 Elvish Life Span, Are they Immortals? |
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 Sep 22 2006, 08:20 PM
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#51
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 153 Joined: 7-November 04 Member No.: 6,811  |
To use a bit more modern concept for what I'm trying to say: You invest in an Ork laborer the same way you invest in a janitor. You invest in an Ork laborer the same way you invest in a Mexican day-laborer you pick up at the Home Depot. |
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Sep 22 2006, 08:42 PM
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#52
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Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 26-February 02 From: DC/NOVA, USA Member No.: 80 |
Well, the elf and dwarf lifespans in SR3 were said to have been estimated by looking at key aging factors in their genetics (telomeres as well as other markers), and estimated with some degree of error. I usually tell my players that they won't have to worry about aging for at least a good 50-100 years. It's rare that this becomes a factor in a player's decision of race for their character, and if a player happens to mention that they picked an elf because they want to be "immortal", I usually give them a wakeup call by mentioning that if they want to be immortal, they will need to retire from shadowrunning ASAP, as that diminishes their life expectancy by orders of magnitude... :)
As for the orks and trolls, I think, like many things related to humans and metahumans, there's both a genetic and an environmental factor. They have already been stated as maturing faster physically, hitting puberty at least a year or two before the average human. That, combined with the fecundity of ork childbirth (litters of four to eight, talk about a daycare nightmare) are supposed to explain how a small population of goblinized orks can suddenly become the second highest metahuman type counted in any unbiased poll. It also lends some teeth to the fears that the Humanis types have that orks will outbreed and overrun the "pure" humans. However, I think that other than their early maturity, their bodies don't typically age at an accelerated rate during their lifespan, it's just that the wear and tear of having a large body, combined with substandard living conditions, tends to increase the chances of death by natural causes. For example, Andre the Giant, one of the largest humans known, and a fair model for for trollish size and health, suffered from complications due to a condition of pituitary gigantism. He died at the age of 46 due to congestive heart failure, which was attributed to his abnormal size. The bodies of trolls especially would suffer from similar stresses during their lifespan. Add into that the poor conditions of living in Barrens-style neighborhoods, exposed to high levels of toxins, radiation, and disease, while receiving substandard health care, if any, and you can end up with numbers that show the average lifespan as significantly less than a humans, even though exceptional individuals would probably be capable of living as long as any human. However, once again I usually end up reminding my players that the odds of their characters living that long, or the campaign lasting that long, are extremely slim. Plus, it gives a likely reason why orks and trolls, while comprising a smaller percentage of the populace, are more likely to become runners in comparison -- if you can't earn enough money during your lifespan to retire comfortably by legal means, then you can always try to get rich quick by turning to a life of crime... |
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Sep 22 2006, 08:52 PM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 20-December 05 Member No.: 8,088 |
In 1st Edition Shadowrun (so it's gotta be true!) elves were estimated to have a 200 year life span.
This bugs me because of the fact of Shadowrun fiction having "old man" elves in it with grey hair,wrinkles, etc...which by definition should be impossible. |
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Sep 22 2006, 09:16 PM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
Spike babies.
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Sep 22 2006, 09:39 PM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 5-December 05 From: Crying in the wilderness Member No.: 8,047 |
I had a player ask me to make the elven character for them, to twist the knife slightly I awarded them the free one point merit long lived. You can imagine the reaction, cool but pointless.
As elves have yet to die of natural courses it would seem superfluous to worry within a typical frame work of a game. I am having lots of fun with the concept of unwieldy human psychology in a being that lives two hundrd years plus. Ork and troll culture is matureing at an excellerated rate to to their close communities and high fatalies. What of elves and their nations/ individuals in human societies. The very unknown length of life span is a roleplaying oppertunity as the elf dosen't have the comfort of human parameters. |
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Sep 22 2006, 09:47 PM
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#56
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
An even better question is "why keep a seventy-year-old elf when he commands an absurd salary due to his seniority and experience?".
There are mandatory retirement ages for a reason. Companies don't want to pay the old guys $100,000 per year when they can hire an 18-year-old give him $100,000 and pay him $10,000 dollars per year to do the same job. |
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Sep 22 2006, 09:55 PM
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#57
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Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 26-February 02 From: DC/NOVA, USA Member No.: 80 |
Oh, and about the real immortal elves -- those you'd have to ask a Great Dragon about. Although that's guaranteed to shorten your lifespan considerably... :D
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Sep 22 2006, 10:59 PM
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#58
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
A gene defect maybe or the good old SR answer: magic? ;) |
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Sep 22 2006, 11:02 PM
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#59
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
Maybe they're just half-elves?
