I don't know if it mentions anything in 4th ed. or not so I'm gonna go with my (lack of) knowledge of militaries in SR.
First off how big are they? Today the US military has roughly 1 million soldiers, with the fall of the US and the rise of the corps. how big can it really be? What type of technology do they have compared to the corps.? The US is an example the same thing happened all over the world.
The only corporate military I can remember any kind of numbers on is Aztechnology which has 150,000 troops and Aztlan national military is 50,000. Now not the best example since they are basically one and the same.
Has there ever been a showdown between a national and corporate military? How bout one with a military that is worth something? I hear about corps treading softly around national armies but is it more of a let them think they're in charge thing or is it a legit fear of getting torn up?
Finally if national armies are more powerful than corporate forces why not use them to curtail the worst of the corps. excesses? Something along the lines of corp_01 dumps hella toxins somewhere, why don't governments say "Corp_01 you've ruined your own lands, you'll not ruin mine!" and release the hounds of war as it were? Sure there's the bribes, but what else?
Full Version: National Militaries
As a check to corporate greed? Who makes all of the neat toys used by the world's armies? I'll bet Ares contributes a lot to the stuff fielded by the UCAS, for example. If a government started using their army as a stick against corporate excesses, I'd think they'd find their supply lines drying up very quickly.
The national governments seem to exist only at the whim of the AAA's.
The national governments seem to exist only at the whim of the AAA's.
[I]take a look at the Renraku arcology shut down. Despite the desire of Renraku to handle it in house, ultimately when the UCAS brought out the military Renraku had no choice but to take a back seat. Corporations have neither the will nor the numbers to fight a sustained military conflict, where the NAN,UCAS,CAS and Aztlan(exception to the rule) has proved willing to do. And while the Nation-States would be hamstrung by the corps refusal to sell military materials, the corps would suffer from such a move too. after all there isn't much of a market for tanks,apcs, fighter jets, etc on the civilian market.
What cases of large corp on corp warfare or corp on nation state have there been? the attack against Aztlan when they nationalized corporate assets is the only one that comes to mind for me. Now the cases where corps of bankrolled national wars for their own purposes... much more numerous.
What cases of large corp on corp warfare or corp on nation state have there been? the attack against Aztlan when they nationalized corporate assets is the only one that comes to mind for me. Now the cases where corps of bankrolled national wars for their own purposes... much more numerous.
| QUOTE (Sicarius) |
| "take a look at the Renraku arcology shut down. Despite the desire of Renraku to handle it in house, ultimately when the UCAS brought out the military Renraku had no choice but to take a back seat. <snip>" |
Very good point, and one I had forgotten (not enough coffee yet I'm afraid).
Don't forget President Colloton's Military Recovery Act (mentioned in Runner Havens).
| QUOTE (Schaeffer) | ||
Very good point, and one I had forgotten (not enough coffee yet I'm afraid). |
Not actually a good point. The question isn't "can Renraku win", it's "is it worth it for Renraku to fight". The two are totally different questions, and the latter doesn't necessarily even have to factor in military might.
~J
Military information can be gleaned from SoNA. UCAS has 4 regular Army divisions, CAS has 5, with worse equipment but better training. UCAS has some number of full carriers, the CAS has a lot of submarines and some small carriers, plus a unique sub carrier. I don't remember if they give numbers on fighter/bomber squadrons.
Japanese numbers of carriers were given in Cyberpirates. I believe it was six. Two divisions were in San Fran, I believe, prior to 2063 when some obeyed the recall. A similar or greater number were surely in the Phillipines as well, with some detachments also in Peru and northern Australia. Given the relative Japan/UCAS/CAS populations, that suggests that Japan is slightly more militarized and/or has few troops actually in the home islands. That would explain why they had to be recalled for disaster relief.
I guarantee you that no corporation with the special exception of Aztechnology has so much as two divisions of troops worldwide. Nations have taxes to support large armies and large amounts of land they have to defend. Corps have small facilities to defend and the cost of maintaining armed forces comes out of profit. The only purpose of corporate militaries is to threaten small countries or medium ones if they all act togther (Aztlan/Ensenada crisis). What they have will be heavy on aircraft and ships, low on ground troops, very low on tanks.
