 Is Shadowrun an unequal world?, Discrimination, and not just metahuman. |
  |
 Sep 13 2006, 10:07 AM
Post
#126
|
|
|
Freelance Elf  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714  |
I understand that perception and objective fact aren't always the same -- I think my overall point is that here, in real life, we've got racism almost solely as a result of perception rather than objective fact. We've got people with the tiniest little glimmer of a stereotype to worth with, that turn it into honest and genuine racial profiling, hatred, what-have-you. Call today's racism 99% perception, 1% fact, then, maybe?
In Shadowrun, racism is...what? 50/50? In a reality, in the future of our timeline, there really is a realistic basis for racists. There really are those differences. There really are different numbers of teeth and shapes of skulls ("Trolls look like cavemen"), and different gestation periods ("Dwarf bitches hold their runts too long), different aging cycles ("Wallace is never going to retire, the dandelion eating asshole, how am I supposed to get a promotion?!", numbers of children born ("Orks breed like the rats they are"), and all that. There's never going to be a dwarven olympic sprinter that can hold a torch to the best elven sprinters in the world, the way a black dude kicked ass in the olympics. There's never going to be a trollish Einstein that'll be as smart as the smartest possible humans. Elven movie stars might look real badass, but the buffest elf in the world will never win a globe-spanning powerlifting contest, if the world's buffest troll signs up, too. Nowadays, it's just stereotypes. In Shadowrun, it's truth. In real life, people's racist perceptions are generally based on little-or-nothing. Ignorance, combined with some tiny little spark of a reason to dislike a race, can turn into hatred given time. It's, as you say, Conskill, mostly perception, not reality, though. So take that same human habit for racism and hatred, and fast-forward it to a time when there really fucking is a real-life, grounded, honest, difference between the races. That hatred should positively skyrocket. If it only takes 1% "reality" to cause all of today's racism, imagine how splintered and hatefull a future would be where there's 10% "reality" to fuel hatred, or 50%, or 75%. Look at the backlash towards the Hispanic community over our border problems today -- now just imagine how it must feel for your average Latino after Aztlan takes away a chunk of Texas, by force. And that little example's still just a "within the human race" one that popped into my head (still focused on nothing larger than skin tone differences, and someone's last name). So now think about just how many people would have a reason to hate Elves, given their nation-founding ("I had family in Portland!), the jealousy they'd inspire day to day ("Cindy only got that job for her looks!), their longevity ("Why did my dad have to get old and die, when your dad doesn't?!"). Racism should be fucking everywhere in Shadowrun -- because there actually are (for a change of pace) real, honest, tangible, reasons for it. |
 |
 
|
|
Sep 13 2006, 10:12 AM
Post
#127
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 153 Joined: 7-November 04 Member No.: 6,811 |
Since it's approaching 3am over here, I'll concede the point and bow out for now. So far this thread has been a surprisingly good read, and a pleasure to talk in.
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 13 2006, 10:17 AM
Post
#128
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 100 Joined: 7-December 05 Member No.: 8,054 |
I have had this discussion with some of my players in the past (Ork players have had some rather bad run-in's with Lone Star in some of my games). The fact is that if you go by first through third ed., then orks and trolls get the shaft not just in terms of social pressure, but also due to genetics. In 1-3 (I have not gone through the char gen for 4th yet to know for sure the way I did/do for 1-3) the average attribute for a human was three. The average attribute for a meta-human was three plus or minus their racial modifiers. So the average troll on the street had an intelligence of one. And, conversely, the average human could not compete with them physically. Elves and Dwarves, in turn, on average, were superior to humans, not just in their biology, but also in the fact that they were gifted with extra long lifespans.
