National Militaries, vs. corp militaries Options

[Angelone]

I don't know if it mentions anything in 4th ed. or not so I'm gonna go with my (lack of) knowledge of militaries in SR.

First off how big are they? Today the US military has roughly 1 million soldiers, with the fall of the US and the rise of the corps. how big can it really be? What type of technology do they have compared to the corps.? The US is an example the same thing happened all over the world.

The only corporate military I can remember any kind of numbers on is Aztechnology which has 150,000 troops and Aztlan national military is 50,000. Now not the best example since they are basically one and the same.

Has there ever been a showdown between a national and corporate military? How bout one with a military that is worth something? I hear about corps treading softly around national armies but is it more of a let them think they're in charge thing or is it a legit fear of getting torn up?

Finally if national armies are more powerful than corporate forces why not use them to curtail the worst of the corps. excesses? Something along the lines of corp_01 dumps hella toxins somewhere, why don't governments say "Corp_01 you've ruined your own lands, you'll not ruin mine!" and release the hounds of war as it were? Sure there's the bribes, but what else?

[Schaeffer]

As a check to corporate greed? Who makes all of the neat toys used by the world's armies? I'll bet Ares contributes a lot to the stuff fielded by the UCAS, for example. If a government started using their army as a stick against corporate excesses, I'd think they'd find their supply lines drying up very quickly.

The national governments seem to exist only at the whim of the AAA's.

[Sicarius]

[I]take a look at the Renraku arcology shut down. Despite the desire of Renraku to handle it in house, ultimately when the UCAS brought out the military Renraku had no choice but to take a back seat. Corporations have neither the will nor the numbers to fight a sustained military conflict, where the NAN,UCAS,CAS and Aztlan(exception to the rule) has proved willing to do. And while the Nation-States would be hamstrung by the corps refusal to sell military materials, the corps would suffer from such a move too. after all there isn't much of a market for tanks,apcs, fighter jets, etc on the civilian market.

What cases of large corp on corp warfare or corp on nation state have there been? the attack against Aztlan when they nationalized corporate assets is the only one that comes to mind for me. Now the cases where corps of bankrolled national wars for their own purposes... much more numerous.

[Schaeffer]

[JongWK]

Don't forget President Colloton's Military Recovery Act (mentioned in Runner Havens).

[Kagetenshi]

[Slithery D]

Military information can be gleaned from SoNA. UCAS has 4 regular Army divisions, CAS has 5, with worse equipment but better training. UCAS has some number of full carriers, the CAS has a lot of submarines and some small carriers, plus a unique sub carrier. I don't remember if they give numbers on fighter/bomber squadrons.

Japanese numbers of carriers were given in Cyberpirates. I believe it was six. Two divisions were in San Fran, I believe, prior to 2063 when some obeyed the recall. A similar or greater number were surely in the Phillipines as well, with some detachments also in Peru and northern Australia. Given the relative Japan/UCAS/CAS populations, that suggests that Japan is slightly more militarized and/or has few troops actually in the home islands. That would explain why they had to be recalled for disaster relief.

I guarantee you that no corporation with the special exception of Aztechnology has so much as two divisions of troops worldwide. Nations have taxes to support large armies and large amounts of land they have to defend. Corps have small facilities to defend and the cost of maintaining armed forces comes out of profit. The only purpose of corporate militaries is to threaten small countries or medium ones if they all act togther (Aztlan/Ensenada crisis). What they have will be heavy on aircraft and ships, low on ground troops, very low on tanks.

The megacorps exist through totally implausible sufferance of their host nations, and an entirely insane legal decision with no basis in logic or reality. If the world's nations wanted their sovereignity back by force, they could take it. Or at least that was the case when they were founded. All the megas now have minor nuke arsenals for deterrance as well as stuff like Matrix viruses and grid control capabilities, unknown bioweapons, and Thor shots for strategic deterrance. Not to mention coordinated economic chaos and world wide depressions they could cause just by fighting, let alone coordinating globally through the Corporate Court.

But if it came to a straight up fight and the big countries were willing to take a 25-50% hit to their economies and lose a few cities, they'd be able to wipe out the megas military assets with no problem.

[SL James]

[PBTHHHHT]

But what are the parameters in the Open Challenge in Desert Wars? Because if it's equal numbers on both sides, then yes, I can see the Corp military winning because of better training and equipment, especially against regular units. But I wonder how much larger the government militaries are compared to the corporation, plus what about the government special forces, were those used in the Open Challenge? We don't know and can only guess.

[SL James]

Considering that the Desert Wars encompasses every other type of warfare, I would suspect specfor are involved—on both sides. However, it's most likely Infantry vs Infantry (well, maybe Mechanized Infantry). The rules are most likely worked out by armies of lawyers for months beforehand.

[Angelone]

Good points all.

Is it logical to say military numbers are close to what they are today? Being roughly 1% of the population in UCAS, CAS, and possibly the NAN.

[SL James]

For the most part, I have long treated the UCAS military like what the US military was like before World War 2.

[emo samurai]

I don't know much about military history. What was it like?

And aren't the militaries supposed to have the best tech, a la Gibson, where all black IC originates from the military?

[Butterblume]

The best units from some of the corps would be on par with the best units from nation states. One step below, every major nation state has a big numeric advantage.

[Kagetenshi]

I'd say they'd be better. Imagine the military-industrial complex of today, only the industrial end of it keeps the good stuff to itself.

