Is Shadowrun an unequal world?, Discrimination, and not just metahuman. Options

[SL James]

[Demonseed Elite]

[SL James]

I'm used to that, so I hardly see the problem there.

[Slithery D]

One thing that should be mentioned is that racism in SR should be far, far more justifiable than our racism.

The simple fact is that a troll or ork is more physically dangerous and intimidating than you if you're a human. Do you think they won't take advantage of that growing up as punks on the street or even on the schoolyard playground to bully more effectively than ever? Do you think an ork who gets in a fender bender with a human and gets enraged won't use his superior size and ability in a fight to get even more in your face and scare you into backing off? Do you think human might resent this and want to get the fuckers back because of bad things they've experienced? It's not unreasonable to fear what a mage can do you to; not much less that troll walking past you on a dark street. Sure, he's probably not going to mug you, but could you do a single damn thing about it if he decided to? Won't you resent that?

And elves! They've taken over two nations and made them, to varying degrees, de jure outposts of entrenched elven superiority. You've heard rumors they took over Ireland by setting up fake scandals and engaging in terrorism. You know Tir Tairngire up and seceded from Salish-Shidhe for no great reasons based on freedom or persecution. And those Manitou in the Algonkian Council tried the same thing! What might they be planning next? Why are they all clustering in [city or region X]? Is that elf working for the UCAS FBI really loyal to his country of citizenship? Or is he passing secrets on to Tir Tairngire, believing (or not) that doing so isn't really harmful to his nominal country? Take the worst examples of paranoia over Israel and American Jewish "dual loyalties" and multiply by ten.

But at least we humans have the dwarves to look down on. Silly shorties, they can't hurt me much. Sure, they're stronger, but I can always run away and bring back a lynch mob to hunt them down before they get away. Let's all reserve our amused condescension for the dwarves, mostly harmless metas that don't invite our envy for being more beautiful (or treacherous). I'm sure we'll get along famously.

All of that is considerably different from today's racism. SR's is based on factual fears with a real basis. It's based on far bigger "superficial" differences than anything today. Not only should racism be much more prevalent, it should be harder to argue that it is wrong in its less virulent forms. Now that's some dark atmosphere!

[Demonseed Elite]

[Slithery D]

Wow, good catch. See also vampires. Cultural popular with a small segment of the population, feared by most, sought out by some for immorality...

Maybe Quebec is the most enlightened NA nation.

[Kagetenshi]

[eidolon]

So write one. Play one. Do you need the books to spoon feed you every happening in the world? Of course not, but that's my point.

[Kagetenshi]

[mfb]

[hyzmarca]

[krayola red]

[mfb]

aboriginal australians is the main one i've seen reference to.

[Critias]

[SL James]

[Witness]

[Conskill]

[Critias]

Right, but it's not just ignorance (or whatever) in SR. Trolls are different than humans, Orks are different from humans, Ghouls (especially) are different from humans. There's statistical proof of it. We know, OOC, that Orks on average are less intelligent and more physically powerful than humans. It's not a stereotype, it's a fact. Ghouls aren't just the AIDS victims of the 2060's -- they're clawed, fanged, astrally active, and they eat human flesh.

The metaracial differences in SR are very, very, real. Everyone who's ever even just glanced at the character creation chapter knows that, which means folks in-game have probably figured it out by now, too.

[Conskill]

I wouldn't argue about the ghouls. I draw the line on happy-fuzzies well before we get to "considers me dinner." I'm also not arguing that there isn't quantifible differences between the metatypes -- obviously, we all have the same rulebook (plus or minus an edition). I will argue two things, though:

1) While racism in SR can be attributed to "real" differences, racism in real life also began with what was perceived to be real differences ("The natives? They're not humans, they're animals."). There is no real difference of motive between a Humanis dweeb being afraid of the big bad ork, and a southern dweeb in the Reconstruction era being afraid of a burly African-American.

2) We have a copy of the Shadowrun sourcebook, but they do not. Orks may certainly have a lower average tested IQ as a population, but -- as we have already covered -- so do some minorities in real life. We on average don't assume there is racial superiority at work in those scores, I doubt the liberal mainstream in SR is going to assume that's at play either.

Edit: To expand on that last point a bit. One thing to keep in mind about the shape of SR racism, is that 20th century racism is also going to be part of the history that informs them about the topic. The culture of the UCAS at this point has been tangling with racism in various forms for centuries, from slavery to the civil rights movement to the Amerindian concentration camps. There's a ton of times racism has come to play in the history of this setting where the final result is "Uh, whoops, guess we shouldn't have done that!"

