I'm used to that, so I hardly see the problem there.

One thing that should be mentioned is that racism in SR should be far, far more justifiable than our racism.

The simple fact is that a troll or ork is more physically dangerous and intimidating than you if you're a human. Do you think they won't take advantage of that growing up as punks on the street or even on the schoolyard playground to bully more effectively than ever? Do you think an ork who gets in a fender bender with a human and gets enraged won't use his superior size and ability in a fight to get even more in your face and scare you into backing off? Do you think human might resent this and want to get the fuckers back because of bad things they've experienced? It's not unreasonable to fear what a mage can do you to; not much less that troll walking past you on a dark street. Sure, he's probably not going to mug you, but could you do a single damn thing about it if he decided to? Won't you resent that?

And elves! They've taken over two nations and made them, to varying degrees, de jure outposts of entrenched elven superiority. You've heard rumors they took over Ireland by setting up fake scandals and engaging in terrorism. You know Tir Tairngire up and seceded from Salish-Shidhe for no great reasons based on freedom or persecution. And those Manitou in the Algonkian Council tried the same thing! What might they be planning next? Why are they all clustering in [city or region X]? Is that elf working for the UCAS FBI really loyal to his country of citizenship? Or is he passing secrets on to Tir Tairngire, believing (or not) that doing so isn't really harmful to his nominal country? Take the worst examples of paranoia over Israel and American Jewish "dual loyalties" and multiply by ten.

But at least we humans have the dwarves to look down on. Silly shorties, they can't hurt me much. Sure, they're stronger, but I can always run away and bring back a lynch mob to hunt them down before they get away. Let's all reserve our amused condescension for the dwarves, mostly harmless metas that don't invite our envy for being more beautiful (or treacherous). I'm sure we'll get along famously.

All of that is considerably different from today's racism. SR's is based on factual fears with a real basis. It's based on far bigger "superficial" differences than anything today. Not only should racism be much more prevalent, it should be harder to argue that it is wrong in its less virulent forms. Now that's some dark atmosphere!

Wow, good catch. See also vampires. Cultural popular with a small segment of the population, feared by most, sought out by some for immorality...

Maybe Quebec is the most enlightened NA nation.

So write one. Play one. Do you need the books to spoon feed you every happening in the world? Of course not, but that's my point.

aboriginal australians is the main one i've seen reference to.

Right, but it's not just ignorance (or whatever) in SR. Trolls are different than humans, Orks are different from humans, Ghouls (especially) are different from humans. There's statistical proof of it. We know, OOC, that Orks on average are less intelligent and more physically powerful than humans. It's not a stereotype, it's a fact. Ghouls aren't just the AIDS victims of the 2060's -- they're clawed, fanged, astrally active, and they eat human flesh.

The metaracial differences in SR are very, very, real. Everyone who's ever even just glanced at the character creation chapter knows that, which means folks in-game have probably figured it out by now, too.

I wouldn't argue about the ghouls. I draw the line on happy-fuzzies well before we get to "considers me dinner." I'm also not arguing that there isn't quantifible differences between the metatypes -- obviously, we all have the same rulebook (plus or minus an edition). I will argue two things, though:

1) While racism in SR can be attributed to "real" differences, racism in real life also began with what was perceived to be real differences ("The natives? They're not humans, they're animals."). There is no real difference of motive between a Humanis dweeb being afraid of the big bad ork, and a southern dweeb in the Reconstruction era being afraid of a burly African-American.

2) We have a copy of the Shadowrun sourcebook, but they do not. Orks may certainly have a lower average tested IQ as a population, but -- as we have already covered -- so do some minorities in real life. We on average don't assume there is racial superiority at work in those scores, I doubt the liberal mainstream in SR is going to assume that's at play either.

Edit: To expand on that last point a bit. One thing to keep in mind about the shape of SR racism, is that 20th century racism is also going to be part of the history that informs them about the topic. The culture of the UCAS at this point has been tangling with racism in various forms for centuries, from slavery to the civil rights movement to the Amerindian concentration camps. There's a ton of times racism has come to play in the history of this setting where the final result is "Uh, whoops, guess we shouldn't have done that!"

The culture of the UCAS didn't just fall off a turnip truck when Goblinzation happened. Once past the shock and horror, I certainly can imagine them remembering and applying the old lessons, even when they don't quite fit (such as assuming Ork IQ scores aren't caused by a biological deficit).

They don't need a copy of the Shadowrun sourcebook to notice that almost every ork in the world is dumber, stronger, and tougher than almost every human in the world. In much the same fashion they don't need a copy of the sourcebook to differentiate between adept, chromed, and unaugmented athletes, I don't think they need to "break the fourth wall" to realize trolls are, as a rule, stronger than humans, with dermal deposits on their skin, horns, disproportionately long arms, gestates for longer than a human, ages at a radically different rate, has entirely different skull structures, etc, etc.