Now, despite the claims of some rather dubious researchers, racial differences in RL can all be explained by segregation by race and the attending effects of poverty. Children of all ethnic groups who are raised in integrated communities preform statistically exactly the same as everyone else in their community (that is in their "economic bracket"). The problem is that that would clearly not be the case in Shadowrun (again in 1-3 at least, not sure about 4). The average NPC troll on the street is dumb as bricks-and although that does not warrant discrimination, just as being stupid now does not warrant discrimination, it is also a bit off base to describe racial prejudice in Shadowrun as being a view without any supporting evidence-and not the made up creative use of data manipulation popular with bigots today. If FASA/Wizkids really wanted to have a game where this was confronted in a way that would be at all analogous to our own social problems, they should not have had the different races have variations in mental ability. End of the day however, there is no equality in shadowrun because in any group that you put Orks and Trolls into, they are not going to be as smart as the people that they work with and compete against. So, yes, an Ork doctor may well be smarter and more well educated than a human dock worker-however, he will not be as smart as a human doctor. Nor will an ork dock worker be as smart as a human dock worker. And people are going to notice, and it is going to be a problem. Stand-outs do nothing to help with this situation. Yes, it is the case that the Smartest Ork doctors are going to be smarter that the mid-range and below human doctors. But there are going to be way less Orks in the ranges of the elite of their profession, and they will not be represented at all at the very top of the profession. It really is just a crappy situation all around. AFE :nuyen: |
|
|
|
|
Sep 13 2006, 10:29 AM
Post
#129
|
|||
|
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
It's 6 am here, and ya don't see me slowin' down, do ya? Pansy! ;) Okay, okay. So I work third shift, and I'm always up right now, but still... |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 13 2006, 12:15 PM
Post
#130
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
This is just wrong. Imagine your average group of kids playing with little or no supervision. Ever been bullied? Bullied someone else? Seen it happen? Now make some of those kids much bigger and stronger than kids much older than them. Only their own sense of kindness and restraint can keep them from taking every toy, hogging every slide, knocking down every human kid who makes them mad. And little kids don't have a sense of kindness or restraint. So ork and troll kids can't play with others. ("Why mommy?" "I don't want you to get hurt.") Or if they do, the adults will have to constantly drop the discipline hammer on the orks and trolls to keep them in line and act like civilized people. Remember how smug you felt when the bully got reined in by an adult? Now imagine how all of that childhood (non)interaction effects race relations growing up. Your mom wouldn't let you play with them because she didn't want them taking your toys or pushing you around. (None of the norm kids would play with me as kid because their parents wouldn't let them.) Or you grew up with them, but became used to misbehaving ork and troll kids receiving the lion's share of punishment and discipline. (Fuck, the Man has been down on my ass even since kindergarten!) That's much different motive than anything today. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 13 2006, 01:13 PM
Post
#131
|
|||||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Aside from the first line of that shadowtalk exchange, I didn't write that. The rest was inserted by the editors, probably to fill out the end of that page so that the next subheading started at the top of the next page. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Sep 13 2006, 01:41 PM
Post
#132
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 595 Joined: 12-May 05 Member No.: 7,392 |
I probably should have taken the advice to skip this one. But oh well. I could do without the loaded terms in the reply--the accusations of "hiding" behind sensitivity, the snide line about not having experienced classism and injustice (it's often unwise to make such abrupt, sweeping assumptions--I'll leave it at that for the moment). But the most interesting thing about the post is that it pretty much proves the point I was trying to make, that racism needs to be treated differently than organlegging. Who is going to get up in arms about how realistically or not organlegging is depicted? But the issue of race is extremely loaded. So the argument being made by Arethusa is not that racism doesn't require sensitivity, but rather that, in some people's opinions, SR has not been sensitive enough. Fine. I'll deal with that issue later today. But remember that one person's definition of sensitivity does not trump someone else's--you find the current treatment to be insensitive, but there are others who would find some of the recommendations here to be insensitive as well. It's a difficult line. More later. Jason H. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 13 2006, 02:06 PM
Post
#133
|
|
|
Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Okay. Here's a slightly different angle on the question that might clarify people's point of view. Who has used racism in their game and how? Has anyone explored it to a significant degree? It might be quite interesting to make players victims of racist attitudes if they've never experienced it. Role-playing is a chance to step into someone else's skin, after all. I don't think personally, it's something I'd enjoy making a big issue in my game, though. Unlike organlegging, it's more likely to stir real feelings rather than faux-I'm-just-roleplaying-feelings that most things do. On an unrelated note as someone new(ish) to the boards. I wrote all that Shadowtalk example earlier. Would it be appropriate to post it in the In-Character section of Dumpshock? |
|
|
|
|
Sep 13 2006, 02:12 PM
Post
#134
|
|||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
Ha. Well that's me told! Still I think the general point stands. Space is usually tight, so the kind of opinions that get expressed in shadowtalk have to be limited, on the whole. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Sep 13 2006, 06:36 PM
Post
#135
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
Sorry about that - was tired and distracted on that post and apparently not thinking clearly. (just blame it on my trollish genetics) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 13 2006, 07:00 PM
Post
#136
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 106 Joined: 27-July 03 From: Mainz, Germany Member No.: 5,072 |
As far as it looks, nobody else thought to comment on this, but I have to say, it's a nice read, and a good example of how one could slip in some "non-caricature racism" into a SR session by, for example, adding that speech to a stolen dataset during a run, or have the runners happen to listen in on the thing because one of the guests is under their surveillance. :) |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Sep 13 2006, 07:27 PM
Post
#137
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
like i said in my last response, i really don't see how equating orks with african-americans is at all sensitive. but that's exactly what, say, Orxploitation is all about. don't get me wrong, i think Orxploitation is basically okay... but if people were going to get up in arms about SR racism, i think they'd have probably already started with that. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 13 2006, 07:32 PM
Post
#138
|
|
|
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Well, we had that discussion. But DS hasn't.
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 13 2006, 07:44 PM
Post
#139
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it's pretty obvious.
