 Is Shadowrun an unequal world?, Discrimination, and not just metahuman. |
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 Sep 12 2006, 04:24 PM
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#51
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Shooting Target  Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992  |
Here's a thought: could it be that some people don't want or like to play a racist PC because they don't want to spoil the other players' fun?
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Sep 12 2006, 04:28 PM
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#52
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's fine. nobody has to play a racist PC. but that doesn't mean that racism in SR has to be a black and white (heh!) issue. the problem isn't what people play, it's what the game presents as being playable.
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Sep 12 2006, 04:33 PM
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#53
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That's a non-starter. While there is a subdiscussion about how people actually deal with the issue in their games, the primary issue is what the books present. What some people want or like to play is pretty much irrelevant. Beyond that, "spoil the other players' fun"? Explain? ~J |
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Sep 12 2006, 04:40 PM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
I think the books convey a world rife with prejudice, but the stuff is generally written (and the shadowtalk exclusively written) from the point of view of Shadowrunners, who are hardly representative.
Shadowrunners tend to see a bit more of the world, they tend to work with lots of different people and races, they live more day-to-day, and if they've survived it's probable that they're a) fairly liberal on these matters, b) fairly tactful and unwilling to offend potential allies in the Shadows, or c) total monsters who don't give a rat's arse what you think of them. |
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Sep 12 2006, 04:53 PM
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#55
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
except that lots of runners come from environments where racism would be how things run. all those ex-corp, ex-Yak, ex-mob runners? most of them should be pretty distrustful of metahumans, at the least. they were raised in that environment, and the stuff people learn when they're kids stays with them in one form or another for the rest of their lives. and it's not just tact, either; shadowposters actively deride racist posters. there should be a lot fewer b) and a lot more c).
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Sep 12 2006, 04:54 PM
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#56
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Right. Which is why I made a point of ending my post with a reference to Conskill's post, where he said pretty much everything you just said. I agree with and understand what he's saying, I just thought it would be easier to refer people back to his post, instead of typing them all out myself. You, uhm, disagree, I guess, and thought it would be easier to type it all out yourself instead of refer people to his post. Fair enough. |
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Sep 12 2006, 04:58 PM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
Maybe. But since almost all of that stuff is edited by Captain Chaos, and later Fastjack, I'd expect it to reflect their own personal leanings- which I would say are firmly in the liberal camp, as is often the case with the media. |
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Sep 12 2006, 05:02 PM
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#58
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
which is exactly the problem.
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Sep 12 2006, 05:04 PM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
So are you arguing that the SR books aren't realistic because there isn't enough racism (considered or otherwise) in them? Or that they are realistic but you take issue with Captain Chaos's editing?
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Sep 12 2006, 05:07 PM
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#60
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
neither. i take issue with the fact that racism in SR is a cartoonish parody, which naturally leads to guys like Captain Chaos and Fastjack dismissing it out of hand. the only reason Captain Chaos and Fastjack have an anti-anti bias is that the writing direction already has an anti-anti bias to begin with. racism shouldn't be something you can dismiss out of hand. Fastjack should have to defend his Humanis assistant programmer--"yeah, he's a racist and i hate it, but he's the qualified for the job." stuff like that.
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Sep 12 2006, 05:09 PM
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#61
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I wouldn't say they're unrealistic, merely very strongly biaised while being presented as being neutral fact. Sure, IC, we're all well aware it's being slanted by Captain Chaos (or whoever is shouting down the idiot Humanis this time), and it adds flavor or whatever. But the thing is, it's a game book -- it's all the resource we get on a given subject, OOC, and the Humanis (or Sons of Sauron, or what-have-you) don't ever really get the chance, OOC, to state their side seriously. Sure, it's cool that in character Captain Chaos (despite proclaiming that knowledge should be free for everyone) puts his foot down and stands up for what he believes in, or whatever... but the end result is unrealistically slanted sourcebook material, that leaves you thinking all anti-meta racists are inbred rednecks who can't string together a sentence without cursing four times.
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Sep 12 2006, 05:19 PM
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#62
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Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
I think racism as presented in SR is fine. You want more, put it in yourself.
When designing a game world for publication, you WANT to downplay such themes or otherwise make them simple and as negative as possible. So you make what few racists you do put in mostly idiots and rednecks. You do this because you are publishing a product designed for many different people with wildly differing sensibilities about the subject. You expect those that want more gritty and detailed content on racism to put it in themselves, in their home games. Can you imagine the public backlash against any game that presented racism as anything but stupid and evil? You stick one subtle, effective, highly intelligent racist in your game and you'll get masses screaming that you, the publisher, support racism and bigotry. Regardless of what the context of who this NPC is. Keeping subjects like racism simplistic is simply a factor of smart publishing design. -karma |
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Sep 12 2006, 05:23 PM
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#63
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Just curious -- when has this happened? What sourcebook, or entire game line, or even entire game company, has gone down in flames, under fire from righteously indignant gamers that couldn't tell fictional sourcebook material from reality? |
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Sep 12 2006, 05:28 PM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
He was having to defend Puck. OK nothing to do with the racist issue, but just goes to show that there are other things going on that probably matter more to Shadowland than a reasoned critique of racial prejudice. |
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Sep 12 2006, 05:32 PM
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#65
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Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
I'm just speculating about the depressingly common habit humans have of being offended by everything. How many "I'm offended by X" lawsuits and bills were filed last year?
While I'd like to hope that gamers on average are of smarter stock, I can't help but feel that more than a few folks would use this as an excuse to get offended. God forbid the media got wind of it. We had enough trouble in the 80s convincing the public we weren't all satanists. -karma |
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Sep 12 2006, 05:45 PM
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#66
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
So you really think one of the "in the club" shadowtalk posters being an eloquent, reasonable, rational, well spoken, competent Shadowrunner that was also a subtle-but-noticeable trog-hater would get Shadowrun international media attention, and lawsuits?