The megacorps exist through totally implausible sufferance of their host nations, and an entirely insane legal decision with no basis in logic or reality. If the world's nations wanted their sovereignity back by force, they could take it. Or at least that was the case when they were founded. All the megas now have minor nuke arsenals for deterrance as well as stuff like Matrix viruses and grid control capabilities, unknown bioweapons, and Thor shots for strategic deterrance. Not to mention coordinated economic chaos and world wide depressions they could cause just by fighting, let alone coordinating globally through the Corporate Court.
But if it came to a straight up fight and the big countries were willing to take a 25-50% hit to their economies and lose a few cities, they'd be able to wipe out the megas military assets with no problem.
Japanese numbers of carriers were given in Cyberpirates. I believe it was six. Two divisions were in San Fran, I believe, prior to 2063 when some obeyed the recall. A similar or greater number were surely in the Phillipines as well, with some detachments also in Peru and northern Australia. Given the relative Japan/UCAS/CAS populations, that suggests that Japan is slightly more militarized and/or has few troops actually in the home islands. That would explain why they had to be recalled for disaster relief.
I guarantee you that no corporation with the special exception of Aztechnology has so much as two divisions of troops worldwide. Nations have taxes to support large armies and large amounts of land they have to defend. Corps have small facilities to defend and the cost of maintaining armed forces comes out of profit. The only purpose of corporate militaries is to threaten small countries or medium ones if they all act togther (Aztlan/Ensenada crisis). What they have will be heavy on aircraft and ships, low on ground troops, very low on tanks.
The megacorps exist through totally implausible sufferance of their host nations, and an entirely insane legal decision with no basis in logic or reality. If the world's nations wanted their sovereignity back by force, they could take it. Or at least that was the case when they were founded. All the megas now have minor nuke arsenals for deterrance as well as stuff like Matrix viruses and grid control capabilities, unknown bioweapons, and Thor shots for strategic deterrance. Not to mention coordinated economic chaos and world wide depressions they could cause just by fighting, let alone coordinating globally through the Corporate Court.
But if it came to a straight up fight and the big countries were willing to take a 25-50% hit to their economies and lose a few cities, they'd be able to wipe out the megas military assets with no problem.
| QUOTE (Angelone @ Sep 22 2006, 08:31 AM) |
| Has there ever been a showdown between a national and corporate military? How bout one with a military that is worth something? I hear about corps treading softly around national armies but is it more of a let them think they're in charge thing or is it a legit fear of getting torn up? |
Sort of. There's something called the Open Challenge in Desert Wars where any group can take on pretty much any other, and this is generally the only time that national militaries can participate. That said, none has ever beaten a corp military in a showdown.
See, here's the thing: Corp militaries aren't that big. Corp Shadowfiles listed the largest non-Aztechnology corp military is Ares' Light Regiment. However, the distinction between military and security forces ranges from blurry (Ares cross-training KE and Ares Arms Military Systems Division personnel) to nonexistent (S-K). At the same time, it's also out of date considering that there was a low-intensity corp war for ~1 year in the late '50s and since then Yamatetsu has fielded its own navy for hire.
Part of the other aspect is that corps aren't usually going to go to war with another nation, especially if it's just one corp, because the Corporate Court would not permit it for various reasons (including other corps' personnel being stuck in the middle), as well as the lack of utility of fielding large numbers of military personnel against a nation. Likewise, if a nation gets attacked its people will come together rather quickly to self-identify and fight back. No AAA is willing to lose all of its assets in a nation because it decided to engage in a standup fight with a nation.
As for a nation attacking a corp, well, how? Is the UCAS going to just bomb Essen or Vladivostok or Detroit into dust? How are they going to get away with not only fighting a corp, but in all likelihood fighting the nation in which the corp assets are located? That is, of course, assuming that the nation could field a force. Sure, the UCAS may have 4 active divisions, but consider this:
Half a division is deployed in Seattle as part of JTF-Seattle.
1.5-2 are probably sitting on the Sioux border at any given time.
One is on standby, having just been rotated off the line.
