 concealed carry weapons and body armor |
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 Sep 19 2006, 12:23 PM
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#51
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 111 Joined: 12-July 06 From: Redmond,UCAS Member No.: 8,876  |
<sigh> Katie, bar the door....
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Sep 19 2006, 02:28 PM
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#52
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,286 Joined: 24-May 05 From: A 10x10 room with an orc and a treasure chest Member No.: 7,409 |
No, I personally don't. The main thing about self defense is being able to think clearly, and not just lock up. You can have the best self defense tool ever and can be trained in how to use, but if you aren't mentally prepared to use it, you might as well not have anything. Am I being clear here? It's hard this early. |
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Sep 19 2006, 03:46 PM
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#53
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
I think krayola red means "of the two", not as they compare to another weapon/system.
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Sep 19 2006, 03:49 PM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 478 Joined: 18-December 03 From: Louisville, KY Member No.: 5,918 |
Gotta agree with Angelone here. Unless you know how to use a knife or OC spray, you're just as likely to get it taken away from you and get stabbed/shot with your own weapon.
And even if you ARE trained, there are so many variables to take into account. |
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Sep 19 2006, 03:53 PM
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#55
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Right, but the question is mostly meaningless. In untrained hands I'd probably say the spray, due to dual concerns of probably being more willing to use it (though this cuts both ways) and having slightly less ugly potential if the opponent gains control of it, but ultimately I'd say if you haven't trained you have no business carrying a weapon.
Note that I don't have military/LE experience. ~J |
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Sep 19 2006, 04:15 PM
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#56
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
If the other guy's unarmed and also untrained, you don't really need training with a knife to be dangerous with it, just a willingness to get your hands dirty. And your forearms. And most of the rest of you.
Most people don't have that mindset. I carry a knife everywhere, but as a tool much much more than as a weapon. I suppose if it came down to it, in an emergency it would occur to me to put the pointy end inside someone as fast as I can, and to repeat until insertion was no longer necessary. Whether I could or not, to be quite honest, I think has little to do with the physicality of the act, and everything to do with my state of mind at the time. To protect my wife, undoubtedly. To protect myself? My stuff? A stranger? I really don't know. Either way, as much as I wouldn't mind formal training on how to use a knife as a weapon, I'd go for some hand-to-hand stuff first. And before that, more pistol work. All that's just kind of an aside -- as to the actual question, I'd say pepper spray is a better bet for an untrained person interested in self defense. Both would be ideal (one for less-than-lethal situations, one for extremely up close and in your face crises), but if it came down to one or the other, I think the pepper spray would be the way to go. Everyone knows how to squirt something in the right general direction, it would let you irritate someone without having to get terribly close, and it's going to be easier to justify in court than fileting someone. That said, look into very specific brands/types before you buy. The stuff comes in a hojillion different varieties nowadays, everything from an actual squirt-style spray (just like a water gun) to an aerosol style for a mist/fog (hard to miss with, capable of giving a facefull to multiple attackers, but horrible for you if the wind's blowing the wrong way), and IIRC even a foam-texture style (which will only affect who you hit with it, no getting a face-full yourself 'cause of a breeze and a gel (which is similar to the foam, has pretty good range, and single-targets, plus it sticks). So there's a variety of 'em available, depending on what you have in mind, and your own willingness to maybe end up with a face full, yourself. And, btw, that might not be a bad idea (especially if you get a fogger/mister type, and might end up with some in an actual emergency) -- cops and military guys in most instances are required to get sprayed with this stuff before they can carry it, and it makes sense. You want an idea of what you're gonna do to someone if you spray 'em (so you can get a feel for what they can and can't still accomplish, under it's effects), and you want to show yourself that you can live through it (so you don't get a whiff in a fight, lock up, and get killed as a result of panic, shock, etc). Don't go huffing it or anything, but spraying a little into the air on a windy day, then walking into it a little (in a controlled situation, with a friend or two nearby) might not be a horrible idea. Whether you plan on a self-test or not (and, especially if you have asthma, the self-test might NOT be a good idea, but then carrying it might not be too bright, either) -- do find somewhere safe, and open, and outdoors, and ventilated, and fire it a few times. Learn what sort of range and accuracy you can expect, get a feel for where you press to make it shoot, etc, etc. Just because it's not a gun or a knife doesn't mean you shouldn't practice with it -- it's still a weapon, and weapons are at their most dangerous (to all involved) in unskilled hands. Use a paper plate as a target (draw an angry smiley on it if you want), and see how that foam shoots, or soak it in a stream, or see how close you'll need to be to spray/mist it. Practice with your weapon, whatever it might be. Oh, and last bit of advice, check the Scoville Heat Unit of whatever brand you're considering. 1.5-2 million is the "default" for police-grade stuff (iirc, 2 mill is the highest allowed). Higher the better (nastier). If whatever you're thinking of buying doesn't mention the SHU, buy something else -- it's like a car manufacturer not telling you the miles per gallon, or something. |
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Sep 19 2006, 06:34 PM
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#57
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
If someone was asking me "I want to carry something I'll train for an hour with once every few years," I'd send them towards the spray and try to drive home the point that the goal is to get the fuck outta Dodge, not to mess up whoever you just used it on. Essentially untrained people should not be carrying lethal weapons, in my opinion.
