta the ears by Drain, and I'll show you an elite super-mage high-level initiate uberbadass with maximized Will, Drain Attribute, Centering, Ally Conjuration, Absorption, Focused Concentration, and Sacrifice that *ought* to be able to pull tricks like these because he ought also be able to effortlessly slay cybered trolls from afar with Sympathetic Linking one-man ritual spellcasting, and I fail to see the real difference.

But as I said, I'm prepared to live with the rule you advocate, as long as the unbound remote service spirit can be remotely dismissed at any time, and this is plainly and explicitly allowed in any FAQ that enforces the rule interpretation you advocate. Because I honestly fear that under the rule interpretation you seek, the scenario of the Remote Service Summoning Lockup might raise his ugly head (my veteran gamer experience makes me extremely wary to trust a developer's or a GM's intelligence not to badly overreact in the opposite direction when they smell a potentially twinky rule), and it's my sincere opinion that the Remote Service Summoning Lockup would be far more harmful to the average play than the Remote Service Spirit Army.

I'm stressing this point because I hope that the future writer of the FAQ gets to read this thread and address my honest concerns. A timely forewarning myabe just maybe spares me the necessity to wage a flame war against an abusive rule later.
mintcar
I think perhaps the intention actually was that you should be able to summon another spirit after you sent an unbound spirit on a remote service, only the designers didn't think of the possibility to just do it again indefinitely. Therefor I say you can only do it once, simply. You can send a spirit away on a remote service and summon another one, because spirits on remote services are essentially cut loose. You no longer have any control over them and can't give them further orders, they just do what they were told and then disapear. It seems to me like it makes perfect sense to let the mage summon another one when he basicly let one loose, only he gave it a last request.

But binding is the single greatest obsticle for a summoner, and circumventing it should not be allowed. God knows summoners needs to be held back in some way. So I say only allowing one spirit on remote service and one in regular service, unbound, is most in line with the intention of the rules as written.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
But as I said, I'm prepared to live with the rule you advocate, as long as the unbound remote service spirit can be remotely dismissed at any time, and this is plainly and explicitly allowed in any FAQ that enforces the rule interpretation you advocate.


I agree completely.

To be sure, the things that I believe that the statement should say:
  • You may not give any new commands to your spirit.
  • You may not tlepathically communicate with your spirit.
  • Your spirit's services do not change, and your spirit can still be bqanished as normal (this is important).
  • You may still dismiss your spirit at any time.
  • Your spirit still counts against your one unbound spirit.

Yep. That's what it should say. I don't actually see the final edit on the FAQ until it gets posted, but hopefully it will still show all these things when it gets finished.

The statements on p. 178 are all crazy. As written it says that spirits can't get banished once it goes on remote service. And that's 10 kinds of wrong.

-Frank
Slithery D
QUOTE (Wanderer @ Sep 11 2006, 05:33 PM)
Well, show me a magician or mystic adept that can regularly pull the instant Cha+1 remote spirit army with spirits of decent Force trick without oozing brains outta the ears by Drain, and I'll show you an elite super-mage high-level initiate uberbadass with maximized Will, Drain Attribute, Centering, Ally Conjuration, Absorption, Focused Concentration, and Sacrifice that *ought* to be able to pull tricks like these because he ought also be able to effortlessly slay cybered trolls from afar with Sympathetic Linking one-man ritual spellcasting, and I fail to see the real difference.

A string of Force 4 (Force 5 are feasible to bind, but not easy; 6 are pushing it) spirits isn't that hard to summon and survive up to a Cha+1 limit of maybe 4-5 for a mage. Remote service is the key word here; they're fighting somewhere where you and your stun condition modifier are not. Worst case, the spirits roll well, you roll poorly, and you have to stop after three spirits. It's still better than a poke in the eye.