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Sep 22 2006, 11:49 PM
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#60
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I didn't intend for it to sound that way (if it was me you're referring to)... it was more of an attempt at justifying yet another screwy SR thing with bad RL science. Sorry if it came off that way. To tell you the truth, it has been kinda bitchy/angry around here lately... it's not just you feeling that. |
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Sep 22 2006, 11:55 PM
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#61
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
for something perhaps more helpful, or just fuel for the fire, ED and SR are supposed to be connected. Well, In ED , when they WOULD know the lifespans, it says quite plainly that orks lifespans are appx to their 60's, elves to appx 250 (although it does say there are some examples of elves living to 300 or even 400, not counting the legends of the "great elves"). and IIRC trolls were listed as 80's, and some humans being able to live to the 90's-100, and dwarves 150 (I think). So basically orks do have shorter life spans, not factoring in that they usually died younger becuase of violence.
SR and ED are supposed to coincide with these sorts of things, so that should be accurate for SR. If you choose to acknowledge or use it or not is up to the GM, as always. |
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Sep 23 2006, 03:51 AM
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#62
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
So ED lifespans were somewhat longer?
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Sep 23 2006, 04:05 AM
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#63
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
no not really. Rather, those are the life spans, not the average life spans that everyone always figures in with things like disease, violence, etc. Hell in ED, orks lived closer to 30 years 'cause they were so frickin brutal/violent. And they drank Huurlg.
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Sep 23 2006, 02:10 PM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 308 Joined: 1-June 06 From: Nova Scotia, Canada Member No.: 8,631 |
What is the relationship between Shadowrun and Earthdawn (now licensed to Living Room Games)? Will the storylines still be linked even though the games are now produced by different companies? We won't deny that the Shadowrun and Earthdawn storylines have been linked in the past (in the cycle of magic, Earthdawn is the Fourth World and Shadowrun is the Sixth World). While FanPro will not ignore these links, we have no intention of making them a primary focus of the game. The FanPro Shadowrun and LRG Earthdawn developers have a good working relationship, and will make every effort not to conflict or contradict each other's storylines. Taken from Fanpro's FAQ. So, FASA was building the major links between the two, but Fanpro has decided that it's not a major focus of the game. And while that connection does add to the whole thing, there are a number of players, especially coming into SR3 late or with SR4 that will never have played or maybe even heard of Earthdawn to know of these connections. Myself, I do own a bunch of ED books, but the connections, while making wo RPGs tied together with similar theme and mythology and such, works best so long as the company is actively making the connections. Here, they're just going to try not to screw things up for the other people. :P Now, let's say that I go with the ED connection. But how do the elves who just recently were created know that they would live for that long? The immortal elves and scientists telling them about it, in the Tir Tairngire book. So, then we've got elves living 'forever', orks and trolls living 30-40 years, humans living a normal life span and dwarves living a fairly normal 'human' lifespan. I suppose that's a good reason for metahuman hatred, though I would see more people focusing on elves. Sort of like the issues people had with Vulcans in Star Trek: Enterprise; but I suppose that racism was due to their actions, not their biology. |
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Sep 23 2006, 05:40 PM
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#65
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
there's an interesting thing from Humains in I think the Loose Alliances book adressing the elven lifespan. They talk about how elves that are in high corporate positions aren't retiring like they should when they hit 50-60's and arent' clearing those jobs up for honest human executives. That eventually they will dominate all of the higher positions in corporations simply because of life span. Because of this, humans should oppose elf promotions, because they will eventually take over the coroporate elite. Interesting. Scary when Humanis seemingly makes a bit of sense. because theoretically it could happen. *cue twilight zone music*
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Sep 24 2006, 12:01 PM
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#66
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
LRG seems to be in serious (financial) trouble and have pushed back the release of new books. There wasn't a new metaplot-heavy book planned n the near future, so I doubt they will impact tht crossover of ED and SR in any time soon. Same goes for RedBrick (not the trouble, only the latter). |
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Sep 24 2006, 12:04 PM
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#67
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
<parannoia mode> Yeah. Theoretically. </paranoia mode> Serioulsy, do all elves want to work their whole life? Be a wage-slave for 250 years, that sounds great. :| |
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Sep 24 2006, 12:08 PM
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#68
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
No, not all, but their are people who will spend over sixty years out of their lifespan working. Some people have messed up priorities, not everyone even plays Shadowrun.