The culture of the UCAS didn't just fall off a turnip truck when Goblinzation happened. Once past the shock and horror, I certainly can imagine them remembering and applying the old lessons, even when they don't quite fit (such as assuming Ork IQ scores aren't caused by a biological deficit).

This post has been edited by Conskill: Sep 13 2006, 09:16 AM

[Arethusa]

[Critias]

They don't need a copy of the Shadowrun sourcebook to notice that almost every ork in the world is dumber, stronger, and tougher than almost every human in the world. In much the same fashion they don't need a copy of the sourcebook to differentiate between adept, chromed, and unaugmented athletes, I don't think they need to "break the fourth wall" to realize trolls are, as a rule, stronger than humans, with dermal deposits on their skin, horns, disproportionately long arms, gestates for longer than a human, ages at a radically different rate, has entirely different skull structures, etc, etc.

We're not talking about something as trivial as skin pigmentation varying a shade or two; we're about Homo Sapien Nobilis and Robustus (and the others, that I can never remember). Actual different scientific classifications of humanity, based upon metatype, and generally accepted as such by the media, the scientific community, the government, etc. These aren't trends that can be written off by upbringing, or society, or what-have-you. A 1 or 2 point difference in a stat that generally only goes from 1-to-6 isn't a coincidence, nevermind a 3 or 4 point difference.

Orks are different than Elves, Trolls are different than Dwarves, and they all are different from humans. It's not a matter of perception, or social barriers -- it's an actual biological difference that will never, ever, go away. If you take a bunch of blacks and a bunch of whites and a bunch of hispanics and a bunch of asians and a bunch of everyone-else, and leave them alone on an island with some viagra and nice champagne for a couple dozen generations, you'll end up with some kind-of-darkly-skin-toned human beings with maybe almond-shaped eyes, when all's said and done. The minor physical difference between "races" nowadays can all be smooshed together in a melting pot, and go away; to me, that's proof they're not all that big a deal.

If you take a bunch of humans, Dwarves, Orks, Elves, and Trolls, and put them on that same island, with that same viagra and champagne? In a couple hundred years, you'll come across a larger Ork population than any other (given their breeding rate), you'll come across those original Elves (along with their kids and grandkids and great grandkids), you'll come across a few Dwarves, Trolls, humans, etc. They won't "breed into" one another, even if they do have sex -- there's no half elves in Shadowrun, as people like to say. You're born Elf or human, Ork or Troll. They won't meld together. They won't breed into one big pointy-eared, tusked, horned, short-but-tall-but-squat-but-average (with a good Edge AND Reaction AND Charisma AND Strength, etc) mix of one big happy family.

They're different, biologically, in quite a few more ways than something as negligible as skin tone. Which, to me, lends at least some credence to Shadowrun's racists (compared, at any rate, to the racists of today, and yesterday).

[Arethusa]

[Conskill]

Yet again, I do not question that there is a distinct difference between the metatypes, but I do think you are overlooking the importance of how twisted perception can become in our culture; and how important perception is in a socio-cultural issue.

If there is a conflict between your perception of reality and the true state of reality, you will act based on the perception of reality. In this case, it doesn't matter that real life is due to erronous perception and Shadowrun is due to "real" differences. Racism is not an objective force, it's something that is transmitted culturally and happens within your worldview: there is no change in a subject's behavior between the perception of a flaw and the reality of a flaw.

I don't ask you to go any further than that, because everything I've argued sits on that point.

If perception is just as important as the objective fact /w racism, then there is little to no difference between the roots of racism depicted in SR and the roots of racism in real life.

If perception is just as important as the objective fact /w racism, then racial relations in SR become far more complex. The lessons of the past centuries will need to be unlearned, and hegemonic leaks will hopelessly confuse the issue (try holding the "Orks are less intelligent" line during the media blitz surrounding the first Ork Ph.D).

[Conskill]

[mfb]

Conskill, the perception of orks and trolls is that they're big, dumb people. or not-people, depending on how far you take it. part of that comes from the fact that they are, indeed, big and dumb. another part comes from the fact that they look big and dumb. their speech is flat and uninflected because of their tusks, so they even sound dumb. i don't see public perception somehow magically turning around and viewing orks and trolls as being intelligent and quick-witted, or even on par with sapiens sapien.