We're not talking about something as trivial as skin pigmentation varying a shade or two; we're about Homo Sapien Nobilis and Robustus (and the others, that I can never remember). Actual different scientific classifications of humanity, based upon metatype, and generally accepted as such by the media, the scientific community, the government, etc. These aren't trends that can be written off by upbringing, or society, or what-have-you. A 1 or 2 point difference in a stat that generally only goes from 1-to-6 isn't a coincidence, nevermind a 3 or 4 point difference.

Orks are different than Elves, Trolls are different than Dwarves, and they all are different from humans. It's not a matter of perception, or social barriers -- it's an actual biological difference that will never, ever, go away. If you take a bunch of blacks and a bunch of whites and a bunch of hispanics and a bunch of asians and a bunch of everyone-else, and leave them alone on an island with some viagra and nice champagne for a couple dozen generations, you'll end up with some kind-of-darkly-skin-toned human beings with maybe almond-shaped eyes, when all's said and done. The minor physical difference between "races" nowadays can all be smooshed together in a melting pot, and go away; to me, that's proof they're not all that big a deal.

If you take a bunch of humans, Dwarves, Orks, Elves, and Trolls, and put them on that same island, with that same viagra and champagne? In a couple hundred years, you'll come across a larger Ork population than any other (given their breeding rate), you'll come across those original Elves (along with their kids and grandkids and great grandkids), you'll come across a few Dwarves, Trolls, humans, etc. They won't "breed into" one another, even if they do have sex -- there's no half elves in Shadowrun, as people like to say. You're born Elf or human, Ork or Troll. They won't meld together. They won't breed into one big pointy-eared, tusked, horned, short-but-tall-but-squat-but-average (with a good Edge AND Reaction AND Charisma AND Strength, etc) mix of one big happy family.

They're different, biologically, in quite a few more ways than something as negligible as skin tone. Which, to me, lends at least some credence to Shadowrun's racists (compared, at any rate, to the racists of today, and yesterday).

Yet again, I do not question that there is a distinct difference between the metatypes, but I do think you are overlooking the importance of how twisted perception can become in our culture; and how important perception is in a socio-cultural issue.

If there is a conflict between your perception of reality and the true state of reality, you will act based on the perception of reality. In this case, it doesn't matter that real life is due to erronous perception and Shadowrun is due to "real" differences. Racism is not an objective force, it's something that is transmitted culturally and happens within your worldview: there is no change in a subject's behavior between the perception of a flaw and the reality of a flaw.

I don't ask you to go any further than that, because everything I've argued sits on that point.

If perception is just as important as the objective fact /w racism, then there is little to no difference between the roots of racism depicted in SR and the roots of racism in real life.

If perception is just as important as the objective fact /w racism, then racial relations in SR become far more complex. The lessons of the past centuries will need to be unlearned, and hegemonic leaks will hopelessly confuse the issue (try holding the "Orks are less intelligent" line during the media blitz surrounding the first Ork Ph.D).

Conskill, the perception of orks and trolls is that they're big, dumb people. or not-people, depending on how far you take it. part of that comes from the fact that they are, indeed, big and dumb. another part comes from the fact that they look big and dumb. their speech is flat and uninflected because of their tusks, so they even sound dumb. i don't see public perception somehow magically turning around and viewing orks and trolls as being intelligent and quick-witted, or even on par with sapiens sapien.

I understand that perception and objective fact aren't always the same -- I think my overall point is that here, in real life, we've got racism almost solely as a result of perception rather than objective fact. We've got people with the tiniest little glimmer of a stereotype to worth with, that turn it into honest and genuine racial profiling, hatred, what-have-you. Call today's racism 99% perception, 1% fact, then, maybe?

In Shadowrun, racism is...what? 50/50? In a reality, in the future of our timeline, there really is a realistic basis for racists. There really are those differences. There really are different numbers of teeth and shapes of skulls ("Trolls look like cavemen"), and different gestation periods ("Dwarf bitches hold their runts too long), different aging cycles ("Wallace is never going to retire, the dandelion eating asshole, how am I supposed to get a promotion?!", numbers of children born ("Orks breed like the rats they are"), and all that. There's never going to be a dwarven olympic sprinter that can hold a torch to the best elven sprinters in the world, the way a black dude kicked ass in the olympics. There's never going to be a trollish Einstein that'll be as smart as the smartest possible humans. Elven movie stars might look real badass, but the buffest elf in the world will never win a globe-spanning powerlifting contest, if the world's buffest troll signs up, too. Nowadays, it's just stereotypes. In Shadowrun, it's truth.