Hell, I just five four dice trials through my SR random number generator and got DV values of (spirit success x 2) 2-4-6-2-0. My eight dice resistance tests resulted in drain of 0-0-5-0-0. You could easily do worse, but, again, it's worth it in some circumstances, and a big savings on binding costs/skill. (And you can do better: my second trial only took one box of drain for the same stunt, albeit on a glitched partial success...)
Thanee
QUOTE (Slithery D)
A string of Force 4 (Force 5 are feasible to bind, but not easy; 6 are pushing it) spirits isn't that hard to summon and survive up to a Cha+1 limit of maybe 4-5 for a mage. Remote service is the key word here; they're fighting somewhere where you and your stun condition modifier are not.

Yep, that would surely work... up until the point where they have tracked down your astral signature and sent in some mage with a bound spirit or two (plus the one unbound). wink.gif

QUOTE
0-0-5-0-0


At least it has some nice symmetry. smile.gif

Bye
Thanee
James McMurray
QUOTE (Thanee)
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Sep 11 2006, 11:27 PM)
Your change was designed to cover holes. It opened up holes of its own that didn't exist before it came along. That's why it was bad. It wasn't bad simply because it had flaws.

I'd still like to know of which 'holes' you are speaking there... because I really don't know of any (that weren't there to begin with). smile.gif

Bye
Thanee

The inabilty to tell a spirit to pick up a box that's next to you and carry it away from your control radius is the biggest hole that springs immediately to mind. smile.gif
Thanee
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
The statements on p. 178 are all crazy. As written it says that spirits can't get banished once it goes on remote service. And that's 10 kinds of wrong.

Do you mean the listup with the '...is destroyed, or its time of service ends...' ?

Ok, with a really literal reading I could see that, but really...

Can you even destroy spirits?

Disruption and Banishing surely would also be possible. Banshing removes the service the spirit is currently enganged in, thus it basically cancels the remote service.

But since Banishing is so bad, mechanically, with the ridiculously high drain, except when Banishing low Force unbound spirits, it's not a skill that comes into play often, anyways. That's something they should cover in the (hopefully) upcoming FAQ as well, though it sounds more like an errata so far. smile.gif

Bye
Thanee
Thanee
QUOTE (James McMurray)
The inabilty to tell a spirit to pick up a box that's next to you and carry it away from your control radius is the biggest hole that springs immediately to mind. smile.gif

You can tell the spirit anything you want. smile.gif

And even so, this would be abusive in what way exactly? eek.gif

Besides, I already stated above, that I would consider that a fine remote task.

Bye
Thanee
Slithery D
QUOTE (Thanee @ Sep 11 2006, 06:24 PM)
Yep, that would surely work... up until the point where they have tracked down your astral signature and sent in some mage with a bound spirit or two (plus the one unbound). wink.gif

That's the best completely irrelevant point I've seen in this thread.

Maybe (although astral signatures can only be "recognized," not tracked down; astral links can be tracked from spirit to summoner, but it takes hours), but the entire point of this discussion is how your proposed rule is abusable to summon spirit armies without recourse to binding them ahead of time. Whether such an action is a good idea is beside the point.
Wanderer
QUOTE (Slithery D)
You could easily do worse, but, again, it's worth it in some circumstances, and a big savings on binding costs/skill.

Well, I do not expect binding skill saving to be a significant issue since I expect the typical magician to have both the Sorcery and Conjuring skill groups anyway, not separate skills, in all but the extreme specialist's case. IMO it would be extremely stupid not to have both Spellcasting and Counterspelling, Summoning and Banishing at the same level, and then you might do the wise thing and buy the whole useful package anyway. Never call up anything you can't dismiss anytime. You can always beef up your magic dice pool with some foci, instead of limiting your magic skill options.

No, the only real limit to unrestrained use of binding is the monetery drain of ritual materials. Without it, you could take a binding binge sabbatical of some days now and then, and pile up re-binding rituals on your Cha bound spirit retinue until every spirit always owes 30-40 services or so...

Not that you can't work around this problem, too, if you really care: give your Ally Survival and Enchanting, routinely send it reagents-hunting when you are off-duty, and you're in business.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012