And the other half division is near DeeCee because there is a possibly hostile nation sitting within eyeshot of the capital.
CAS is even worse. Aztlan suggests (well, someone outright says) that there are more than 50,000 Aztlan/ACS soldiers holding the line around Austin. If the CAS was in any way expecting to shadow them, this alone would require all five active Army divisions (and then some).
What other militaries are there that are of a decent size and aren't stretched thin because of internal/external conflicts? Russia? No. Japan? No. China? Which state, but generally, No. Germany? Their military is a corporation. The UK? Maybe.
When the U.S. fractured, it left Russia as the only real power that could field 150-175,000 soldiers to sit on the Chinese border (which, btw, they did until recently). But they are stuck in an endless war in/with Yakut that has drained their military forces, while some of the Chinese states are again deserving on having soldiers mobilized on the border.
But what are the parameters in the Open Challenge in Desert Wars? Because if it's equal numbers on both sides, then yes, I can see the Corp military winning because of better training and equipment, especially against regular units. But I wonder how much larger the government militaries are compared to the corporation, plus what about the government special forces, were those used in the Open Challenge? We don't know and can only guess.
Considering that the Desert Wars encompasses every other type of warfare, I would suspect specfor are involved—on both sides. However, it's most likely Infantry vs Infantry (well, maybe Mechanized Infantry). The rules are most likely worked out by armies of lawyers for months beforehand.
| QUOTE (JongWK) |
| Don't forget President Colloton's Military Recovery Act (mentioned in Runner Havens). |
What the hell does that mean?
Good points all.
Is it logical to say military numbers are close to what they are today? Being roughly 1% of the population in UCAS, CAS, and possibly the NAN.
Is it logical to say military numbers are close to what they are today? Being roughly 1% of the population in UCAS, CAS, and possibly the NAN.
For the most part, I have long treated the UCAS military like what the US military was like before World War 2.
I don't know much about military history. What was it like?
And aren't the militaries supposed to have the best tech, a la Gibson, where all black IC originates from the military?
And aren't the militaries supposed to have the best tech, a la Gibson, where all black IC originates from the military?
The best units from some of the corps would be on par with the best units from nation states. One step below, every major nation state has a big numeric advantage.
I'd say they'd be better. Imagine the military-industrial complex of today, only the industrial end of it keeps the good stuff to itself.
~J
~J
Anybody have the old Cybertechnology book handy? I seem to remember it had something about soldiers detailing gear and cyber. I think it was for the UCAS/CAS specifically, I think even the basic soldier had atleast a smartlink, and maybe cybereyes. Armored jackets was the standard bodyarmor, and they used one of the Colt assault rifles.
There really wasn't much if any of a standing army in the U.S. before World War II (or afterwards for a while), and most of the military was drawn from state militias—including all the major conflicts of the 19th and early 20th centuries (which is why you get units in the Civil War like the 54th Massachusetts Regiment). I mean, consider this: When General Pershing was hunting down Pancho Villa, he was commanding half of the entire US Army (around 12,000 soldiers, compared to the 4,000 (1/4 of the Army) hunting Geronimo in the 1880s). The militias were formed into the National Guard in the 1930s and were the foundation of the military's reserve units. When World War II began, they were activated along with the much smaller active Army. Then the Army begin reorganizing and fielding its own numerous divisions in both theaters, as well as creating new ones out of whole cloth (like the Airborne divisions) as it essentially took over the national guard during the war.
Advancement wasn't as regimented (so to speak) as it is now, nor was there any of this "Up or Out" stuff in the officer corps like there is now. There would be, for example, men who were sergeants for 20 years. At the same time, you had West Pointers like Eisenhower and MacArthur who became young generals without ever really experiencing combat (this is part of the reason why MacArthur may have been one of the worst generals the Army ever had). Draftees could become officers if they were a college graduate and showed leadership potential. However, it wasn't really their choice.