In real life, people's racist perceptions are generally based on little-or-nothing. Ignorance, combined with some tiny little spark of a reason to dislike a race, can turn into hatred given time. It's, as you say, Conskill, mostly perception, not reality, though.

So take that same human habit for racism and hatred, and fast-forward it to a time when there really fucking is a real-life, grounded, honest, difference between the races.

That hatred should positively skyrocket. If it only takes 1% "reality" to cause all of today's racism, imagine how splintered and hatefull a future would be where there's 10% "reality" to fuel hatred, or 50%, or 75%. Look at the backlash towards the Hispanic community over our border problems today -- now just imagine how it must feel for your average Latino after Aztlan takes away a chunk of Texas, by force. And that little example's still just a "within the human race" one that popped into my head (still focused on nothing larger than skin tone differences, and someone's last name).

So now think about just how many people would have a reason to hate Elves, given their nation-founding ("I had family in Portland!), the jealousy they'd inspire day to day ("Cindy only got that job for her looks!), their longevity ("Why did my dad have to get old and die, when your dad doesn't?!").

Racism should be fucking everywhere in Shadowrun -- because there actually are (for a change of pace) real, honest, tangible, reasons for it.

Since it's approaching 3am over here, I'll concede the point and bow out for now. So far this thread has been a surprisingly good read, and a pleasure to talk in.

I have had this discussion with some of my players in the past (Ork players have had some rather bad run-in's with Lone Star in some of my games). The fact is that if you go by first through third ed., then orks and trolls get the shaft not just in terms of social pressure, but also due to genetics. In 1-3 (I have not gone through the char gen for 4th yet to know for sure the way I did/do for 1-3) the average attribute for a human was three. The average attribute for a meta-human was three plus or minus their racial modifiers. So the average troll on the street had an intelligence of one. And, conversely, the average human could not compete with them physically. Elves and Dwarves, in turn, on average, were superior to humans, not just in their biology, but also in the fact that they were gifted with extra long lifespans.

Now, despite the claims of some rather dubious researchers, racial differences in RL can all be explained by segregation by race and the attending effects of poverty. Children of all ethnic groups who are raised in integrated communities preform statistically exactly the same as everyone else in their community (that is in their "economic bracket").

The problem is that that would clearly not be the case in Shadowrun (again in 1-3 at least, not sure about 4). The average NPC troll on the street is dumb as bricks-and although that does not warrant discrimination, just as being stupid now does not warrant discrimination, it is also a bit off base to describe racial prejudice in Shadowrun as being a view without any supporting evidence-and not the made up creative use of data manipulation popular with bigots today.

If FASA/Wizkids really wanted to have a game where this was confronted in a way that would be at all analogous to our own social problems, they should not have had the different races have variations in mental ability.

End of the day however, there is no equality in shadowrun because in any group that you put Orks and Trolls into, they are not going to be as smart as the people that they work with and compete against. So, yes, an Ork doctor may well be smarter and more well educated than a human dock worker-however, he will not be as smart as a human doctor. Nor will an ork dock worker be as smart as a human dock worker. And people are going to notice, and it is going to be a problem. Stand-outs do nothing to help with this situation. Yes, it is the case that the Smartest Ork doctors are going to be smarter that the mid-range and below human doctors. But there are going to be way less Orks in the ranges of the elite of their profession, and they will not be represented at all at the very top of the profession. It really is just a crappy situation all around.

AFE

Okay. Here's a slightly different angle on the question that might clarify people's point of view. Who has used racism in their game and how? Has anyone explored it to a significant degree?

It might be quite interesting to make players victims of racist attitudes if they've never experienced it. Role-playing is a chance to step into someone else's skin, after all. I don't think personally, it's something I'd enjoy making a big issue in my game, though. Unlike organlegging, it's more likely to stir real feelings rather than faux-I'm-just-roleplaying-feelings that most things do.

On an unrelated note as someone new(ish) to the boards. I wrote all that Shadowtalk example earlier. Would it be appropriate to post it in the In-Character section of Dumpshock?

Well, we had that discussion. But DS hasn't.

it's pretty obvious.

No kidding.

The scary part is that I hear that being sung to the tune of "Lola"...

sorry, knasser, i'd meant to read that earlier, but i forgot. that's some good stuff, closer to what i'm talking about. there were some holes in OMFWOG's counterpoints that i'd have liked to see someone point out (orks aren't going to stop having octuplets just because they get an education, for instance), but overall it was a really good read.

I'll try to write up some examples when I have the time and can get into the right character (it's hard, at least for me, I'll admit that up front), but one simple example is just something like a poster using an off-hand metatype slur and then having someone flame him for being a typist… and then have that flame get mostly deleted by Captain (or his replacement, I guess, since SR4's where the new material's being written) with a "keep it civil" message.

~J