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Sep 12 2006, 05:49 PM
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#67
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Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
I know players -a lot of them- who avoid doing things they believe could be detrimental for everyone's fun. Not playing a racist in a Shadowrun group would be one example. |
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Sep 12 2006, 05:51 PM
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#68
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Not playing a criminal could be another. I'm looking for an explanation, if possible, of how this would be "detrimental for everyone's fun". ~J |
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Sep 12 2006, 05:55 PM
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#69
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...KK is openly biased against elves (particularly those from the TT), considering she was a human who grew up in the TT When the Council was still in control. Lots of bad experiences to draw on culminating with her being abandoned in Portland by her ambitious social ladder climbing father (who along with her mother & twin sister were elves). |
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Sep 12 2006, 05:57 PM
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#70
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Actually I was of the same opinion at the start of this. But having read posts by others here, I'm actually perusaded that it is a little misleading to present racism as solely held by inarticulate bigots. There are very scary articulate bigots out there, and there's actually an opportunity to show how they work here. I understand how ridiculing racists does show a negative impression which I would expect to come naturally to the designers. It would be a challenge, but you could show a Brackhaven like character in action and still get across how misleading he actually is, by showing some of the flaws in the argument. I might write up something like this later, if I have time. I think it would be interesting. |
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Sep 12 2006, 05:57 PM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
I do agree with Jong, but when I reflect back on my gaming life I remember a number of occasions where there was unpleasantness such as racism flying around within the player team. While it was aggravating at the time, I can't deny that it was dramatically effective and created memorable conflicts.
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Sep 12 2006, 06:01 PM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
It's not just misleading, it's bigotted! Not all racism comes from white people, I'm afraid. And when it does it isn't always from Rednecks. Racism isn't evil, it's just animal. Sure it's counterproductive and it's something humanity should rise above, but it's everywhere in every country between all sorts of racial groups. Better not to oversimplify the situation in real life, but I don't think Shadowrun is guilty of simplifying things too much either. |
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Sep 12 2006, 06:19 PM
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#73
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
This may miss some things that have now been covered. I had typed most of it out and then I got swamped at work. 'morning.
Perhaps, although it's arguable depending on one's interpretation of what intelligence means. (And no, I don't mean "Webster's definition".) knasser's way of putting it sums it up fine:
Sure you are. However, I'd argue that no learned city folk have ever held a "good ol' fashioned redneck lynching". ;) And actually, I don't personally use "redneck" in conjunction with racism/prejudice. I'm from Arkansas. I'm surrounded by "rednecks" and I know too many of them to use it as a stereotype. (I might make a joke here and there, because it's an easy stereotype that people recognize, but hey, nobody's perfect.) I'm wandering. Yeah, some "anti-racist" rants can sound bigoted. I would say that the motivation behind them is still just, though. People let themselves get carried away. People jump to stereotypes and buzz-words because they're easy, and people recognize them. Is it the "right" thing to do? No. But an anti-racist rant has never scared me the way hearing KKK members two booths over in a restaurant has. (And I don't mean the "I'm going to get hurt" type of fear, I mean the "deep down disgusting sociological nightmare" kind of fear.)
To put it slightly back into perspective, it is a game. Do you see an in depth portrayal of sexism? Aren't gangs handled with this same sort of cartoon, black and white, good and bad treatment? I know we're focused on racism because that's where the thread went, but when put up against the game as a whole, I still don't think its handling of racism is that badly done.
Indeed. And whether you think it's gritty enough or not, this is a product that has a pretty wide intended audience. I would rather see what's in the book(s) now, and have to harden it up, than to see page after page of "realistic" racism. Maybe thats "wrong" in some of your views, but that's mine.
No, but honestly, it strikes me as not being all that much different in scale from what the books have now. Maybe more concise, but not that much different in scale. Would I be in favor of replacing, say, SR3's wording with what you just wrote? Sure. Do I think it would mean major changes in the way an average group plays? Not really. (I can't speak for SR4, I've only really read mechanics sections, and then only parts here and there.) Re-reading that bit of your post, I realize that you're talking about putting it directly into the character creation rules. (And I realize now that that's probably what you've been saying the whole time. Sorry about that.) I'm not opposed to that. Overall though, I guess I still see it as being as unneccessary as putting "there are lots of religions, and your character can be an adherent of any of them" in the characer creation rules. To me, character creation rules should handle the hows, and game world description and fluff should handle the whys, at least where possible. By that notion, it belongs in the story about how things came to be this way, not in between "skills" and "magic".
I see your point. I guess overall I just disagree on how much of a factor racism "has to be" in order for the game to be "Shadowrun". (As I said, this is probably a bit dated now. I'll catch up later.) |
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Sep 12 2006, 06:34 PM
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#74
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i do. part of the issue, to me, is that the people who display bigotry in SR are not intelligent, according to Webster's definition. they act like ignorant hicks, and while there certainly are ignorant hick racists, there are also a lot of intelligent (according to Webster) racists. |
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Sep 12 2006, 06:42 PM
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#75
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
^ This post contains much wisdom.
Simple. If one player wants to play a racist, but the other players are uncomfortable with tackling such an issue in a social, gaming environment, then those players' fun is being degraded. If a whole group wants to have racism as a major and prevalent issue in their game, but one player is uncomfortable with that, that player is not likely to have fun. Granted, one of those situations would be "easier" to fix, the player in the second group could just leave, but neither is an ideal situation. |
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