EDIT: The Special Forces Trooper in Cybertechnology sucks ass. The stats written up for Brainscan are much better. Even if you assume they are only going to put as much money into cyber as they spend on training (which is still several hundred thousand), you could outfit them much better. The skills are also too narrow, but that's also a failing of SR2's skills (e.g, Firearms). What I fail to understand is the insistence on giving commandos cyber-senses and cyberware communications systems when the external versions have served them pretty well for decades already IRL. The only useful piece of cyber in that event may (may) be a datajack and a transducer. Everything else can be done externally, although a cyberware tactical computer would probably have more utility than an external one in terms of speed and interoperability with the brain of the user. I'd say the external one replaces their SUT skill instead of adding to it, which alone would make it untenable for most specfor leaders).
Some SR3 bioware (and cyber, maybe) would be more useful, like the sleep regulator, than stupid crap like a pain editor.
Anyway, what you're describing is more like the cybered soldiers in Brainscan. The SF trooper in Cybertechnology had an Ares Alpha, Colt Manhunter, and Medium Military Armor.
As for Shadowrun, the number of paramilitary groups is nothing short of amazing. The state National Guards or the Metroplex Guards are suggested as engaging in permanent active domestic operations (especially in Seattle). NAGNA also described the creation of "Urban Militias" which were paramilitary-trained and armed, and which didn't fall under the Guard (though they may have been organized under various State Defense Forces/Militias, which are separate from the Guard and cannot be federalized). The FedPols (Federal Capitol Police Force) also incorporated the DC National Guard, and can be assumed to be a paramilitary organization. One of the most blatant militarizations of an existing paramilitary organization is the Texas Rangers (There are a whopping 118 Rangers). Likewise, most State Police departments are organized and trained as a paramilitary organization (especially since, in largely rural or otherwise large and remote states, one or two officers are basically on their own with only their training and whatever weapons they are carrying).
Advancement wasn't as regimented (so to speak) as it is now, nor was there any of this "Up or Out" stuff in the officer corps like there is now. There would be, for example, men who were sergeants for 20 years. At the same time, you had West Pointers like Eisenhower and MacArthur who became young generals without ever really experiencing combat (this is part of the reason why MacArthur may have been one of the worst generals the Army ever had). Draftees could become officers if they were a college graduate and showed leadership potential. However, it wasn't really their choice.
EDIT: The Special Forces Trooper in Cybertechnology sucks ass. The stats written up for Brainscan are much better. Even if you assume they are only going to put as much money into cyber as they spend on training (which is still several hundred thousand), you could outfit them much better. The skills are also too narrow, but that's also a failing of SR2's skills (e.g, Firearms). What I fail to understand is the insistence on giving commandos cyber-senses and cyberware communications systems when the external versions have served them pretty well for decades already IRL. The only useful piece of cyber in that event may (may) be a datajack and a transducer. Everything else can be done externally, although a cyberware tactical computer would probably have more utility than an external one in terms of speed and interoperability with the brain of the user. I'd say the external one replaces their SUT skill instead of adding to it, which alone would make it untenable for most specfor leaders).
Some SR3 bioware (and cyber, maybe) would be more useful, like the sleep regulator, than stupid crap like a pain editor.
Anyway, what you're describing is more like the cybered soldiers in Brainscan. The SF trooper in Cybertechnology had an Ares Alpha, Colt Manhunter, and Medium Military Armor.
As for Shadowrun, the number of paramilitary groups is nothing short of amazing. The state National Guards or the Metroplex Guards are suggested as engaging in permanent active domestic operations (especially in Seattle). NAGNA also described the creation of "Urban Militias" which were paramilitary-trained and armed, and which didn't fall under the Guard (though they may have been organized under various State Defense Forces/Militias, which are separate from the Guard and cannot be federalized). The FedPols (Federal Capitol Police Force) also incorporated the DC National Guard, and can be assumed to be a paramilitary organization. One of the most blatant militarizations of an existing paramilitary organization is the Texas Rangers (There are a whopping 118 Rangers). Likewise, most State Police departments are organized and trained as a paramilitary organization (especially since, in largely rural or otherwise large and remote states, one or two officers are basically on their own with only their training and whatever weapons they are carrying).
Hmm... could have sworn it had not only special forces but also grunts.
I believe the the reason for the cyberversions is they are harder to damage and near impossible to lose w/o well decapitation, but that would basically end all need to communicate anyway.