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Sep 24 2006, 12:08 PM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 308 Joined: 1-June 06 From: Nova Scotia, Canada Member No.: 8,631 |
They may not want to work for 250 years or so, but the fact remains that they /could/. Biogtry and racism never needed facts, just fear. And that's what gives it its power. It's like a conspiracy, it doesn't have to make any sense, it just has to be beliveable. |
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Sep 24 2006, 12:27 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 10-June 06 Member No.: 8,691 |
Ok, it is clear that shadowrun and earthdawn are related (both games feature Harlequin, for example). Now, elves are expected to live centuries, (But it depens on the specific races. Blood Elves, for example, lived considerably longer than their brethren) while orks and trolls a lot shorter. It is possible, though, as many mentionned, that is it a direct consequence of the orks and trolls more violent and difficult lifestyle. Now, if you want the explanation about the immortal elves like Harlequin, I'm about to spoil you an earthdawn story plot. Let's just say Harlequin did something in the Triumph Fortress that "made" him immortal. It has nothing to do with his elven nature. |
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Sep 24 2006, 12:28 PM
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#71
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Priceless! :D :love: @Drraagh: Good point, I agree completly. |
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Sep 24 2006, 02:19 PM
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#72
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Regardless, an elf in the workplace is a dangerous thing. We have a few different possibilities here... 1) The elf decides to work for hundreds of years and the corp lets him. Over the centuries he continues to gain seniority (even a promotion every 20 years will mean you'll be VP before he's dead) and choke out people with a shorter life, not to mention continue to get higher and higher salaries as seniority earns them regular raises. 2) The elf retires after a set amount of time, but the corporation will continue to pay 2/3rds (or 1/2) of his salary as retirement until he dies. The corporation is now paying a tremendous amount of money for someone who doesn't provide anything. Soon you have a very small minority of people turning a good company into a GM situation, where more money is going to pay for retirement than for the actual production of whatever it is they make. 3) The elf retires (forced or otherwise) after a set amount of time and retirement monies have a cap (it's only the 401k or only pays out for a set number of years). The elf now reenters the job force with more training, experience, knowledge and abilities than the human competitors. Suddenly the mid-level jobs are crowded out, forcing humans to take the stupid jobs because they're always comparatively under-qualified. A master's degree in business is nothing compared to 40 years as VP of marketing. 4) On top of that, our modern culture seems to espouse the view that elves are simply more attractive. Now let's not kid ourselves, how we look has a great bearing on how well we do in the business world. Even an elf fresh out of college will beat an equally skilled human. They look sharper, and they'll cost less in medical costs towards the end. So even the entry level jobs are being crowded out. Yes, I have to agree my friends, while trolls and orks may look frightening, and we have to be on guard against their stealing our daughters, its the elves who are the true threat, since they want to steal our way of life. Shut elves out of the work-force. Support mandated 'retirement periods' on elves and dwarves and support human-only jobs. Vote for proposal 503 this September. Human is best. Humanis. |
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Sep 24 2006, 03:06 PM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 308 Joined: 1-June 06 From: Nova Scotia, Canada Member No.: 8,631 |
We have to worry about elves. THey'll not just try to steal our daughters, but our wives and our girlfriends and our gay friends and pretty much anyone else. At least if you tend to the standard assumption that charisma is looks alone and the higher it is, the hotter you are. :P |
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Sep 24 2006, 04:39 PM
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#74
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Superbly put, polyclub-brother. But not only must one be concerned about elves that remain in the workforce; one must consider the effects of long term elven investment. Why you or I might put our money into a pension scheme in the hopes of retirement, saving enough to see us through our end of days, but an elf will have the view of steady investment, buying into companies, etcetera. And the logical conclusion of this steady progression is the emergence of an elven upper class accumulating an ever greater percentage of the World's wealth. And once in place, who could ever break through the new glass ceiling of elven plutocracy? And if this has occured to us, you can be certain that it has occurred to the elves. Even now, you can be certain they draw their plans not merely against us, but against our children and our children's children. :D Heh! Stepping out of character, Nezumi that was a great piece of writing. I did a little excerpt from a polyclub meeting piece of fiction and I'd love to For anyone about to sign up for Humanis, there are a few counter-arguments for those who can put their fear to one side for a moment. For the first, the whole premise is one of finite wealth. In viewing humanity and metahumanity as a whole society, no regard has been made towards the beneficial effects of having members who may live for three hundred or more years. Can you imagine Shiawase polluting the rivers and seas when the CEOs know that in a hundred years time they'll be living in a toxic waste pile? Can you think of the benefit to society when the hindsight that prevents wars and oppression isn't reset every 50 years, but endures for centuries? And not to mention the potential wealth generation of having people in the workforce who do have two hundred years experience. What matters it if some people have a larger slice of the pie when the pie is so much bigger than before? Secondly, little regard is made to the population numbers. Repeatedly in nature, we see long-lived creatures with low rates of reproduction. Even if elves did not naturally follow this pattern which I certainly expect they would, birth control technology is available and we can expect normal social patterns to have a limiting effect on childbirth. After all, who wants thirty children? Elves are a minority of (meta- )humanity and are likely to remain so. Thirdly, the technology is already here to stave off the ageing process. And though it isn't perfect yet, it's getting better every year. The problem of hyper-long lived people gradually taking over must already be confronted. And we should worry less about the elves that naturally have a long life and perhaps have biological and psychological ways of dealing with this inherent in them, but about those who acquire such long lives through affluence and technology. For the second, there's no regard to the numbers involved. |
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Sep 24 2006, 05:09 PM
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#75
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Yes, you are welcome to use what I wrote :) I love to see the racists portrayed a little more... real.
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