 Recoil and Other Questions, Gettin' Ready to Run SR4 Again |
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 Sep 17 2006, 02:22 PM
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#26
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 77 Joined: 5-December 04 Member No.: 6,869  |
How does Full Burst and Multiple Targets work? You can fire at up to three targets with Full Burst, using three Short Bursts. Is this three attacks at -2, -3, and -3 recoil penalties?
Also, what about multiple target penalties? The second target, I'd imagine, is at -2 penalty to hit (as per multiple target rules). Is the next target an additional -2 (for a total of -4), or just remains at a -2 penalty? |
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Sep 17 2006, 02:50 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
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 Sep 17 2006, 03:23 PM
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#28
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,738 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Uhm... no?
Ok, so recoil modifiers are cumulative, apparantly, so my intuition wasn't so far off there. :) Is there any actual rule, that mentions cumulative recoil in the book? Bye Thanee |
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Sep 17 2006, 04:53 PM
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#29
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
Once again: the rules on page 142 and the example on page 143 do not agree with the explanation attributed to Rob Boyle in that topic. This means one of the following:
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Sep 17 2006, 04:57 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
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Sep 17 2006, 05:54 PM
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#31
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Target Group: Members Posts: 77 Joined: 5-December 04 Member No.: 6,869 |
Hey neat. That's the thread where I first learned how recoil worked. :D |
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Sep 17 2006, 07:40 PM
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#32
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Which of these heavily/exclusively uses full-auto fire? The ones I'm reasonably familiar with, Canada and the UK, pretty much only fire in semi-auto mode (oddly enough, like US troops). This is true of the US troops issues M4A1, which don't have burst controls, as much as it is for those issued guns with burst controls. It's a function of being trained to shoot accurately. You want to shoot your target, not shoot up the general vicinity of where he is. The reality is that most people across the world who have automatic weapons have no idea how to shoot accurately. The whole idea of using the sights is foreign to them. Heck, given the lack of people you see who wave a gun and have glasses in the 3rd world, many of them can't see worth a damn anyhow. So they fire on full auto in the general direction of their opponent. And get mowed down against a competent Western military force. |
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Sep 17 2006, 08:12 PM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The message to which I first responded dealt with the availability of fully automatic fire, not the heavy or exclusive use of it in combat zones by riflemen. I do not disagree that burning through magazines on cyclic is a bad idea in most combat situations, but the US military is (AFAIK) the only one which decided to "fix" the problem of lack of control on full auto by not allowing riflemen to even try. The militaries I mentioned above seem to think bursts longer than 3 rounds have some value.
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Sep 17 2006, 08:44 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Well, you are wrong on this. I know, from experience, that the Bundeswehr (german army) were trained to used single shot or burst fire. The only time they trained us to use full auto was at 'Sturmabwehrschiessen', which I can't even begin to translate (basically, when the enemy were in the process of overruning our position). Hm, or did they take the full auto mode away :eek:? |
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Sep 17 2006, 08:44 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
Well. They do have some value. Just not enough value to warrant every soldier on the field wondering if right now is a good time to start spraying rounds. ;) Edit: To include quote |
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Sep 17 2006, 08:53 PM
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#36
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
That the basic rifleman doesn't receive a lot of training for firing the weapon on fully automatic is not quite the same as the weapon having been made mechanically incapable of fully automatic fire. Or has HKPro.com (and every other site I found on the weapon) got the modes of fire of the G36 wrong? |
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Sep 17 2006, 09:09 PM
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#37
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Austere Emancipator, I can't see what you're aiming at (bad pun intended).
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Sep 17 2006, 09:17 PM
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#38
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The M4, M16A2 and M16A4 are not capable of fully automatic fire, hence the majority of US riflemen are not allowed to even try to use that mode of fire. The G36 is capable of fully automatic fire, which means riflemen of the Bundeswehr are given that option, even if many of them do not receive much training in making effective use of it.
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Sep 17 2006, 09:46 PM
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#39
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Ah, only a slight misunderstanding.
By the way, I am not up to SOTA. We still used the G3, and it's near impossible to use it in an effective way at full auto due to recoil. That might have changed with the G36, but the 40 years or so the Bundeswehr used the G3, that was the rule ;). |
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Sep 17 2006, 09:55 PM
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#40
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
OK. Yeah, 7.62x51mm battle rifles are famously uncontrollable on full auto.
G3A3 firing NATO standard 7.62mm ball: 146gr @ 2750fps with 46gr propellant from a 9.7lb weapon -- 12.7ft-lbs of recoil energy at 9.2fps, 2.6lb/s of recoil impulse G36 firing NATO standard 5.56mm ball: 62gr @ 3000fps with 26gr propellant from a 7.2lb weapon -- 4.6ft-lbs of recoil energy at 6.4fps, 1.29lb/s of recoil impulse. In other words, the G3 recoils about twice as hard as the G36. |
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Sep 17 2006, 10:02 PM
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#41
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
There's also a balance issue.
It's already argued that mages are superior to sammies in terms of damage dealt. If you're going to limit the sammie to one gas vent5 per round, you're further knocking down their ability to do damage. The short burst is a sammie's force 10 manabolt.... |
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Sep 17 2006, 10:06 PM
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#42
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
I'll give you that, but how many magicians do you see with Wired Reflexes 2? |
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Sep 17 2006, 10:53 PM
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#43
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Honestly, all of them, in one form or another.
I have yet to see a successful combat mage character that didn't either drop the single magic point for Synaptic Boosters 2 or invest in a force 3 sustaining focus to hold his increase reflexes. At the very minimum, they summon up a spirit and order it to sustain the spell for them. I can't imagine running a combat character that didn't have at *least* 2 passes. |
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Sep 17 2006, 11:52 PM
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#44
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
No, the AV rocket is the force 10 mana bolt. Works just about every time. Of course, in our group it's the mystic adept and the hacker who use them. . . And they don't take unhealable body damage from shooting them. The force 6 manaball are the guys with alphas and HE grenades. It's really hard to get 10 successes on body+Impact-2. |
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