I believe the the reason for the cyberversions is they are harder to damage and near impossible to lose w/o well decapitation, but that would basically end all need to communicate anyway.
All you need is a piece of tape for any loose mics/earpieces. Problem solved. As for the senses, they would be integrated into a helmet, or something even smaller (considering the stuff that can be put into glasses in SR1-3, let alone SR4).
In evaluating cyber use by national militaries, you need to consider force mixes. The UCAS/CAS are more insular, focused on neighboring threats, so they don't interfere overseas to any extent and don't need nearly as many expedionary forces like the Marine's or light/Airborne divisions, so the proportion of infantry will be even lower than it is today. Tankers and artillerymen don't need improved reflexes or tougher bodies. Rigging 'ware is probably pretty common, though, especially the cheap stuff if you're using SR4. Drones should be ubiquitous in 2070 military use.
I suppose one could justify (especially at SR4 costs) using some basic cyber in the (relatively few) dismounted regular infantry and even more in the special forces. Cyber for a longer enlistment term and higher pay would probably seem like a good deal for both sides.
I suppose one could justify (especially at SR4 costs) using some basic cyber in the (relatively few) dismounted regular infantry and even more in the special forces. Cyber for a longer enlistment term and higher pay would probably seem like a good deal for both sides.
| QUOTE (SL James @ Sep 22 2006, 12:23 PM) |
| As for a nation attacking a corp, well, how? Is the UCAS going to just bomb Essen or Vladivostok or Detroit into dust? How are they going to get away with not only fighting a corp, but in all likelihood fighting the nation in which the corp assets are located? That is, of course, assuming that the nation could field a force. Sure, the UCAS may have 4 active divisions, but consider this: Half a division is deployed in Seattle as part of JTF-Seattle. 1.5-2 are probably sitting on the Sioux border at any given time. One is on standby, having just been rotated off the line. And the other half division is near DeeCee because there is a possibly hostile nation sitting within eyeshot of the capital. CAS is even worse. Aztlan suggests (well, someone outright says) that there are more than 50,000 Aztlan/ACS soldiers holding the line around Austin. If the CAS was in any way expecting to shadow them, this alone would require all five active Army divisions (and then some). |
That Aztlan number was pre-Yucatan rebellion. Whether the number went back post-Yucatan, who knows. And whatever the writers thought, it always made more sense for the Aztlan forces to be defensive in nature. The CAS has owned Aztlan occupied Texas a lot more recently than Mexico owned the rest of Texas, and has a much bigger incentive to fight if it thought it could win.
Plus, Aztlan would have a huge insurgency problem if it ever pushed farther into Texas. If the CAS retook its lost territory it would have to control...San Antonio and a few spitball towns, many of which probably contain CAS sympathizers. If Aztlan took any CAS territory worth taking it would have several million pissed off, rabidly anti-Aztlan people it has to control. You think Texans own a lot of guns today? Imagine the paranoid sons of bitches who have a buried crate of assault rifles and ammo in their backyard. Hell, a lot of those 50,000 were probably busy chasing terrorists around rather than passively waiting for the CAS invasion.
So, no, in a realistic scenario the CAS doesn't really have much to fear. But I'll bet they've got three of those five active divisions in Texas anyway, with the others ready to redeploy pretty quickly if they're needed.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Not actually a good point. The question isn't "can Renraku win", it's "is it worth it for Renraku to fight". The two are totally different questions, and the latter doesn't necessarily even have to factor in military might. ~J |
The inability (or percieved inability) of the corp to handle the renraku shutdown would lead to their eventual dismemberment as a corp would it not? That would seem to indicate that it would be "worth it" to handle the shut down. At least how i interpreted the shadowtalk surrounding the event.
I think most agree that on a one on one basis the corporate military is likely better trained/better equipped than the national one. (why else are Firewatch teams the ones detonating nukes to kill of bizarre bug spirit invaders?) but all evidence seems to point to the fact that the corporations (again Aztlan being the exception) do not maintain militaries which can confront a nation-state in conventional military confrontation. and of course they don't, because that's not what corporations DO.
in the example above, the use of the UCAS military in the renraku shutdown was, arguably, a violation of the corp's sovereignty by another, the prevention of which is sort of the whole point of maintaining a military. Agreed thats not the only weapon in Renraku's arsenal, but its combined military,economic and political weight was insufficient compared to that of the UCAS in this case.