If someone was asking me who had a serious interest in self defense and was going to put in training time, I'd tell 'em to carry both. Options, options, options... |
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Sep 19 2006, 07:26 PM
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#58
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Target Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Candyland Member No.: 7,454 |
Bullshit. As long as you understand when you should use the weapon (eg. your life is in danger and running away is not an option), there's absolutely no reason why an untrained person shouldn't carry one. Contrary to popular opinion, it's pretty damn fucking hard to take someone's weapon away when they're trying to kill you with it - being afraid to carry a knife just 'cause your assailant might seize it from you is just silly. If he's so much better trained and he wants to do serious bodily harm or kill you, which is the only situation when you should bring the knife into play, you're pretty much screwed anyway. To the original question: pepper spray, IMO, is a better weapon for the untrained because it's less of a precision tool than the knife. For the trained, I would say carry both. Or better yet, get yourself a gun. |
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Sep 19 2006, 07:46 PM
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#59
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
"Take away", somewhat difficult. "Control", not difficult at all. As for understanding when to use a weapon, that isn't something that magically springs into being. ~J |
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Sep 19 2006, 07:58 PM
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#60
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Target Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Candyland Member No.: 7,454 |
For people with equal levels of combat experience? Yes, it is difficult, at least to do so in a consistent and reliable manner. Not to mention that having your weapon controlled isn't nearly as bad as having it taken away and used on you, and stands as a drawback for lack of training rather than using a weapon.
Common sense helps. Taking out your knife for a schoolyard scuffle is just plain stupid. |
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Sep 19 2006, 08:09 PM
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#61
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Or, you could just go here and have this discussion all over again.
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Sep 19 2006, 08:30 PM
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#62
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Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
No training at all?
Hmm. How about that Taser Jacket that was posted a little while ago? http://www.no-contact.com/ :) -karma |
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Sep 19 2006, 08:39 PM
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#63
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Ok, that was something I wasn't assuming—it is true that there are people out there with no real experience who will nevertheless generate a situation where weapons are used, but particularly in the case of lethal weapons I don't consider it unreasonable to assume that the opponent has basic knowledge of what they're doing—and when comparing someone with a basic idea of what they're doing to someone without any idea, it becomes quite easy for the former to control the latter's weapon—which ranges from best-case scenario (preventing the latter from using the weapon) to bad-case (causing the latter injury with the weapon) to worst-case (outright wresting away control of the weapon). If you have no training, and get in a fight with someone who has any meaningful training at all—not necessarily formal—your weapon is just one more way to get yourself hurt.
Obvious, yes. Taking out your knife for a bar fight? Taking out your knife when someone is robbing you? Taking out your knife in $SITUATION? Common sense is bullshit. The decision of when to use force (especially lethal force) is not obvious in most cases for someone who hasn't thought about the question a fair bit. Most people who do think about it don't do it spontaneously. ~J |
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Sep 19 2006, 09:02 PM
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#64
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
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Sep 19 2006, 09:21 PM
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#65
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Target Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Candyland Member No.: 7,454 |
If you're facing someone like that and they have both the desire and the means to kill you, you're a goner anyway. Having a knife would skew the odds slightly in your favor.
Do you have reason to believe your life is in danger in any of those situations? Is it possible to run away rather than engage the attacker? If the answer is yes to the first and no to the second, then it's time to take out your knife.
