After this post on theRPGsite, I was wondering what's the opinion here. So, what do you think?

Uh, I don't know who that guy is, but obviously he doesn't like SR much. How this post got you thinking about if SR is "really" unequal is a bit mystifying.

I'm not sure I even want to get into a counter-arhumentation, since he basically doesn't have an argumentation. It just seems too blatantly obvious to me that there is discrimination to even go into detail. I can if you really want me to though.

Discrimination, racism, unequality - that's all there in SR. Maybe not so much in the shadows, but Joe Average is likely to have prejudices against at least one metahuman group.
That adds to the gritty atmosphere of the universe - I can't imagine SR without a strong racism.

Humanis and similar groups have a strong influence and most gangs are open only fpr a certain metagroup (or maybe two), like the Ancients.

In my opinion is an unequal world; just like the real one we live in...

Then again, come on, this is the same game where the NAN isn't on the brink of all out war with the UCAS for what happened in '64.

Saying that SR isn't racist because a troll is a highly respected mage is like saying that the US South circa 1900 was not racist because George Washington Carver was a respected botanist or because Dr. Booker T. Washington was a respected educator.
Exceptional individuals are going to climb to the top.

What everyone should look at is the distribution of wealth If there was no racism then the percentage of metas in each social and economic tier should be consistant with the percentage of metas in the general population. However, it is usually persented that this is not the case. Orks and trolls are far more common in the lower social tiers than they are in the general population and they are exceedingly rare in the higher social tiers.
Most racism in SR, as it is in real life, is related to classism. People don't usually go out of their way to be racist in reality; hate groups are unpopular fringe organizations for a reason. Real racism presents itself in far more subtle ways. For example, a white business man in the 1900s might respond to a black man in an impeccably tailored $500 designer suit the exact same way he would respond to a white man in the same suit. However, if you put them both in dirty and ragged work clothes the black man suddenly receives far less respect than the white man.

The same, I imagine, it true of metahumans. Integration is easy. All you need is to have the national guard shoot at your govenor. Equality of oppertunity is the difficult part.
As for other forms of discrimination, I imagine that they still exist as well. They may not be legal and they may not be vogue but they would certainly still exist. Women can work their way up the megacorporate ladder but they would face less tolerance for leisure and perceived weakness. A man who wears jeans to work on casual Friday won't bat an eyelash but a woman who does so suddenly isn't as capable as she would be if she were wearing a suit. The same could be said of homosexuals. Sure, your marriage may be legal but you'll face more dandilon jokes than most elves and you'll be percieved as effiminant - better suited to work in the day care than the board room. Open lesbians, on the other hand, would be percieved as butch and better suited to working with a welding torch than with people.

It would be possible to overcome these sterotypes in individual cases. However, it is only possible when people are treated as individuals. Job applications may be rejected on the basis of these sterotypes without so much as an interview and the police will be much more suspicious of a ork than they would be of a human.

There is also the issue of the Anglo Reservations in the NAN.

It is difficult to see racism in SR because the sourcebooks focus on the big picture. Sure, when slavery ends, segregation ends, and the death-camps close it appears to be a great stride towards equality, but these are only the first steps. Closing death-camps does not end racism. Just because Japan dosn't use Yomi Island anymore that doesn't suddenly make all metahumans equal and it certainly doesn't mean that everyon ein Japan loves metas. It simply means that they are shipped off to death-camps anymore.

Also, don't forget that Humanis fielded a viable presidential canidate. That is the equivilant of an open KKK member being a viable predsidential canidate today.

So what wouldn't be "bullshit liberal bias" in your book, SL, if integration is extreme?

I agree that the SR books are putting less and less emphasis on racism. It used to be more important in 2nd ed, and is slowly fading. BUT, every book does mention in some way discrimination, from there "not being a table available" in restaurants to orcs, while the human couple right behind you gets a table, to downright warfare between Sons of Sauron and Humanist. Let's not forget the ultra-racist japanese and japanacorps, who in SR wield much clout.

..letsee.

Just a few examples (SR3 basis)

The TT - Being anything but an elf makes you at best, a third class citizen and that is inside the Portland Wall. Elsewhere in the Tir, you are Persona non Gratia.

The Swiss Confederation - Metas are very restricted in their movements and must have special ID/Visas to even be in the country and then only allowed in for al limited amount of time.

Austria, - Less blatant than the Swiss but racial inequality is still quite prevalent (Keep in mind who took over MediaSim).

Japan - Definitely Meta Hostile.

UK - Though not so widespread among the general British population, there are two segments where racism is quietly practised. First, The National Police are known to have deep racial bias. Second there is the Aristocracy where "Pillow in the face" syndrome is not uncommon if a child is born goblinised.

I'm kind of surprised that people are saying that racism is played down in Shadowrun. I'm not saying that they're wrong - they may well be right! It's just that I hadn't really noticed the lack of it. I started with 1st edition through 2nd. Skipped 3rd and never really noticed its decline. It used to be a big issue in 1st ed and I still consider it to be one in my version of the setting and I enjoy playing it up. I like, for example, having a swave and persuasive black man heading up the local humanis and calmly pointing out how orcs consistently score lower in SAT tests and statistically have a much higher incidence of violent crime (convictions, that is).

