Recoil Compensation: Moses comes down the mountain

Recoil Compensation: Moses comes down the mountain, Don't make me grind up and feed it to U

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blakkie

Sep 16 2005, 01:09 PM

Post #1

Dragon

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Email received this morning, formated for this board, but no text changes outside of rearranging the letters in my meat-handle.

Man did they ever pooch this description. :P I wonder if the playtesters even used it this way. ;)

QUOTE

Hi Kwyjibo,

QUOTE (original email)

Seeking clarification on recoil.

The recoil example in the BBB doesn't cover something that is less than clear to me when i read the rules. If you could please enlighten me by finishing this example:

First Simple Action I fire my SMG in a [3 round] burst. My SMG has 1 point of recoil compensation, so after removing one point from the -2 recoil I have a -1 recoil penaly that applies to that attack. For the second Simple Action i fire another [3 round] burst at the same target.

For this second attack do i have a -3 recoil modifer (what is listed for the second burst in the Ranged Attack Modifiers table)?

Or do i have a -4 recoil modifer (-3 for the second burst plus the -1 recoil modifier that applied to the first attack)?

It would be -3, but that's because the recoil comp counts for each action. So the second shot incurs a -2 rather than a -3 because you have 1 point of recoil comp. Recoil from previous shots is cumulative, though, so you'd have that -1 recoil from the first shot too, so -3 all together on the second shot.

To break it down:

First Burst
3 bullets, Recoil 2 (1 per bullet, first bullet in an Action Phase never counts)
Recoil Comp of -1
Effective penalty of -1 (2 - 1) on 1st burst

Second Burst
3 bullets, Recoil 3
Recoil Comp of -1
Cumulative Recoil from 1st burst (Recoil 1)
Effective penalty of -3 (3 - 1 + 1) on 1st burst

> P.S. I would like to pass the answer onto to others at Dumpshock Forums, would it be ok if i copy/paste your reply?

Yep.

:: Rob Boyle ::
Shadowrun Developer for FanPro LLC
info@shadowrunrpg.com ~ www.shadowrunrpg.com

blakkie View Member Profile	Sep 16 2005, 01:35 PM Post #2
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263	Oddity this creates, it is slightly better from recoil perspective to do a Long Burst then a Short burst, instead of the reverse order, if your recoil compensation is 5....like White Knight weenies need an extra help. :P The first way means no recoil penalty, the later has a recoil of -1 on the second [long] burst. EDIT: Actually this oddity occurs at recoil 3, 4, and 5. Always one less recoil penalty for Long then Short.

nezumi View Member Profile	Sep 16 2005, 01:49 PM Post #3
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760	Yeah, in general the recoil rules are kinda whacked. That's why people complain that, firing a 10 round burst you're less likely to hit anything than with a 7 round burst. From what little I've seen (and I admit I haven't been paying much attention), it would seem SR4 does address this somewhat with wide/narrow bursts. Also, to make the math easier, I wouldn't complain if all firing TNs were reduced by 1, and the first shot was counted towards recoil. Might not be as realistic, but it's one less thing to remember when adding stuff up.

blakkie

Sep 16 2005, 01:55 PM

Post #4

Dragon

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QUOTE (nezumi @ Sep 16 2005, 07:49 AM)

Yeah, in general the recoil rules are kinda whacked. That's why people complain that, firing a 10 round burst you're less likely to hit anything than with a 7 round burst. From what little I've seen (and I admit I haven't been paying much attention), it would seem SR4 does address this somewhat with wide/narrow bursts.

With solid recoil compensation i'm not sure what the reasoning you'd have for using FA 10 rounds over the 9 rounds of Long Burst-Short Burst. Maybe one less roll so you only need to burn 1 point of Edge to up them both? But with recoil comp the former gives -5 die recoil, the later nada recoil.

But ya, at least they added Wide-Narrow to change that wierdness of what firing a burst did.

Dashifen View Member Profile	Sep 16 2005, 02:35 PM Post #5
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374	Thanks blakkie and Rob ;)

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Sep 16 2005, 04:54 PM Post #6
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	sounds like they basicly ported the recoil rule over from SR3 and used dice removal rather then TN addons... must confess tho that the rule that recoil conpensated for on the previus attack suddenly have effect on the next. somehow the logic of that escapes me...

blakkie

Sep 16 2005, 05:02 PM

Post #7

Dragon

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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Sep 16 2005, 10:54 AM)

sounds like they basicly ported the recoil rule over from SR3 and used dice removal rather then TN addons...

Ya, probably why they didn't describe it well. Most of the people involved had SR3 stuff left in their head that filled in the holes. :(

QUOTE

must confess tho that the rule that recoil conpensated for on the previus attack suddenly have effect on the next. somehow the logic of that escapes me...

That actually makes more sense to me, as you are already slightly off-balance as you squeeze the trigger (virtual or mechanical) a second time.

Jrayjoker View Member Profile	Sep 16 2005, 05:03 PM Post #8
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675	I must be zoned out. I read the thread title as "Mooses comes down...", not "Moses comes down..." for the last hour.

RunnerPaul

Sep 16 2005, 05:06 PM

Post #9

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QUOTE (Jrayjoker)

I must be zoned out. I read the thread title as "Mooses comes down...", not "Moses comes down..." for the last hour.

A moose once bit my sister....

Mind you, moose bites can be pretty nasty....

