 Elvish Life Span, Are they Immortals? |
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 Sep 21 2006, 10:08 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 308 Joined: 1-June 06 From: Nova Scotia, Canada Member No.: 8,631  |
Hello,
This topic has been something I've seen discussed elsewhere about elves being immortal (and being around before the recent age) as they lived our world. Now, I suppose some of that was continuing from the Earthdawn stuff, but my question is, how long do elves live specifically, and if they do have lifespan in the hundreds of years as it says in the rulebook (I don't have it with my but just going by what's in my head), how do the ones who aren't immortal know that? Do they take longer in childhood or something? How do you know your lifespan when you were just 'poofed' into existance genetically a while back? |
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Sep 21 2006, 10:10 PM
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#2
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Elven.
Elvish has left the building. |
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Sep 21 2006, 10:14 PM
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#3
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
My guideline is that if the elf has enormous blond permed hair he's probably immortal. I don't think anyone can work the guitar better than an elf.
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Sep 21 2006, 10:19 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 308 Joined: 1-June 06 From: Nova Scotia, Canada Member No.: 8,631 |
I have seen it being used both as Elvish and Elven, same with other such things. Such as something being Gnomish wouldn't be considered Gnomen. :P |
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Sep 21 2006, 10:30 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 313 Joined: 5-March 04 From: UK Member No.: 6,125 |
No, a gnomon is kind of something different. I suppose it you tranqu'ed up the gnome enough first... |
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Sep 22 2006, 12:12 AM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
It's postulated an elf could live to be 400 or so. Provided they don't die in childbirth or get stepped on by a troll or anything.
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Sep 22 2006, 12:27 AM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
I've always wondered about the lifespans as described. I mean, sometimes I hear that orks and trolls age super-fast, and sometimes I don't. Elven and dwarven lifespans have to be guesses, since they haven't been around in the 6th world for 400 years yet. Hell, they haven't even been around for 100 years, unless we're talking about IEs.
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Sep 22 2006, 12:28 AM
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#8
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...thankyouverymuch... -EP |
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Sep 22 2006, 12:47 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 308 Joined: 1-June 06 From: Nova Scotia, Canada Member No.: 8,631 |
That is pretty much my question. I can understand seeing some trolls and orks burning out due to the way their genetics work, and we've been around for maybe 60-70 years in SR3 and 4, so how do we know they'll live to be older than 100. And the immortal elves, even if we take those into account, are likely only special cases, like the way some people hold the world record for living until 120 or so currently. Reason that brought this up is a friend of mine was RPing it the way people do elves in D&D, like 'Oh, I don't need to worry about the little things, I'm going to live forever. I'll still be young and pretty when your kids are dead and gone', and how would any elf know that? |
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Sep 22 2006, 01:03 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 589 Joined: 23-July 03 From: outside America Member No.: 5,015 |
Elven and Dwarven are ® Tolkien words. Elfen or eleven or elfish or shellfish are not. |
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Sep 22 2006, 01:11 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 308 Joined: 1-June 06 From: Nova Scotia, Canada Member No.: 8,631 |
I know that's being fairly humourous, but one description I found was: Elf can be pluralized both as elves and elfs. Something associated with elves or the qualities of elves is described by the adjectives elven, elvish, elfin or elfish. A convention of modern fantasy usage is: the v in elven or elvish refers to human-sized elves (who correspond more closely to the mythology of the Viking Era), whereas the f in elfin or elfish refers to tiny-sized elfs (who correspond more closely to the folklore of the Renaissance and Romantic Eras). |
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Sep 22 2006, 04:39 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
The Tir Tairngire sourcebook had an extensive discussion of elf genetics at the end. While the point of it was to hint at immortals, it stated that gerontolists and geneticists had determined a lifespan of 400 years or so from studying the cells/genes. For one thing, <mumble> shortening during cell division would (or would not) obviously be shorter in elves if they live longer - it imposes and absolute limit on cell longetivity.
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Sep 22 2006, 05:20 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 308 Joined: 1-June 06 From: Nova Scotia, Canada Member No.: 8,631 |
The way that the whole elves living for long periods of time, and more importantly them knowing they will, brings up an interesting thought into my mind. We've got characters like Harlequin, and even The Big 'D', who have lived over many periods of time, if I remember my SR 'history' correctly. They have amassed large fortunes if we look at The Big D's will for example, so what's to stop elves who will be living for long periods of time from messing with the system so to speak.