It's kind of a silly question, like arguing which plant produces better fruit an apple tree or a rose bush. The Apple tree (nation in this case) produces better fruit because that's what the tree does. Just part of the problem of the whole Corp extraterritoriality business. At least in my perception of the AAA corp model, they want all the advantages of state-hood with none of the disadvantages.
And generally get them.
The UCAS also had a perfectly legal rationale for taking over (and having the decision stand with the Corp Court) insofar as there was now a nuclear threat within Seattle that threatened the UCAS, and thereby extending beyond Renraku's jurisdiction.
The UCAS also had a perfectly legal rationale for taking over (and having the decision stand with the Corp Court) insofar as there was now a nuclear threat within Seattle that threatened the UCAS, and thereby extending beyond Renraku's jurisdiction.
There is also the fact that Renraku owed the UCAS a large amount of money for services rendered during the Shutdown crisis (the containment of Deus' forces and eventual recaputre of the Arcology). Renraku could have gotten the Arcology back but in order to do that it would have had to pay all of the expenses incurred y the UCAS as a result of the Shutdown pluss a reasonable fee.
Considering how much time and effort would be required to make the Arc livable again along with those fees it would be cheaper for Renraku to just build a new Arcology somewhere else so they forfeited the building. The only thing they could hope to gain from the Arc are Deus drones and othe rprototype technologu that they could reverse engineer and the risks there are far greater than the rewards. Abandoning it was financially wise.
Considering how much time and effort would be required to make the Arc livable again along with those fees it would be cheaper for Renraku to just build a new Arcology somewhere else so they forfeited the building. The only thing they could hope to gain from the Arc are Deus drones and othe rprototype technologu that they could reverse engineer and the risks there are far greater than the rewards. Abandoning it was financially wise.
Very insightful thread. Good explanations.
| QUOTE (Slithery D @ Sep 22 2006, 02:56 PM) |
| In evaluating cyber use by national militaries, you need to consider force mixes. The UCAS/CAS are more insular, focused on neighboring threats, so they don't interfere overseas to any extent and don't need nearly as many expedionary forces like the Marine's or light/Airborne divisions, so the proportion of infantry will be even lower than it is today. Tankers and artillerymen don't need improved reflexes or tougher bodies. Rigging 'ware is probably pretty common, though, especially the cheap stuff if you're using SR4. Drones should be ubiquitous in 2070 military use. |
Oh, god. I completely missed this post.
A) Yes, drones should (and I would say 'must') be expected to see heavy use. For the cost of training and arming a similar fleshling metahuman, I've seen some incredible drones (robots, actually) than could do pretty much the same things, and those are without the cost savings associated with economies of scales (IOW, using the construction rules in R3R).
B) I'm not a big fan of cyber being doled out at all (except to Specfor), but given the state of the military and (in the UCAS' case) the fact that they have had some pretty disturbing experiences over the years (and you know how people always say the military is fighting the last war. Well, for the UCAS the last war was inside the Arcology against Deus, and the one before that was in Chicago) that the UCAS may be at the forefront of a sea change in military doctrine as far as enhancements go, but also in terms of drone tech, magic integration (I did the calculations based on some info in New Seattle, and I figured there were 60 mages to a Division in 2060), but as well, in recruitment and retention of those enhanced personnel.
There's other things, but I can't think right offhand. I shall post more when it comes to me.
The only problem I have with battalions of drone tanks, drone artillery, etc. is their vulnerability to ecm. An attacker could have overwhelming force, only to have all their weapons subverted by a superior signal detachment. That's why the opposing team's got eccm, but it seems to leave a lot up to chance.
Eh. That's why I prefer robots. You can give them rather detailed commands, and let them go off autonomously, which mostly eliminates the risk to ECM except in their sharing of tactical information—which human soldiers would equally suffer.