Clyde View Member Profile	Sep 16 2005, 05:09 PM Post #10
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237	So, if I have Gas Vent III I never take a recoil penalty on short bursts? The recoil comp counts on each burst and there's no "left over" recoil . . . ??? Sorry if this is dumb. Am very tired at the moment :spin:

Phantom Runner

Sep 16 2005, 05:11 PM

Post #11

Target

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QUOTE (Clyde)

So, if I have Gas Vent III I never take a recoil penalty on short bursts? The recoil comp counts on each burst and there's no "left over" recoil . . . ??? Sorry if this is dumb. Am very tired at the moment :spin:

What is the recoil comp of a Gas Vent III in SR4??

Fortune

Sep 16 2005, 05:52 PM

Post #12

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QUOTE (Clyde)

... there's no "left over" recoil . . . ???

There is leftover recoil. Any uncompensated recoil from the first burst is also added to the second. The only real change from SR3 to SR4 (outside of substituting dice mods for TNs) is that recoil compensation applies fully to each burst.

Slacker

Sep 16 2005, 06:07 PM

Post #13

Runner

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QUOTE (Fortune)

QUOTE (Clyde @ Sep 17 2005, 03:09 AM)

... there's no "left over" recoil . . . ???

There is leftover recoil. Any uncompensated recoil from the first burst is also added to the second. The only real change from SR3 to SR4 (outside of substituting dice mods for TNs) is that recoil compensation applies fully to each burst.

The example he is giving is of firing two bursts of 3 shots each, using a weapon with Gas Vents III which gives you 3 points of RC.

So the first burst would normally have a -2 modifier because of recoil, but the Gas Vent III compensates for that complete. So there is no left over recoil.

And then the the second burst would normally have a -3 modifier because of recoil, but in SR4 you apply the RC from the Gas Vent III to this second burst.

Thus Gas Vent III means that you never have to worry about Recoil when using 3 shot bursts.

Fortune View Member Profile	Sep 16 2005, 06:19 PM Post #14
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	Ah, fair enough. I need to remember to read things twice at 4 AM. :D

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Sep 16 2005, 11:04 PM Post #15
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	arg, kinda made the same misstake. i recall that in SR3 the entire recoil of the first attack carry over, conpensated for or not. but the reply from rob states that only uncompensated recoil carryes over. that makes a lot more sense than what i first read... or is it the lack of sleep and the beers thats playing mind games with me?

tirsales View Member Profile	Sep 20 2005, 01:38 AM Post #16
Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 18-August 05 From: Germany Member No.: 7,571	So ... If I use fullauto on multiple targets - firing 3 bursts on 3 people - I get RecoilCompensation on each burst?

apple View Member Profile	Sep 20 2005, 01:51 AM Post #17
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827	Yes. In this case, one "full burst" becomes three "short bursts". SYL

Slacker

Sep 20 2005, 01:52 AM

Post #18

Runner

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QUOTE (tirsales)

So ... If I use fullauto on multiple targets - firing 3 bursts on 3 people - I get RecoilCompensation on each burst?

That is one way of interpretting this, but personally I would say that with a Full Burst being a single Complex Action, recoil only takes care of the first three shots. Your pulling the trigger once and holding it down through out the 10 shots, you just treat it as three bursts for the purposes of damage.

Knarfy View Member Profile	Sep 20 2005, 03:58 AM Post #19
Target Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 25-August 05 Member No.: 7,621	Ok, I cant find anything in the entire PDF (and I searched the PDF) that says, or even implies, that recoil comp applies to both actions. In fact, the example on page 143 seems to imply the exact opposite. So is this errata, or is Rob mistaken?

Clyde View Member Profile	Sep 20 2005, 05:48 AM Post #20
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237	All right, I haven't bashed SR4 and I've been very optimistic up until now . . . But how in the hell did they not get recoil right? It ain't rocket science or anything - you just count to 10! 16 years and 3 editions and they never had a problem and NOW they get all screwy??

mintcar

Sep 20 2005, 09:11 AM

Post #21

Karma Police

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QUOTE (Fortune @ Sep 16 2005, 12:52 PM)

QUOTE (Clyde @ Sep 17 2005, 03:09 AM)

... there's no "left over" recoil . . . ???

There is leftover recoil. Any uncompensated recoil from the first burst is also added to the second. The only real change from SR3 to SR4 (outside of substituting dice mods for TNs) is that recoil compensation applies fully to each burst.

And that recoil increases for the second burst. You could interpret the rules as saying recoil increases by 1 for each time you pull the trigger (first short burst -2, second -3). That is, each time you "reset" your recoil comp, the starting recoil increases by one, then you apply the uncompensated recoil from the last shot/shots then you apply recoil comp, THEN you have your modifier. Or you could put it as Rob did :oops:, each round in an action phase imposes -1 recoil eccept the first.

(They did manage to screw up 3rd grade math in the example on page 143 :D )

Fortune View Member Profile	Sep 20 2005, 09:21 AM Post #22
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	The reason that the first short burst in a pass is at -2 (instead of -3) is to indicate the lack of recoil on the first bullet fired in that specific pass. Each subsequent short burst would be at (an additional) -3 penalty. Not that it matters, as I don't believe you can do more than two bursts in any particular initiative pass anyway.

mintcar View Member Profile	Sep 20 2005, 09:27 AM Post #23
Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505	Your right. Eccept you can fire 3 bursts in a phase with full auto on multiple targets. It is described as being resolved as multiple bursts. Though I will not treat it as such when it comes to recoil, there is nothing to indicate you should not.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Sep 20 2005, 12:21 PM Post #24
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	well it was treated as seperate bursts when applying recoil in SR3 so i dont see why it should change in SR4.

Lord Ben View Member Profile	Sep 20 2005, 12:37 PM Post #25
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659	So if you have an Ares Alpha with 2pts special chamber design, Gas Vents 3, and a shock pad on the stock you'll have 6pts of recoil comp and could do 3 and 6 round bursts without ever having recoil right?

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