Troll BP costs wrong? Options

[Valrus]

I always thought that only 35 points for the trolls BP cost was a tad low, considering elves were 30 and didn't get nearly as many perks. Just now though I noticed that the archetypes have the Troll BP costs listed at 40 BP, didn't see a correction for either section in the errata either, now I'm wondering if the BP cost should ahve been 40 all along or if it's justa typo in the archetypes.

[JonathanC]

I don't know what the deal is with your book, but mine says 40BP.

[Valrus]

well crud, that'll teach me to go by memory alone. :S

I still think the cost is too low though.

[Oracle]

I think the topic "metahumans are too cheap" has been discussed already. Just use your search-fu.

An example can be found here!

[2bit]

<geezer>
Back in my day, we had to choose between starting with a million :nuyen: or getting pointy ears... why, I remember when mmrmble grm .. ....
</geezer>

[Dragonscript]

I always started with a million nyen and i liked it!

[Moon-Hawk]

[lorechaser]

And woe unto he that wanted to play a dwarf mage!

A *and* B taken up! If you were lucky, you could afford soy protien, or you could cast spells!

Edit: Damn. Moon is faster on the draw.

[Moon-Hawk]

Hehe. Looks like we all remember that pain well.

[lorechaser]

To the main point: The only metatype I really feel is off is Ork. If you've accepted you won't have maxed out agility (eg, not an elf), there's very little incentive to go human over Ork for combat related plans. Case in point is my most recent game, where-in I changed the word "Human" to "Ork" on a friend's mage sheet, gained him 3 points in stats, and saved him 10 bp. He doesn't plan to summon spirits as a big part of his character, and he has Intuition as his drain stat.

All good.

[Moon-Hawk]

I agree that ork is a very good deal, build-point-wise. But even so, I really don't see my games overrun with them.

[2bit]

I wonder if they revisited metatype costs in this edition? It feels like their costs haven't kept up with changes to the metatypes themselves.

[DireRadiant]

Someone did a reverse engineering of hte likely calculation costs for the BP and attributes and the metatypes come out mostly balanced.

However, it all depends on the weight the GM and Players apply to various elements which will not be the same in every game.

My opinion is that they are close enough.

[JonathanC]

Trolls cost enough. Ever build one? It's damn near impossible to make a decent mage or adept out of them and have anything left for contacts or gear. Cybertrolls aren't much cheaper. Factor in how useless strength is in 4th ed., and you'll start wondering why anyone makes a Troll these days. :)

[James McMurray]

Do a search for Troll Mage if you think it's not possible to make a good Troll Mage. Someone (sorry I can't remember your name) showed fairly conclusively that there's not much point in doing anything but a troll if you want a mage and all you care about are numbers.

[2bit]

unless you ever want to summon powerful spirits as opposed to "good enough".

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Que?

The force of the spirit is limited by the magic attribute - trolls don't get penalized there.

Sure, he'll have fewer bound spirits (charisma-limited), but that's not what you were complaining about, is it?

[Zen Shooter01]

Regarding trolls, I'm going to point out that pg. 67 of SR4 clearly states that trolls average 2.5 meters and about 325 kg, or 8'1" tall and 720 pounds in weight. Which means they do not fit in most cars, period, and will have to duck significantly inside most structures. Trying to hide is very difficult. And as only about 5% of the population, they will stand out in crowds and communities - they are very visible people in an invisible line of work.

The size of a troll is quite a drawback in itself.

[James McMurray]

Yep. If folks would follow that link Oracle provided, or do their own search, they'd realize this topic has gone back and forth several times already. :)

The overall consensus was that metahumans are balanced if you don't ignore their downsides. For trolls and dwarves this is size. For almost all of them there's also some racism to worry about. If you do ignore their negatives and only look at vision and stats then they come out slightly ahead of humans, but not a lot. IIRC Orks were the biggest offenders in a world free from RP penalties.

[Metasigil]

To JonathanC, a high strength troll is awesome if you know the secret of "The Troll Archer". A Troll with a high STR bow does amazing damage, has great range, and a bow is 100% legal to walk down the street with. Sure, it's no Panther Auto Cannon, but it's almost as good, especially if they put out the old special arrows from Cannon Companion in Arsenal. (And Panther Autocannons are super cheesy and always have been, not to mention having terrible, confusing Fluff. What Recoil I ask :? ) Good God I love Troll Archers. Give it a Staff, and you have a modern Robin Hood of DOOM. :D

[lorechaser]

I'm always amused by the formulas and comparisons.

It's possible that the designers sat down and did a logrhythmic deduction to equalize races to each other.

But having written gaming books, and knowing people that have done so, I don't think that's the case.

I think they sat down, worked out what felt right, tested it several times, and then went "Yeah, that seems to work." Then they came up with a general rule - if you increase high value stats, you add X, if you increase low, Y, never have more than Z.

I could be wrong, but like I said, that's been my experience of game design.

[2bit]

[ShadowDragon]

[Mistwalker]

Try an adept troll, with missile mastery, quickdraw and 4 levels in power throw
Throws farther than a heavy pistol, does more damage (9P from a strength of 9), all from a bag of gravel, coins, marbles, etc...
:D

[Valrus]

my apologies, my intention was to ask about a printing error, not re-start an arguement, which I'm sure had come up before, always does.