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 13 2006, 08:18 PM
Post
#140
|
|
|
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
No kidding.
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 13 2006, 08:33 PM
Post
#141
|
|||
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...again, as a player I have been running KK as being very biased against elves. As a GM, I have not only been bringing into play the racial biases presented in SoE, but also the strong ethnic tension between the Serbs, Croats, and Bosnians. "...the Serbs hate the Croats and the Croats hate the Serbs It's a mixed up, tumbled up, drekked up world..." -introduction to Rhapsody in Shadow |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 13 2006, 08:36 PM
Post
#142
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
The scary part is that I hear that being sung to the tune of "Lola"...
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 13 2006, 09:25 PM
Post
#143
|
|||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Rereading what I wrote, my reply was a little more brusque and a lot more incoherent than I intended, and I apologize for both. That'll teach me to try and post a 5:30 in the morning with a splitting headache. My issue is with conflating sensitivity with a refusal to take very real problems very seriously, that simplifying problems to the point of comic stupidity is somehow better for anyone. Worse, still, that it simplifies so grotesquely, as mfb and others have correctly pointed out. And to be fair, I would not have brought it up if you hadn't. I don't consider sensitivity as you mean it particularly important, but I do have issues almost everywhere else in the gameworld. Racism is hardly the only problem it simplifies terribly; human trafficking and organlegging, for example, are far more complex and far uglier than SR writers dream of, and I suspect few people here have had to deal with that in their own lives. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 13 2006, 10:40 PM
Post
#144
|
|||
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...yep, catchy tune, that. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 13 2006, 10:45 PM
Post
#145
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yeah. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 14 2006, 02:00 PM
Post
#146
|
|||
|
Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Thank you. It's nice to get a comment on this. I checked my friends server logs and I got 14 referrals from Dumpshock looking at it (three of which were me testing it), so I know someone else must have read it. ;) I agree with Demonseed Elite that it would be hard to get anything significant across in the shadowtalk without wasting a lot of wordspace, but there might be opportunities to do something like this (i.e. in-character discussion) in some of the more fluffy long winded books. I think of things like Loose Alliances, for example. They could also have some more short pieces on their website along with the stories which GMs could use for filler background. E.g. something players could read in the inevitable dead time of the GM sorting out someone else's spirit summoing etc.. I might tidy up this piece and have it as a brief flavour bit in a game myself. I find the whole orxploitation thing too clearly a "black" metaphor which is kind of shallow and out-dated. I make it a clear point in my game that metahumanity runs the whole gamut of ethnic grouping. The leader of the Desolation Angels in my game is a beautiful nigerian elf and just for emphasis of my opinion that racism strikes everywhere and brooks no irony, the local Humanis bigwig is black. Meanwhile orcs are white, or black or chinese, we have muslim dwarves and a beautiful blond aryan troll ( I don't know why so much SR art depicts trolls as bald). Skin colour makes no more difference any more than eye colour. And with 2070 cosmetics, both are easily changed according to fashion. One thing that hasn't been touched on is that the new races emerged overnight out of the original human race. It's only been what, fifty years? There will be a lot of people who have an Orc uncle or a human brother of whose niece happens to be a troll. In dealing with how realistic racism is or isn't in the SR setting, people are negelecting the familial ties between ethnic groups. Ties which must logically be very common. SR1 didn't say families and siblings goblinised. It said individuals did and there is a great deal of cannon material that backs this up. The ethnic divisions in SR don't have the same basis in immigration or slavery or cultural clashes that the real world does. There's no - "He's an orc so he's probably muslim," or "she's a troll so she probably doesn't speak English." It makes you reassess just what the basis for racism in Shadowrun is. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 14 2006, 02:30 PM
Post
#147
|
|||
|
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Hardly. Irony was when Humanis was run by a troll. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 14 2006, 02:42 PM
Post
#148
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Yeah, it obviously depends on who is doing the writing, but I think that you'd see more opportunities for something like this in books where the topic is more directly relevant. I read your example and thought it was fine, but it's not something that could be inserted in three lines of shadowtalk. You just need to devote more space to it and to do that, you need to be writing something where the topic is a big deal. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 14 2006, 07:16 PM
Post
#149
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
sorry, knasser, i'd meant to read that earlier, but i forgot. that's some good stuff, closer to what i'm talking about. there were some holes in OMFWOG's counterpoints that i'd have liked to see someone point out (orks aren't going to stop having octuplets just because they get an education, for instance), but overall it was a really good read.
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 14 2006, 07:22 PM
Post
#150
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I'll try to write up some examples when I have the time and can get into the right character (it's hard, at least for me, I'll admit that up front), but one simple example is just something like a poster using an off-hand metatype slur and then having someone flame him for being a typist… and then have that flame get mostly deleted by Captain (or his replacement, I guess, since SR4's where the new material's being written) with a "keep it civil" message.
~J |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 28th July 2026 - 06:45 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.