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| The only problem I have with battalions of drone tanks, drone artillery, etc. is their vulnerability to ecm. |
Not that vulnerable—you can hook up LOS systems that, while inconvenient, are just good enough to make it not worthwhile to jam. I really don't see it as a meaningful problem.
~J
Or... Yeah. Dammit, why is it that someone (usually Kage) has to carry my points to their logical end?
Anyway, yeah, there's no reason that wouldn't work if you already have a bunch of drones anyway to field a couple more small airborne/crawler/skimmer/etc. drones controlled by an "officer" drone (or whatever) to be used exclusively as signal amplifiers and signal repeaters.
Anyway, yeah, there's no reason that wouldn't work if you already have a bunch of drones anyway to field a couple more small airborne/crawler/skimmer/etc. drones controlled by an "officer" drone (or whatever) to be used exclusively as signal amplifiers and signal repeaters.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Considering how much time and effort would be required to make the Arc livable again along with those fees it would be cheaper for Renraku to just build a new Arcology somewhere else so they forfeited the building. The only thing they could hope to gain from the Arc are Deus drones and othe rprototype technologu that they could reverse engineer and the risks there are far greater than the rewards. Abandoning it was financially wise. |
Renraku never much wanted the Arcology anyway. It was a pet project of Aneki's that he pushed through the board. When Aneki died, the rest of the corporation was more than willing to abandon that albatross.
Eh. I'm not sure that's reasonable—not wanting it in the first place, sure, but having a multi-hundred-story monument to their failure in the middle of Downtown Seattle?
~J
~J
On the subject of drones, wasn't it Fields of Fire (2058ish) that described the UCAS beginning to field APCs carrying a pair of Steel Lynx and a recharger? They'd send the drones in before the dismounted infantry. I could imagine some proportion of mechanized infantry vehicles (maybe 1/4) devoted to this, with maybe four drones (two replacements) and and massive spools of control cable to let you run them a block or so away and clean out some urban environments without spending any blood.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Eh. I'm not sure that's reasonable—not wanting it in the first place, sure, but having a multi-hundred-story monument to their failure in the middle of Downtown Seattle? ~J |
That's sure not what Renraku PR is saying. They donated the building to the government to house, employ, and educate the underpriviledged. It is a standing memorial to all those who unfortunately lost their lives in the Arcology incident, a memorial that will continue to give back to the community for decades, if not centuries, to come.
/pr off
| QUOTE (Slithery D) |
| On the subject of drones, wasn't it Fields of Fire (2058ish) that described the UCAS beginning to field APCs carrying a pair of Steel Lynx and a recharger? They'd send the drones in before the dismounted infantry. I could imagine some proportion of mechanized infantry vehicles (maybe 1/4) devoted to this, with maybe four drones (two replacements) and and massive spools of control cable to let you run them a block or so away and clean out some urban environments without spending any blood. |
It was in '54 being posted by Winter Rat in the shadow speak box. Yeah he pretty much said they are fielding tons of them with the mechanized infantry units. The operators sit in the APCs and command them in saftey. Every couple hours they come back to be recharged at the APC mounted recharging stations.
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite) |
| That's sure not what Renraku PR is saying. They donated the building to the government to house, employ, and educate the underpriviledged. It is a standing memorial to all those who unfortunately lost their lives in the Arcology incident, a memorial that will continue to give back to the community for decades, if not centuries, to come. /pr off |
Nice spin DE. I was wondering about how they were wording that. thanks.
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite) |
| a memorial that will continue to give back shedim, ghosts, and all manner of toxic, twisted, and every other kind of sick shit you can think of to the community for decades, if not centuries, to come. |
Fixed for you.
yeah but they already made the Arc into the SR version of a dungeon. Now we need something new from it. Wonder what's on those top floors hmm..
| QUOTE (SL James) | ||
Fixed for you. |
You'll never get a job in PR with that attitude, mister!
I already have a job where I shovel bullshit, thank you.
what, you work in customer service?
If I worked in customer service with my temperament, you'd have heard of me already—when I murdered every customer I could get my hands on.
