 Is Shadowrun an unequal world?, Discrimination, and not just metahuman. |
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 Sep 11 2006, 05:17 PM
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#1
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Shooting Target  Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992  |
After this post on theRPGsite, I was wondering what's the opinion here. So, what do you think?
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Sep 11 2006, 05:34 PM
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#2
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Uh, I don't know who that guy is, but obviously he doesn't like SR much. How this post got you thinking about if SR is "really" unequal is a bit mystifying.
I'm not sure I even want to get into a counter-arhumentation, since he basically doesn't have an argumentation. It just seems too blatantly obvious to me that there is discrimination to even go into detail. I can if you really want me to though. |
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Sep 11 2006, 05:42 PM
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#3
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Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
Oh, don't get me wrong: I didn't question myself if SR is unequal, but I'm curious to know what other people think. That, and I wouldn't mind seeing more Dumpshockers there. ;) |
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Sep 11 2006, 05:53 PM
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#4
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
I agree with the poster. One of the things about the Night of Rage in Seattle was that when the original sourcebook was set, it had only been 11 years since the government was complicit in trying to commit genocide (this having come a generation after the U.S. government tried to commit genocide). As much as I hate (hate, hate, hate, fucking HATE) to say it, today of all days is a pretty good reminder of how deep the collective memory well tends to be for shit like that. Even if it was 31 years later like in Runner Havens, there are a lot of people who have not have forgotten. And that's Seattle. Yeah, I think it's something that is mentioned, but I can hardly see that in practice in SR as the years grow on--which is retarded. Metas have only been around 60 years and they're integrated? Shit. Sure. The ultra-liberal bias of the sourcebooks (especially since SR3) have only made it just... stupid to even pretend that it exists in SR's metaplot. Now, then. Being a racist asshole myself whose players tend to look down on metas, especially trogs, that's fine and dandy for my campaigns. But in the metaplot setting? Racism ain't there. Having the setting books comprised of characters who mostly think alike when it comes to that is just going to make that bullshit liberal PC bias much worse over time. |
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Sep 11 2006, 06:19 PM
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#5
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Discrimination, racism, unequality - that's all there in SR. Maybe not so much in the shadows, but Joe Average is likely to have prejudices against at least one metahuman group.
That adds to the gritty atmosphere of the universe - I can't imagine SR without a strong racism. Humanis and similar groups have a strong influence and most gangs are open only fpr a certain metagroup (or maybe two), like the Ancients. |
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Sep 11 2006, 06:34 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 112 Joined: 27-January 06 Member No.: 8,205 |
In my opinion is an unequal world; just like the real one we live in...
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Sep 11 2006, 06:46 PM
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#7
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Then again, come on, this is the same game where the NAN isn't on the brink of all out war with the UCAS for what happened in '64.
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Sep 11 2006, 07:05 PM
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#8
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Saying that SR isn't racist because a troll is a highly respected mage is like saying that the US South circa 1900 was not racist because George Washington Carver was a respected botanist or because Dr. Booker T. Washington was a respected educator.
Exceptional individuals are going to climb to the top. What everyone should look at is the distribution of wealth If there was no racism then the percentage of metas in each social and economic tier should be consistant with the percentage of metas in the general population. However, it is usually persented that this is not the case. Orks and trolls are far more common in the lower social tiers than they are in the general population and they are exceedingly rare in the higher social tiers. Most racism in SR, as it is in real life, is related to classism. People don't usually go out of their way to be racist in reality; hate groups are unpopular fringe organizations for a reason. Real racism presents itself in far more subtle ways. For example, a white business man in the 1900s might respond to a black man in an impeccably tailored $500 designer suit the exact same way he would respond to a white man in the same suit. However, if you put them both in dirty and ragged work clothes the black man suddenly receives far less respect than the white man. The same, I imagine, it true of metahumans. Integration is easy. All you need is to have the national guard shoot at your govenor. Equality of oppertunity is the difficult part. As for other forms of discrimination, I imagine that they still exist as well. They may not be legal and they may not be vogue but they would certainly still exist. Women can work their way up the megacorporate ladder but they would face less tolerance for leisure and perceived weakness. A man who wears jeans to work on casual Friday won't bat an eyelash but a woman who does so suddenly isn't as capable as she would be if she were wearing a suit. The same could be said of homosexuals. Sure, your marriage may be legal but you'll face more dandilon jokes than most elves and you'll be percieved as effiminant - better suited to work in the day care than the board room. Open lesbians, on the other hand, would be percieved as butch and better suited to working with a welding torch than with people. It would be possible to overcome these sterotypes in individual cases. However, it is only possible when people are treated as individuals. Job applications may be rejected on the basis of these sterotypes without so much as an interview and the police will be much more suspicious of a ork than they would be of a human. There is also the issue of the Anglo Reservations in the NAN. It is difficult to see racism in SR because the sourcebooks focus on the big picture. Sure, when slavery ends, segregation ends, and the death-camps close it appears to be a great stride towards equality, but these are only the first steps. Closing death-camps does not end racism. Just because Japan dosn't use Yomi Island anymore that doesn't suddenly make all metahumans equal and it certainly doesn't mean that everyon ein Japan loves metas. It simply means that they are shipped off to death-camps anymore. Also, don't forget that Humanis fielded a viable presidential canidate. That is the equivilant of an open KKK member being a viable predsidential canidate today. |
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Sep 11 2006, 07:28 PM
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#9
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
My, my. We certainly enjoy our buzzwords and catch-phrases, don't we? |
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Sep 11 2006, 07:33 PM
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#10
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
So what wouldn't be "bullshit liberal bias" in your book, SL, if integration is extreme?