If you're going to pack a weapon without even giving any thought to the kinds of situations when you're going to use it, then you shouldn't pack it at all. Thinking, however, is not training, at least not in the most widely used sense of the word. Confusing the two is not only incorrect, but dangerous. |
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Sep 19 2006, 09:53 PM
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#66
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Again, none of this is obvious. You don't get a little view inside the other person's head that tells you what they mean to do, how capable of doing it they are, any of that. Those look like common-sense questions, but getting a meaningful answer for them (both of them!) is hard.
You don't get to think about in advance, except in extremely general terms. What you get to do is make the decision when it's happening, and the only way to ensure being able to consider the situation rationally at the time is to train. "Thinking" does jack shit. ~J |
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Sep 19 2006, 10:01 PM
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#67
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Target Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Candyland Member No.: 7,454 |
If you don't trust your own judgement, then what can you trust? In a worst-case scenario, don't take out your weapon until they come at you with theirs. Unless you're a complete idiot, you're going know that someone coming at you with a knife of their own is trying to kill you.
Nice use of abstract and meaningless rhetoric. Thinking does jack shit? You obviously haven't done it. Training teaches you how to use the weapon. Thinking teaches you when you should apply that knowledge. |
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Sep 19 2006, 10:33 PM
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#68
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Can I get an outside opinion? Am I really making this little sense?
~J |
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Sep 19 2006, 10:38 PM
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#69
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
There's an old saying that is particularly apt here: Common sense, isn't. |
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Sep 19 2006, 10:38 PM
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#70
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I am so there... lollerskates: A lot of training revolves around the decision-making process that I believe you're referring to as "thinking." Scenario-based defensive training would be a good example of this... participants are placed into scenarios where there may or may not be a threat of some degree. It's pretty important to have gotten a lot of the "thinking" out of the way ahead of time, to the point where the processes are automatic. One of the things that this will do is let you know that a schoolyard scuffle is likely not a reasonable place to pull a knife, whereas going into the situation having not developed these thought patterns ahead of time and then trying to "think" when the pressure is on can lead to some pretty poor decision-making. |
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Sep 19 2006, 10:39 PM
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#71
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Target Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Candyland Member No.: 7,454 |
Just to clarify, I'm not in any way whatsoever against the idea of weapons training - in fact, I think that it would be foolish not to train with your weapon of choice if you have the means to do so. There are drawbacks to carrying an unfamiliar weapon that haven't been mentioned here, such as the possibility of fumbling your draw, thereby giving your opponent an even larger window to make his attack. That doesn't, however, mean that untrained people shouldn't carry weapons, because on the whole, it's still an advantage to do so, provided that one simple philosophy is followed: if you have a lethal weapon, don't use it to escalate the level of violence from non-lethal to lethal. If you don't have good reason to believe that your life is threatened, don't draw it, both for practical (more important) and legal (less important) purposes.
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Sep 19 2006, 10:41 PM
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#72
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
I was always taught that is it training that teaches you when you should apply X knowledge. Abstract thought is, like Kage said, utterly devoid of meaning. |
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Sep 19 2006, 10:41 PM
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#73
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
One of my concerns with truly untrained people is that they rarely seem to have thought things out far enough to have even those basic guidelines in place. All of the people I know who DO have those kinds of guidelines in place have also got some kind of training. |
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Sep 19 2006, 10:47 PM
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#74
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Target Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Candyland Member No.: 7,454 |
Point. Maybe I'm drawing too much of a line between the two, because good dojos do incorporate philosophy and scenario-based training into their programs. These places are too few and far in between, IMO. Nevertheless, just flat out saying that if you've never trained with a weapon that you shouldn't carry one is far too restrictive, especially in the case of pepper spray, which doesn't require much formal instruction to use effectively. I mentioned earlier that if you're going to carry, you need to know when you should use what you're carrying. This knowledge can be gleaned from formal training. It can also be arrived at through other means.
Some people shouldn't carry regardless of how much training they've had. |
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Sep 19 2006, 10:53 PM
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#75
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Target Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Candyland Member No.: 7,454 |
One way that abstract thought is useful is that it teaches you your limits. It's all fine and dandy to have a teacher tell you exactly when you should and should not use your knife, but if you simply cannot bring yourself to kill even in a situation when it's warranted, you need to realize this before you actually get yourself into that situation. There are some things that an instructor can teach you, and some that you have to learn yourself. |
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