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite) |
| It is a standing memorial to all those who unfortunately lost their lives in the Arcology incident, a memorial that will continue to give back to the community for decades, if not centuries, to come. |
Wouldn't be surprised if they tried to classify it as a charitable donation and tax write-off at the same time either.
The way it's described in RH wouldn't be a charitable writeoff, but a loss writeoff.
SL James:
MET 2000 is NOT the ADL's military. SR Germany still has a seperate military called - The Bundeswehr! Classical national military
As for Cyberware vs. external Add-Ons: They (sadly) don't play a big role in SR but IRL night vision devices are battery-hogs with a still rather lousy field of vision and low depth perception. Not to mention they ruin your un-enhanced night-side and can be tricked by cammo-patterns. Wonder if they solved those problems in SR but doubt it. And one problem they won't solve: Weight!
And then there is the stuff you can't do with external tools that can keep your investment alive:
+ Nano-Surgeons like the Guardian system (A medic is nice IF he can get at you under fire)
+ Bone/Joint-strengthening to prevent breakage and dislocations (Nice if you jump into that Injun-held countryside)
+ Enhanced Digestion (Living of the enemy and his land)
+ Pain-Dampers (Better than the Morphine you lost together with your Corpsman one ambush ago)
And much more. Soldiers, even SpecFarce, is less about Reflex Boosters and more about enhancing the survival chances and reducing the load carried.
MET 2000 is NOT the ADL's military. SR Germany still has a seperate military called - The Bundeswehr! Classical national military
As for Cyberware vs. external Add-Ons: They (sadly) don't play a big role in SR but IRL night vision devices are battery-hogs with a still rather lousy field of vision and low depth perception. Not to mention they ruin your un-enhanced night-side and can be tricked by cammo-patterns. Wonder if they solved those problems in SR but doubt it. And one problem they won't solve: Weight!
And then there is the stuff you can't do with external tools that can keep your investment alive:
+ Nano-Surgeons like the Guardian system (A medic is nice IF he can get at you under fire)
+ Bone/Joint-strengthening to prevent breakage and dislocations (Nice if you jump into that Injun-held countryside)
+ Enhanced Digestion (Living of the enemy and his land)
+ Pain-Dampers (Better than the Morphine you lost together with your Corpsman one ambush ago)
And much more. Soldiers, even SpecFarce, is less about Reflex Boosters and more about enhancing the survival chances and reducing the load carried.
I always wonder if it wouldn't be more cost efficient for national militaries to simply install skillwires and active and knowsofts in their grunts. (I know OOC that means no combat pool, but I doubt most grunts would have much of one anyway) It would drastically cut down on training time and cost, and with the added bonus that at the end of the conscripts 2-3 year period you take the -softs away and he's not a veteran with combat skills of concern to the regime, but just a regular person again.
A regular person with skillwires that you'll never get back, at least not cost-effectively.
Grunts, if anything, will be replaced with drones. I see the non-career soldier becoming an endangered (though not extinct) breed in SR.
~J
Grunts, if anything, will be replaced with drones. I see the non-career soldier becoming an endangered (though not extinct) breed in SR.
~J
| QUOTE (Darkwalker @ Sep 27 2006, 10:41 AM) |
| IRL night vision devices are battery-hogs with a still rather lousy field of vision and low depth perception. Not to mention they ruin your un-enhanced night-side and can be tricked by cammo-patterns. Wonder if they solved those problems in SR but doubt it. And one problem they won't solve: Weight! |
And in Shadowrun they can be put into smartgoggles and sunglasses that have not one single weight, battery, or field of vision problem.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| A regular person with skillwires that you'll never get back, at least not cost-effectively. Grunts, if anything, will be replaced with drones. I see the non-career soldier becoming an endangered (though not extinct) breed in SR. |
My thoughts exactly. When a robot ninja with 10+4D6 init and carrying twin 20mm GLs, has an autonomous tactical network, and ruthenium camoflauging only costs a couple million each, then at the low end people have to ask themselves what the hell is the point of someone just joining for the enlistment bonus and GI Bill benefits when they get out in four years?
Hell, in SR4, you can even stick 'em into contact lenses. Now that's portability.
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