~J

[Angelone]

Anybody have the old Cybertechnology book handy? I seem to remember it had something about soldiers detailing gear and cyber. I think it was for the UCAS/CAS specifically, I think even the basic soldier had atleast a smartlink, and maybe cybereyes. Armored jackets was the standard bodyarmor, and they used one of the Colt assault rifles.

[SL James]

There really wasn't much if any of a standing army in the U.S. before World War II (or afterwards for a while), and most of the military was drawn from state militias—including all the major conflicts of the 19th and early 20th centuries (which is why you get units in the Civil War like the 54th Massachusetts Regiment). I mean, consider this: When General Pershing was hunting down Pancho Villa, he was commanding half of the entire US Army (around 12,000 soldiers, compared to the 4,000 (1/4 of the Army) hunting Geronimo in the 1880s). The militias were formed into the National Guard in the 1930s and were the foundation of the military's reserve units. When World War II began, they were activated along with the much smaller active Army. Then the Army begin reorganizing and fielding its own numerous divisions in both theaters, as well as creating new ones out of whole cloth (like the Airborne divisions) as it essentially took over the national guard during the war.
Advancement wasn't as regimented (so to speak) as it is now, nor was there any of this "Up or Out" stuff in the officer corps like there is now. There would be, for example, men who were sergeants for 20 years. At the same time, you had West Pointers like Eisenhower and MacArthur who became young generals without ever really experiencing combat (this is part of the reason why MacArthur may have been one of the worst generals the Army ever had). Draftees could become officers if they were a college graduate and showed leadership potential. However, it wasn't really their choice.

EDIT: The Special Forces Trooper in Cybertechnology sucks ass. The stats written up for Brainscan are much better. Even if you assume they are only going to put as much money into cyber as they spend on training (which is still several hundred thousand), you could outfit them much better. The skills are also too narrow, but that's also a failing of SR2's skills (e.g, Firearms). What I fail to understand is the insistence on giving commandos cyber-senses and cyberware communications systems when the external versions have served them pretty well for decades already IRL. The only useful piece of cyber in that event may (may) be a datajack and a transducer. Everything else can be done externally, although a cyberware tactical computer would probably have more utility than an external one in terms of speed and interoperability with the brain of the user. I'd say the external one replaces their SUT skill instead of adding to it, which alone would make it untenable for most specfor leaders).

Some SR3 bioware (and cyber, maybe) would be more useful, like the sleep regulator, than stupid crap like a pain editor.

Anyway, what you're describing is more like the cybered soldiers in Brainscan. The SF trooper in Cybertechnology had an Ares Alpha, Colt Manhunter, and Medium Military Armor.

As for Shadowrun, the number of paramilitary groups is nothing short of amazing. The state National Guards or the Metroplex Guards are suggested as engaging in permanent active domestic operations (especially in Seattle). NAGNA also described the creation of "Urban Militias" which were paramilitary-trained and armed, and which didn't fall under the Guard (though they may have been organized under various State Defense Forces/Militias, which are separate from the Guard and cannot be federalized). The FedPols (Federal Capitol Police Force) also incorporated the DC National Guard, and can be assumed to be a paramilitary organization. One of the most blatant militarizations of an existing paramilitary organization is the Texas Rangers (There are a whopping 118 Rangers). Likewise, most State Police departments are organized and trained as a paramilitary organization (especially since, in largely rural or otherwise large and remote states, one or two officers are basically on their own with only their training and whatever weapons they are carrying).

[Angelone]

Hmm... could have sworn it had not only special forces but also grunts.

I believe the the reason for the cyberversions is they are harder to damage and near impossible to lose w/o well decapitation, but that would basically end all need to communicate anyway.

[SL James]

All you need is a piece of tape for any loose mics/earpieces. Problem solved. As for the senses, they would be integrated into a helmet, or something even smaller (considering the stuff that can be put into glasses in SR1-3, let alone SR4).

[Slithery D]

In evaluating cyber use by national militaries, you need to consider force mixes. The UCAS/CAS are more insular, focused on neighboring threats, so they don't interfere overseas to any extent and don't need nearly as many expedionary forces like the Marine's or light/Airborne divisions, so the proportion of infantry will be even lower than it is today. Tankers and artillerymen don't need improved reflexes or tougher bodies. Rigging 'ware is probably pretty common, though, especially the cheap stuff if you're using SR4. Drones should be ubiquitous in 2070 military use.

I suppose one could justify (especially at SR4 costs) using some basic cyber in the (relatively few) dismounted regular infantry and even more in the special forces. Cyber for a longer enlistment term and higher pay would probably seem like a good deal for both sides.

[Slithery D]

[Sicarius]

[SL James]

And generally get them.

The UCAS also had a perfectly legal rationale for taking over (and having the decision stand with the Corp Court) insofar as there was now a nuclear threat within Seattle that threatened the UCAS, and thereby extending beyond Renraku's jurisdiction.

[hyzmarca]

There is also the fact that Renraku owed the UCAS a large amount of money for services rendered during the Shutdown crisis (the containment of Deus' forces and eventual recaputre of the Arcology). Renraku could have gotten the Arcology back but in order to do that it would have had to pay all of the expenses incurred y the UCAS as a result of the Shutdown pluss a reasonable fee.
Considering how much time and effort would be required to make the Arc livable again along with those fees it would be cheaper for Renraku to just build a new Arcology somewhere else so they forfeited the building. The only thing they could hope to gain from the Arc are Deus drones and othe rprototype technologu that they could reverse engineer and the risks there are far greater than the rewards. Abandoning it was financially wise.

[Wounded Ronin]

Very insightful thread. Good explanations.