 Recoil and Other Questions, Gettin' Ready to Run SR4 Again |
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 Sep 16 2006, 04:37 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 77 Joined: 5-December 04 Member No.: 6,869  |
I'm getting ready to start up an SR4 game after a bit of a haitus. I'm re-reading the rules and old already answered and forgotten questions are coming up. I seem to remember finding this information before, but I'd like to be cetain of it.
Recoil Compensation, does it apply once per pass, or for each action? Say I've got a gun with two points of recoil compensation. I do a short burst, which incurs a -2 penalty. That's offset by the +2 recoil compensation. I fire again, which incurs a -3 penalty. Does my +2 recoil compensation reduce the -3 penalty to a -1, or since I've already applied my recoil compensation this pass do I not get to use it again? I'm almost certain it's the former (I remember being really shocked when I found out). I'll have more questions later as I bone up on the rules again. Thanks much. *edit* Ooh, here's another question. If a mage is wearing some sort of image inhancing goggles, can he still cast spells on you? I'm fairly certain he can with cyber-eyes (because he's payed the essence cost) but I'm not sure with outside equipment. |
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Sep 16 2006, 05:21 PM
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#2
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
The general consensus is that recoil modifiers accrue over the course of the Phase. At least, that's what the RAW and the example in the BBB describe. Thus:
The image-enhancing goggles can be used by mages to cast spells only if the enhancements are optical, not electronic. As such, the only vision enhancement that is likely to work is the optical version of the vision magnification enhancement. Depending on the GM, the image link and the smartlink may only display lines on an otherwise optical display field, and so also be compatible. |
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Sep 16 2006, 06:13 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
I was under the impression that the official word was that it applied per action. I'll see if I can dig up the thread here.
Ah here it is: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=9987 |
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Sep 16 2006, 06:25 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
I use it per action. My players haven't complained, yet :D.
On the mage thing, I agree with Aaron. |
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Sep 16 2006, 07:45 PM
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#5
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
Could someone explain to me how a Gas Vent III system of recoil comp offers six points of recoil compensation over the course of a single phase when firing one short and one long burst, but only three in the same amount of time with the same number of bullets on a full-auto burst? I'm kind of confused on that point.
Incidentally, the way Rob is quoted as explaining it from that thread and the way it is described in both the rules and the accompanying example (p. 143) don't agree. |
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Sep 16 2006, 09:01 PM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 77 Joined: 5-December 04 Member No.: 6,869 |
I'd imagine because in the former you pull the triger, pull the gun down, and pull again it's alot easier than if you were to just hold down the trigger. There's no half second gap in fire to recenter yourself so it becomes a little harder to throw those bullets in the same area. Atleast that's the rationale I came up with. |
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Sep 16 2006, 10:35 PM
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#7
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
It's an excellent attempt, I'll give you that. I can't agree with it, though. If anything, bringing the gun back to bear in that half-second (or whatever) would just throw your aim off more, not less. Not to mention the fact that in the same time, you can just as easily compensate for the recoil and track the autofire back into line. There's also still the problem that the rules and the example in the book seem pretty clear about recoil accruing across the entire phase. This may be yet another one for the FAQ. |
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Sep 16 2006, 10:43 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304 |
Actually, short controlled bursts are what the military and special forces train for.
When go for short bursts, the weapon has less time to move out of alignment, inertia and mass coming into play. When you go for full auto, the little errors from the recoil accumulate and then inertia and mass work against you, as the weapon in now in motion. When weapons use automatic fire, either bursts or full auto, the recoil comes from both kick from the bullet leaving the chamber, and the slide slaming the new bullet into the chamber. I don't know about you, but I have fired burst and full auto, and I know that (for me and all the guys in my unit) full auto is harder to control than bursts. But I will admit, there is something just plain fun about full auto :D |
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Sep 16 2006, 11:04 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
Easier said that done. Firing a weapon on burst fire (Short controlled bursts!) is much easier to retain accuracy than when holding the trigger down, firing on fully automatic mode - The waste of ammunition, and loss of accuracy is why (As I'm sure you all know) automatic weapons are much less common field issue weapons. In the U.S. Armed Service you'll usually find one dude toting the SAW. Everyone else is rocking less-than-fully-automatic. Even easier (And for all intents and purposes just as rapidly) to retain accuracy is to just fire in semi-auto mode. Totally practical. Especially since w/ burst fire, many grunts will just aim between multiple targets, and hope their was aim is a little off. Retaining accuracy, while your weapon is bouncing around from recoil is difficult at best - The most likely scenario for Shadowrun is that runners sight their target. Squeeze the trigger. The weapon burst fires. They resight their target. And fire a second burst. This is a pretty realistic scenario for 3-6 seconds. Which would mean a gas vent applying in both bursts isn't that far fetched. But you can, generally speaking, count 'holding down the trigger and walking your weapon back on target' pretty much out the window for realistic scenarios - Especially at any respectable range. |
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Sep 16 2006, 11:17 PM
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#10
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
I was hoping this conversation would bring forth people that had experience with this sort of thing. I've only done research; I haven't actually had small arms training. Two bursts in three to six seconds makes a lot of sense. But the Combat Turn is only three seconds long. I think that clearing recoil modifiers (resighting the target) every three seconds is reasonable. I think that being able to clear them in several phases (with multiple IPs) is being generous, but acceptable given that the people in question are inhumanly quick. I think being able to resight at twice that rate is a bit much. |
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Sep 17 2006, 01:22 AM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304 |
Well, actually I do have some experience with pistols, rifles (assault and sniper), light anti-tank weapons (LAWs), Squad Assault Weapon (SAW).