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Sep 11 2006, 08:29 PM
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#11
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
I agree that the SR books are putting less and less emphasis on racism. It used to be more important in 2nd ed, and is slowly fading. BUT, every book does mention in some way discrimination, from there "not being a table available" in restaurants to orcs, while the human couple right behind you gets a table, to downright warfare between Sons of Sauron and Humanist. Let's not forget the ultra-racist japanese and japanacorps, who in SR wield much clout.
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Sep 11 2006, 08:51 PM
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#12
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
..letsee.
Just a few examples (SR3 basis) The TT - Being anything but an elf makes you at best, a third class citizen and that is inside the Portland Wall. Elsewhere in the Tir, you are Persona non Gratia. The Swiss Confederation - Metas are very restricted in their movements and must have special ID/Visas to even be in the country and then only allowed in for al limited amount of time. Austria, - Less blatant than the Swiss but racial inequality is still quite prevalent (Keep in mind who took over MediaSim). Japan - Definitely Meta Hostile. UK - Though not so widespread among the general British population, there are two segments where racism is quietly practised. First, The National Police are known to have deep racial bias. Second there is the Aristocracy where "Pillow in the face" syndrome is not uncommon if a child is born goblinised. |
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Sep 11 2006, 08:51 PM
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#13
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I'm kind of surprised that people are saying that racism is played down in Shadowrun. I'm not saying that they're wrong - they may well be right! It's just that I hadn't really noticed the lack of it. I started with 1st edition through 2nd. Skipped 3rd and never really noticed its decline. It used to be a big issue in 1st ed and I still consider it to be one in my version of the setting and I enjoy playing it up. I like, for example, having a swave and persuasive black man heading up the local humanis and calmly pointing out how orcs consistently score lower in SAT tests and statistically have a much higher incidence of violent crime (convictions, that is). As per usual, though - it's the melting pots of the "barrens" and poverty where it breaks down first. Poor humans soon realise that they have more in common with the poor orc than they do with rich humans. |
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Sep 11 2006, 08:54 PM
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#14
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
I've always noted it in the main books, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. It might not scream at you in the 3e BBB, but its there.
And like anything else in a game, it's the GM's choice/responsibility to either use or not use material from a sourcebook (or main book, as the case may be). |
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Sep 11 2006, 09:14 PM
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#15
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,010 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I'm going to have to agree. Shadowrun underplays the racism card, and underplays it badly. They do have random racism rules, but those indicate that 15/36ths of the population has no racism whatsoever and that a further 6/36ths of the population has minimal racism—most of those only against one race. Moreover, nowhere can I find any encouragement to make PCs racist.