Put some money into a bond and let it mature for a thousand years, for example. Imagine an RRSP when you work for a thousand years. Play the stock market. Or if you want to have some fun, play yourself as human and mess with people's minds like a couple of the Highlander episodes where people were sure they knew him from before. :P Other than for the thrill and maybe for a personal reason, such as the 'I'm looking for the man who shot my pa', Elves would have a better chance of striking it rich outside of the Shadows, or perhaps by lightly running them. When you live for a thousand years, you get to plan out your endgame a lot better. For humans, it's live every day to the fullest, it might be your last. With elves, if they take care of themselves and stay out of trouble, unless you start adding medical conditions and such given the pollution and so forth, elves could easily outnumber the rest of the races really soon (in their timeframe). |
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Sep 22 2006, 05:27 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 12-August 06 Member No.: 9,097 |
Slight tangent: is it ever actually established in canon that orks and trolls have a biologically shorter life span than humans, or is their relatively short average life span due to the fact that they're more likely to live and work in dangeous environments than the other metatypes?
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Sep 22 2006, 05:43 AM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
I've heard that there are novels which suggest the former, I prefer to use the latter, since I'd rather not screw orks and trolls in my game anymore than they already are. There is enough elf worship in Shadowrun without making 20 year old orks look like Keith Richards after a bender. |
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Sep 22 2006, 08:08 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,754 |
IMC, life expectancy of the metatypes is all pseudoscience based on prejudice. Elves don't have superior longevity because of superior genes. They live longer because they get treated better than other metatypes, and orks and trolls live shorter lives because they're treated worse. People think they're immortal or live for hundreds of years because fiction such as LotRs say so and because their youthful appearance makes them age more gracefully. If sourcebooks say there's any actual science behind it, I reject it.
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Sep 22 2006, 08:12 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 153 Joined: 7-November 04 Member No.: 6,811 |
Some of the novels (Nosferatu springs immediately to mind) definitely say it's a biological thing. If it matters to you, it's also in Earthdawn. I could've sworn there's a SR4 referance to it being biological as well, but I can't find it in a quick search.
I don't particularly mind the Orks getting screwed longevity or the Elves being ubermanch; it fits the tone of SR fairly well that the universe doesn't play fair. |
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Sep 22 2006, 08:28 AM
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#18
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
For Orks, it is both. Many have normal human lifespans, barring violence, but a disproportionate number of born (rather than goblinized) Orks suffer from Methuselah syndrome, a fictionalized ork-only version of the real genetic disease progeria, which causes rapid aging.
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Sep 22 2006, 09:08 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
Reference? |
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Sep 22 2006, 09:54 AM
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#20
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
In-game it's not known how long the natural ifespan of elves (and dwarves too) is. It didn' pass enough time to see that. So all the people at the 6th world can do is "sit and wait". IEs are special case, yes. |
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Sep 22 2006, 02:03 PM
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#21
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
I ignore any "fast-aging" silliness in my games. I think the whole idea is ridiculous.
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Sep 22 2006, 02:20 PM
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#22
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Differences in aging rates between closely related species - even breeds of the same species - is so well established that I don't see how you can say it's "ridiculous." Example: with modern medicine, humans live an average of 76 years. Chimpanzees, with modern medicine in pampered captivity, average 50 years. Example: the average lifespan of a bulldog is 6.7 years. The average for a border collie is 13 years. That an ork or troll might have a shorter lifespan than humans is far from ridiculous. Unfair, maybe, but genetics often are unfair. |
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Sep 22 2006, 02:36 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
I've kind of compromised in my head that orcs and trolls reach maturity faster than humans, but then they remain mid-range adult like for a long time. Only towards the end of their 60 years or whatever do they go through a rapid decline. So an orc would hit full-grown adulthood in the mid-teens, then age more slowly so that humans would catch up at around forty five. However, at fifty orcs start to get rickety and a 60 year old orc could pass as an 80 year old human.
That's just my rationalization. In regards to the player with the D&D type elf character. Whether or not he actually is immortal (or relatively so), there's no reason that he wouldn't think that he is. Hell, let him think he's automatically gonna be a mage too, if he just studies hard enough... ;) |
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Sep 22 2006, 02:44 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 25-February 05 Member No.: 7,119 |
Somewhere in canon it was said that Orcs and Trolls that were born that way have average lifespans of the mid-30's and mi-40's respectively. On the other hand, those who were born as humans and goblinized will still have a human's normal lifespan, but they typically have mental problems from the trauma of goblinization.
Unfortunately I don't have access to my books at the moment, but when I get a chance I'll see if I can't hunt down canon references. I seem to recall it getting brought up somewhere in second edition. |
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Sep 22 2006, 02:48 PM
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#25
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
The Elvis lifespan is entirely dependant upon how many Elvis sighting there are per year multiplied with the amount of Elvis shamans there are in Las Vegas.
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