As per usual, though - it's the melting pots of the "barrens" and poverty where it breaks down first. Poor humans soon realise that they have more in common with the poor orc than they do with rich humans.

I've always noted it in the main books, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. It might not scream at you in the 3e BBB, but its there.

And like anything else in a game, it's the GM's choice/responsibility to either use or not use material from a sourcebook (or main book, as the case may be).

I'm going to have to agree. Shadowrun underplays the racism card, and underplays it badly. They do have random racism rules, but those indicate that 15/36ths of the population has no racism whatsoever and that a further 6/36ths of the population has minimal racism—most of those only against one race. Moreover, nowhere can I find any encouragement to make PCs racist.

It's not totally absent, and when brought up it can be pretty heavy, but a decent amount of the time it's horrid "durr trogs r stoopid" and "I wanna be an Elf, mommy!"—no real though has gone into much of the racism that we are shown.

I've actually just recently started trying to increase the level of racism in my game—both metahuman-wise and ethnically, though let's face it, Shadowrun cities /are/ melting pots (so long as you aren't Native American! Or whatever the appropriate locality is).

~J

Has anyone else become uncomfortable in a gaming session when one of the players really makes a big deal of playing up his character's racist (anti-troll/ork/whatever) tendancies, and you worried that it was alienating other [in RL minority] players?

I know - SR racism does not equal real life racism, and orks and trolls are not metaphors for people with different-colored skin. But it always made me uncomfortable when one of my cracker gamers started ranting about "those damn sub-human trogs good fer nuthin but selling beetles [BTLs] and playing ball...pushing out litters of little sub-human babies and draging down the sprawl for the rest of us..." Just substitute a couple slang words here and there, and you'd have the script for a KKK rally... For this reason, I never really encouraged it too much.

Since first edition, Humanis has been treated like a bunch of bumbling rednecks, the Tirs have been so openly racist that they're openly bashed for it, everyone knows Lone Star hates orks (so Lone Star's bad!), etc, etc.

They make a point of showing racism, sure. But it's always out in the open, the racists are always ridiculous, everyone knows who the racists are, they're always bumbling idiots, etc. Racisms exists, but it exists in the same way racisms was real in Oh Brother, Where Art Thou, or something. It's a bumbling, hapless, almost-comic racism, as written. You've got to work to make it scary, or realistic, or dark, or violent.

I would say the same sort of comic, facile simplicity characterizes much of the game beyond its handling of racism.

i agree with the poster. his point isn't that there's no discrimination against metahumans, it's that there's no meaningful discrimination against metahumans. playing someone with anti-metahuman attitudes is not presented as a desirable character option. 99% of the in-character personas display no metahuman bias at all, and the ones that do are written in such a way that they come off as ignorant redneck assholes or stiff-necked traditionalists--caricatures, not living, breathing personalities.

when was the last time one of you saw a Humanis member played as anything but a Humanis member first and foremost? in other words, have you run into many PCs or NPCs who are card-carrying members of an anti-metahuman group, but whose entire personality doesn't revolve around their anti-meta attitudes? when was the last time a human PC was able to buy a piece of gear, but a troll PC was stonewalled? when was the last time only the elf PC was allowed into the elf-only bar where the team's contact was supposed to meet them? when was the last time metatype mattered, in your game, in any capacity beyond their statblocks?

and this isn't really your fault, per se. it's the way the game is presented. Captain Chaos, Fastjack, Findler-Man, Connie Connoisseur, Picador, SPD--find me one poster in any of the sourcebooks who displays any level of bigotry against metahumans, but isn't presented as being a shitstain.

I had a longer post ready, and I may post it later, but first I wanted to ask:

Am I the only one that sees the 400 pound white gorilla in the room?

hey, it's a glandular problem!

edit: i see a few of them, assuming that gorilla = elephant. which one are you talking about?

The one with its arm sticking out at about a 45 degree angle to the floor, palm downward, wearing that funny cross on its sleeve.

And if you mix the animals, they're harder to miss.

nazis? nazis are 99% of the problem. they make things too simple; nazis take things straight from bigotry to genocide. do not pass go, do not collect complex social issues. they're bad guys, pure and simple--kinda the way caricatures are pure and simple. as soon as you equate anti-metahuman bigotry with nazis, you lose any chance of having an interesting character flaw.

Eidolon -- do you actually have something to say, or are you just going to keep dancing around talking about pale monkey Nazis, or something? I'm curious as to exactly what it is you think you're hinting at so cleverly.

Not my point. A good point, but not my point.

then... what is? you can't say "that's not my point" without going on to describe what your point actually is. being all obscure does nothing to aid conversation.