Thank is why I chimed in with the fact that short burst are easier to control than long bursts. I know from personal experience. |
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Sep 17 2006, 01:52 AM
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#12
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Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
Recoil? What's recoil?
<peers down at his cyberarm gyromount> What? :D -karma |
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Sep 17 2006, 02:51 AM
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#13
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
This sentence, too, could really use the "in the US Armed Forces" qualifier. :) Nearly all other militaries are rather less pessimistic about non-limited fully automatic fire. |
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Sep 17 2006, 03:04 AM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 77 Joined: 5-December 04 Member No.: 6,869 |
Another question that arose during character creation is the Attribute Boost power of adepts.
Can I buy one level of Boost Body for .25 points and roll as many successes as I want, or is the number of successes I can gain limited to the level I buy the power at? So if I bought one level and rolled three hits, would my Bod go up by one or three? It's not explicitly clear in the power description, but it works like a spell. For all other spells the number of Hits you can roll is capped by the force of the spell. Would this power have a force equal to the levels you buy it at? |
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Sep 17 2006, 06:26 AM
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#15
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
That's how you are supposed to use a ring mounted .50 cal IIRC. Other than a rigidly mounted belt fed MG this doesn't seem very effective. The last instructor I had said, in regards to the walk the rounds in and whole hose them down bit, "about the time it gets interesting you run out of ammo". The only people I know who typically use a lot of fully automatic weapons are the guys in SOCOM. Who are busy spending a small fortune on an integrated electronic bullet counter so they can send their M4s in for rebuild before they shoot them to pieces, which is what tends to happen now. I'm told that if you practice a lot you can get very good effects with full auto from MP5s and M4s. But at $2 per round I doubt many SR teams spend 40 hours a month in shoothouses firing 5,000 rounds per man. |
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Sep 17 2006, 06:53 AM
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Yes, spray and pray on full-auto is very popular with other forces. Which is why the US have a greater than 20:1 kill ratio in combat with them. (Example – in Somalia the Somali’s had between 500 and 5000 dead while killing 18 Americans.) Aiming at your target and firing a single well aimed round tends to work very well. It also requires that your guys go out to the range and shoot, then go do live-fire exercises faster and faster. This tends to be very expensive in both time and ammo and hence most armies don't do it. There used to be a thread on the ar-15 forum that had loads of pictures of 3rd worlders firing weapons in the general direction of their enemies. Aiming wasn't a phrase I'd use to describe any of the techniques demonstrated. But it makes a great resource for describing ganger shooting techniques, if I could find it. :( |
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Sep 17 2006, 09:46 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
Well. Two bursts in three seconds isn't horribly far fetched. It's two -accurate- bursts in three seconds that start making things interesting. To fire both those bursts inside of three seconds, you're probably jerking your trigger, which will send your shots awry. However. If Shadowrun Technology is to the point where triggers are better equipped to handle jerking (Somehow?), and weapons are barely recoiling at all due to advanced gas venting, and weighting, then... ...The Process, inside of three seconds, would be more like this. 1) Sight Target. 2) Jerk Trigger - Fire Burst 3) No recoil, weapon does not need to be resighted. 4) Jerk Trigger - Fire Burst - At this point, recoil may apply. So. There you have it. I can suspend disbelief a bit, and believe that some future weapons technology allows for rapid trigger pulling compensation. The most unrealistic part for all of this to me, however, is been that a street Joe Samurai with 4 IPs can burn 40 rounds on full auto per turn. Whereas, Joe Average's weapon only fires 10 rounds on full auto. Somehow, Joe Samurai got wired reflexes put on his weapon, too. Although, in hingsight - With a move by wire system, a body that is constantly in tension may be able to produce a smoother trigger pull, contributing to quick, accurate bursts. |
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Sep 17 2006, 10:28 AM
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Smartlink connected by a Direct Neural Interface ? :cyber: |