It's not totally absent, and when brought up it can be pretty heavy, but a decent amount of the time it's horrid "durr trogs r stoopid" and "I wanna be an Elf, mommy!"—no real though has gone into much of the racism that we are shown. I've actually just recently started trying to increase the level of racism in my game—both metahuman-wise and ethnically, though let's face it, Shadowrun cities /are/ melting pots (so long as you aren't Native American! Or whatever the appropriate locality is). ~J |
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Sep 11 2006, 09:23 PM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
While I agree that racism is (or at least ought to be) in SR, the economic distribution argument is tough to quantify, since salary is indirectly tied to a person's mental abilities. Unlike real-world races and ethnicities, there are documented differences in the average mental abilities of the different SR races. Also, the shorter lifespans of these races means that they have less time to build up seniority over their co-workers. I guess that dwarves having lower lifestyles than humans would imply something, though. If anything, their higher willpower (perseverence) and somewhat longer lifespans should result in them getting higher up the corp ladder than the 'breeders'. Stupid question: would it be racist to believe that orks and trolls (in general - not applied to any particular person) are stupider than humans? Because we know OOC that this is actually true. |
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Sep 11 2006, 09:38 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
You think that's unlike real-world races and ethnicities? Wow. Anyway, the SR sourcebooks and shadowtalk does seem to involve less focus on racism than in the very old days. Even when they touch on it (Orxploitation in SOTA 2064), it's pretty clinical and passionless. It would be helpful to see respected regulars show off their racism in the shadowtalk, or tell anecdotes about "someone they know." |
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Sep 11 2006, 09:57 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 153 Joined: 7-November 04 Member No.: 6,811 |
As Slithery D suggested... There's "documented evidence" that different minorities -- including African-Americans -- as a population have a lower mean than the total population on IQ tests. There's a lot of very legitimate reasons for this, from statistical anomalies to social/cultural issues that have nothing to do with someone's raw intelligence. But it is there, and plenty of people have interpreted it as ammo for racism. SR would be no different. Even a troll can have a higher than average Logic; this kind of exceptional person and hegemonic leak is the sort of thing that busts popular thinking open wide. If a troll can be smarter than average, who's to say that a troll Steven Hawking isn't going to happen someday? Only the rules, and the characters don't own a copy. |
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Sep 12 2006, 12:15 AM
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#19
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Okay. Where would you set the arbitrary number? I'm surprised that there are mechanics for it at all. In my opinion, you should mention it in the story and leave it up to each GM to implement as he or she sees fit. Mention it being rampant, mention it being exexistentmention it being sparse? That's up to the writers of the metaplot and fluff (canon metaplot would suggest rampant tapering to prevalent, by my read).
Okay. But by the same token, nowhere can I find encouragement to make the PCs Jewish, or lesbian, or an ally-spirit-fucking lunatic. But those characters exist, and are played. All without official encouragement. Indeed, I would think that any encouragement to play anything being written into the rules would be a bad idea in general, as it would create an imbalance in the system (and by ininferencethe game world).
Are you speaking of the source material, or your own experience playing SR? As to increasing it in your game, that's exactly my point. You didn't need rules, or a sourcebook called "The Neo-Anarchist's guide to Being a Racist Asshole" to do it, you simply made the choice to make that a more predominant feature of your game. Its in the books. You just have to choose how you will use it. |
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Sep 12 2006, 01:16 AM
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#20
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
It would be because it is only true on the high end. It is just as easy for a troll to purchase 4 INT as it is for a human to do the same. Most characters are going to have INT in the 2-4 range regardless of race and INT 1 trolls are going to be about as common an INT 1 humans. Trolls only have difficulty at the high end. A INT 6 troll is going to be about as common as an INT 7-8 human and an INT 7 troll is aboout equivilant to an INT 9-10 human. Still, INT 7 humans are rare enough and INT 9 would put Einstein to shame. The fact that there are no trolls in this tier has no bearing on their mode intelligence. |
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Sep 12 2006, 02:32 AM
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#21
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,010 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Source material (including novels). Please give me enough credit to not bring "playing experience" into a discussion on canon Shadowrun.
I probably wouldn't set a number for it, but I'd probably top out zero-racism at 35% of the population, if that. The majority should be, IMO, low-racism (where "low" does not mean "low or zero").
I'm not so much surprised, but I agree that they're a mediocre idea at best. Nevertheless, it can give us a mathematical and precise breakdown of how frequently the PCs should, by the creators' standards, encounter racism and how virulent (and how widely or narrowly targeted) that racism will be.
But are any of those qualities supposed to be
? That which is common in the gameworld but not an obvious character choice should be encouraged in the book, IMO—otherwise you end up with a lot of it shoved under the rug because people aren't really comfortable touching it without some prompting.
So do you think it's appropriate that the players are encouraged to play criminals for hire? If Shadowrun was a generic rules system, or even a generic setting, we'd probably see a lot fewer Shadowrunners as PCs. That they flat-out encouraged a path that not everyone might have felt comfortable with without prompting has resulted in, in my not-so-humble opinion, a significantly stronger game.