Apologies, but I'm not sure I want to take the overall conversation in that direction if it wasn't going to end up there anyway. Also, there's the possibility that I'm reading more than what is there. It's late and I'm tired.

a'ight.

so, yeah. i agree with the guys who say that racism in SR is trite and one-dimensional. trite and one-dimensional racism isn't racism at all, in the context of presenting a game world. racism is, by definition, a divisive issue. how divisive is it to have five hundred shadowposters over more than a decade standing arm-in-arm, singing En Vogue's Free Your Mind? (yeah, En Vogue, suckers, i went there!)

Upon reflection, it might seem like there are some of us in the conversation who are arguing racism is good, or it's healthy to be a racist, or, "man, I sure wish more SR characters were racists because it's cool," or what have you. Speaking purely for myself, I can understand where you might get that notion, but it is untrue. I just would prefer to see racism done well than done poorly -- when the only racism this gritty street-level game sees is the comedy hour hah-hah pathetic redneck racism (or the stick-up-his-ass Elven superiority hah-hah pathetic caricature racism), it detracts from the seriousness of an ongoing human problem.

When people are told racism is pathetic, funny, and nothing to really worry about except for a few fringe wacko's (who you can spot a mile away), people might start to believe that. Now, I understand that for some people and some people's games, that's as much as they want of it -- they might not like serious issues, they might like a more light hearted game, they don't care about racism in their action movie die-rolling contests.

But if you're in a game that's run a little more darkly, a little more dirtily, and that's a little more likely to roll up it's sleeves and run into shit like organlegging, kidnapping/prostitution/bunraku rings, terrorism, drug and BTL peddling... well, racism is another one of those ugly things that might come up, and might just be a little more serious (and prevalent) than the cartoonish redneck Humanis with the chewing tobacco and the pick-up truck.

So, well, yeah. The reason some I'm calling out for more (or at least more serious) racism in your average game isn't because, y'know, I dig racism or whatever. It's that I think it should be presented in such a manner so as to allow it to be taken seriously, handled realistically, and to give us one more tool to show us that the Shadowrun future sucks donkey balls to live in, instead of being presented to us as a cool place to be. As written, the only racists you ever run into are the black-wearing moustache-twirling villain types, that everyone can see from a mile away, and everyone (even the most hard-hearted professional killers) laughs at behind their back. That's kind of silly.

i'm gonna double-post, which i don't normally do, because this post is in a bit of a different vein from the previous one. i'm going to show an example of a point at which SR could have shown some real gritty, dirty racism, and chose instead to avoid the issue in favor of more black-and-white, cut-and-dried cartoon comedy: SURGE.

for once, i'm not talking about that stupid catgirl. i'm talking about the part where they show the anti-SURGE hysteria that's supposed to have sprung up around this phenomenon. let's see: on page 27, Cap deletes 0.8Mp of an anti-SURGEling rant; the portion that remained packs more stereotypes (stupidity, herdthink, Tourettes-like inability to speak without spewing epithets) into one and a half sentences than most actual bigots find it seemly to fit into a paragraph. on page 31, Cap introduces the opposition view as "loathsome and despicable", and the only people who post in that section do so with an obvious anti-Humanis bent.

after that, we've got SURGE clubs and catgirls. the entire section presents only two possible views of SURGE: you either embrace it, and associate yourself with intelligent, modern people; or you reject it, and associate yourself with either uneducated morons or stiff-necked, intractable traditionalists.

who picked the stiff-necked, intractable traditionalists in their character designs? raise your hands. nobody? none? color me surprised.

I've known James long enough to be convinced he's not really much of a racist, no matter what he says -- he hates everyone, equally. Also, "running a Black Sun cell" isn't some crazy "I'm a skinhead terrorist" brag. He's running a game for a Black Sun (SR4 elven supremacist group) terrorist, is all. No need for google; it's a Shadowrun thing, not a RL thing.

Also, SlitheryD never said anything about intellectual potential, only "average mental ability," a statement that's purely factual truth. Certain racial/ethnic groups score higher (or, rather, lower) than other certain racial/ethnic groups on tests designed to measure that sort of thing. It's not a racist statement, it's just a statement; people still get antsy when you point it out, but the statement in and of itself isn't offensive, merely factual. Conskill explained it in a bit more detail.

EDIT

I'm surprised Saito hasn't been mentioned at all.

I do agree on some aspects and disagree on others. On one hand, there absolutely has been a leveling of the playing field a bit over time in SR. Afterall, if you look at the early editions of SR, how many metahuman Big Ten executives were there? Aside from Lofwyr. Now we have ork CEOs, dwarven major shareholders, free spirit executives, etc. This isn't really indicative of there being less racism, but more metahumans are breaking through the glass ceiling.

On the other hand, I dealt specifically with issues of racism when I wrote Hong Kong for Runner Havens. Hong Kong's racism definitely exists, though not down the normal human vs. metahuman lines familiar in other places. In Hong Kong it is natives vs. foreigners, encouraged by the refugee/immigrant crisis.

Stephen J Gould's argument was that intelligent tests themselves were culturally biased: structured to test only certain culturally preconceived notions of certain kinds of intelligence. Indeed I guess the whole concept of IQ tests may seem strange to many- dare I say it more enlightened- cultures. But this is straying off topic.