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Sep 17 2006, 10:40 AM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
This is incorrect. Sure, when using good aim and control, a street sammie can still get off 40 rounds while average joe wageslave only gets off 10... but if it's a matter of fire away the joe can simply use the cover fire option and pretty much empty his magazine in that 3 second round. Although Suppressive fire uses 20 rounds according to the rules, IMHO this is the MINIMUM rounds spent required to have this effect. Unprofessionals should be able to fire off 30 rounds or more (depending on ROF, most fully automatics can fire 600 RPM or more). And even apart from this, you could easily rule for flavor that less skilled firearm users can squize the trigger alot and still only get the effect of firing a few rounds. I could probably get off 5-6 rounds with a 9mm automatic myself in 3 seconds, but I wouldn't hit anyone other than innocent bystanders with that. |
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Sep 17 2006, 10:52 AM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I'm sure the Armed Forces of Canada, the UK, Spain, France, Germany, Austria, Italy, and Australia (to name but a few) appreciate being compared to the Somali militias circa 1993. |
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Sep 17 2006, 11:12 AM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
COnsider that the marines usually lose in wargames against australia, AND that in the two batles ever fought between australia and the US Australia won...
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 Sep 17 2006, 11:26 AM
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#22
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,711 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
I don't think it does. AFAIK, you add up all recoil during each pass and apply the GasVent once to the total before figuring the modifier. i.e. one short burst (first burst) is -2 and one long burst (second burst) is -6 for a total of -8. A GasVent III will completely neutralize the -2, but when you have acculmulated a total recoil of -8 for the second burst, it will only reduce it to -5. Bye Thanee |
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Sep 17 2006, 12:47 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
No. Gas Vent Applies equally to both. 1) First simple action - Short Burst - 3 Rounds fired. 2 Points of Recoil. (First round fired does not creat recoil) Gas Vent III reduces this to 0 points of recoil. 2) Second simple action - Long Burt - 6 rounds fired. 3 Points of recoil. Gas Vent III reduces this to 3 points of recoil. So. If you're rolling 12 base dice for your firearms test, and recoil is the only modifiers, the first burst will allow to roll your full 12 dice. The second burst will be 12 - 3 = 9 Dice rolled.
There you go. Good call. 8)
If you want to introduce suppression fire in, then our afforementioned 4 IP pass character vs. a 1 IP pass character is now getting 80 bullets out of his weapon, while the other character is only getting 20 rounds out. So. The Rate of Fire of the weapon is improving along with the wielders reflexes. But to fix this issue would introduce unneccesary complexity into the system, which is why I chalk it up to suspension of disbelief, along with those Smartlink+Direct Neural Interface triggers. ;) |
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Sep 17 2006, 01:41 PM
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Right. I'm very much not a gun person and I'm lost. In previous editions, I'm pretty sure that recoil added up over the course of a round, not an initiative pass. That made sense to me.
Now assuming that as a GM I may have to justify the way this works to players (who may know more about guns than I do), can someone summarise the answer to the following question. Why does a recoil compensation system such as Gas Vents provide less recoil compensation for one person firing a gun (e.g. two simple actions in one initiative pass) than it does for another person (e.g. eight simple actions in four initiative passes). If it can fully compensate four of the latter person's eight bursts, why can it only compensate one of the former person's two in the same three seconds? This just doesn't make sense to me. It seems that recoil should accumulate over the turn rather than the initiative pass. This would also make recoil a more significant factor in choice of weapon. |
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Sep 17 2006, 01:48 PM
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#25
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,711 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Yeah, I could see that, if recoil never added up in any way. However, I always thought that you add up recoil during one action phase (i.e. -2 for the first and -5 for the second burst in one action phase total), though admittedly, I cannot really find any evidence that you actually do that right now, I just think, that that's what they meant there, since they mentioned the action phase in the recoil rules. :) Bye Thanee |
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