Yes. After years of doing it, heretical as it may be to express this view, wrong. Had NAGBRA come out, I might have been spared years of imposing my personal moral views on my characters and gameworld. (I'm not suggesting there's a right and a wrong way to roleplay—well, not beyond "are the participants getting enough out of it to make it worthwhile". I am, however, suggesting that there is a right and a wrong way to play Shadowrun, which is an entirely different thing.) ~J |
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Sep 12 2006, 02:53 AM
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#22
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
So you don't think that leaving the level of racism in a game up to the end user, the players that want a game that they can enjoy, which may or may not mean racism plays a major part, is the best way to handle it? I don't mean to sound as though I'm putting words in your mouth, but that's what I'm getting. I have a feeling that there are probably players out there that, even though they're playing "seasoned criminals" would be uncomfortable playing with racism. It's precisely the fact that there are people out there that aren't really comfortable touching it without some prompting that makes me think that it is handled well in the game material. Now, you may think that people need to confront these kinds of issues head on, and I tend to agree on that. But in a game, where the point is for everyone to have fun, I don't think shoving such a heady topic down anyone's throats is the right answer.
Yes, in that it's arguably the central theme of the game. I don't think that playing out the racism that exists in the world should be a major focus within the rules. All I'm saying is that I think that the way it's currently handled is the best all-around solution, making room for both the gamers that want to and can handle having such things as major elements of their game, the gamers that want it as an aspect of the world but don't really want to tackle it in character as much, and the gamers that would prefer not to use that aspect of the world in their games. It comes back to there being no real "true" way to run a role playing game, I guess. The "right" way is the way that's right for the group/players/etc. I think the current setup allows for that.
I don't think it is. I think that the right way to play any game is the way that is the most fun for all involved. This is my view looking out, mind you. Looking in, I have a way that I prefer my Shadowrun to be, of course. I run my games that way, and my way of running evolves and changes every time I do it. As long as both my players and myself are enjoying it, it's being run correctly. The rules and the fluff are there to provide a base and inspiration. Mix, add, and remove to taste. Like muffins. Shadowrun muffins. That all said, sometimes I think to myself, as I'm participating in these threads, that if we were all to get together and just play a game of SR, a lot of this stuff wouldn't ever even come up. It's when we get to discussing theory and philosophy that we exhibit and notice differences over similarities. Short version: you're an idiot and you're completely wrong, but I'll still game with you. ;) :D (Totally kidding on that last bit. No seriousness at all. Just struck me as funny. I actually really like getting your take on stuff. No, I'm not coming onto you. /disclaimer) |
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Sep 12 2006, 04:22 AM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
Has anyone else become uncomfortable in a gaming session when one of the players really makes a big deal of playing up his character's racist (anti-troll/ork/whatever) tendancies, and you worried that it was alienating other [in RL minority] players?
I know - SR racism does not equal real life racism, and orks and trolls are not metaphors for people with different-colored skin. But it always made me uncomfortable when one of my cracker gamers started ranting about "those damn sub-human trogs good fer nuthin but selling beetles [BTLs] and playing ball...pushing out litters of little sub-human babies and draging down the sprawl for the rest of us..." Just substitute a couple slang words here and there, and you'd have the script for a KKK rally... For this reason, I never really encouraged it too much. |
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Sep 12 2006, 04:25 AM
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#24
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
I'm running a Black Sun cell, so take a wild fucking guess.
Looking at books like Loose Alliances and the way Humanis, etc. is always treated, I'd say that it is in fact the exact opposite--that racists are actively discouraged. The Game Information for that book is the most telling of all of exactly where the bias lies. So, yeah, I'm as shocked to find racism downplayed in SR as the captain was to find out gambling was occurring at Rick's.
But they are tolerated. When was the last time in any sourcebook did you see a racist not treated like either an inbred redneck idiot, or a Brackhaven-like manipulative, scheming asshole who is otherwise completely evil.
Right. And we all know no criminals anywhere are racist, sexist, or otherwise prejudiced. They're all liberal progressives. Sure. Yet, gee, I'd easily peg the population of professional criminals who post in the sourcebooks or "write" the articles or are ever written about fall into that category at 95% minimum. |
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Sep 12 2006, 04:55 AM
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#25
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Since first edition, Humanis has been treated like a bunch of bumbling rednecks, the Tirs have been so openly racist that they're openly bashed for it, everyone knows Lone Star hates orks (so Lone Star's bad!), etc, etc.
They make a point of showing racism, sure. But it's always out in the open, the racists are always ridiculous, everyone knows who the racists are, they're always bumbling idiots, etc. Racisms exists, but it exists in the same way racisms was real in Oh Brother, Where Art Thou, or something. It's a bumbling, hapless, almost-comic racism, as written. You've got to work to make it scary, or realistic, or dark, or violent. |
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